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  1. #1
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    Josh staying, not going o Indy

    Whoa
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  2. #2
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    Per Boston Globe, even though he was announced by Colts. Can you say BB will retire in a year or two and hand the keys to Josh - or maybe make him HC, and be the GM for a year or two. Can BB ever actually give it up.....

    Or if you favor conspiracy theories, then, maybe BB is going to walk now. But that seems remote, ending on one of the worst big games he ever coached?
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Per Boston Globe, even though he was announced by Colts. Can you say BB will retire in a year or two and hand the keys to Josh - or maybe make him HC, and be the GM for a year or two. Can BB ever actually give it up.....

    Or if you favor conspiracy theories, then, maybe BB is going to walk now. But that seems remote, ending on one of the worst big games he ever coached?
    My personal theory is that they promised Josh the gig after the 2018-2019 season. It just doesn’t make sense why he would stay. Obviously happy about it though, I think he’s a very good heir to the throne.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Per Boston Globe, even though he was announced by Colts. Can you say BB will retire in a year or two and hand the keys to Josh - or maybe make him HC, and be the GM for a year or two. Can BB ever actually give it up.....

    Or if you favor conspiracy theories, then, maybe BB is going to walk now. But that seems remote, ending on one of the worst big games he ever coached?
    If the internal issues are real, I don't think this is a favorable outcome: Brady get his blessing from the Krafts to retire when he wants, gets his puppet head coach, perhaps forces BB out, turns the team into a TB12 outpost.

    Under normal circumstances it'd look like a well-devised transition plan. Right now it looks like a TB power move or BB is resigning.... Especially since BB, if he were to become GM in '19, would want to address/make changes at QB.

    To quote Kirk Min from EEI, Brady has won the war.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    If the internal issues are real, I don't think this is a favorable outcome: Brady get his blessing from the Krafts to retire when he wants, gets his puppet head coach, perhaps forces BB out, turns the team into a TB12 outpost.

    Under normal circumstances it'd look like a well-devised transition plan. Right now it looks like a TB power move or BB is resigning.... Especially since BB, if he were to become GM in '19, would want to address/make changes at QB.

    To quote Kirk Min from EEI, Brady has won the war.
    Per every report I have read, this had nothing to do with BB's situation. McDaniels had personal concerns with Indy and after discussing further with his family (and then the Krafts) he decided to stay for the stability of the organization and not wanting to uproot his family again.

    Now, that said, I'm sure McDaniel's is wise enough to see that BB is more than likely at the end of his road (this was the case before any reports of "tension" in the building. I've been saying for a while now that I think BB is done by 2020 (as will Brady). Kraft has apparently known when BB planned on retiring for a while now. This very well may just be an instance where Kraft, now after the season, started to look to the future and made a move to keep a key guy of BB's even if it cost him some money (he "upgraded" McDaniels contract - So he's probably paid like a head coach now)

    Another little caveat that I think is great - according to another GM - "Kraft will take any chance he can to screw the Colts over post deflategate" ---- I love it.

    Now without jumping all over the conspiracy theories that like to be peddled around here of late - this is a great move and just makes too much sense. This is great for now and the future. We now have the ability to see down the road a little bit here.

    I think the Patriots 100% draft a QB early in this draft. With McDaniels in toe he can draft and coach up his QB for when he takes the reigns as HC. I think BB will move from the sidelines to the GM spot...So BB can continue to build rosters as he always has and McDaniels knows how to work with it.

    I think there will still be an element of "loading up" this offseason for a final 2 year push with BB and Brady at the helm. After 2020 BB goes to GM. Brady retires. McDaniels to HC with a QB they have been developing for 2 years.

    This is an absolutely ideal situation here.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Per every report I have read, this had nothing to do with BB's situation. McDaniels had personal concerns with Indy and after discussing further with his family (and then the Krafts) he decided to stay for the stability of the organization and not wanting to uproot his family again.

    Now, that said, I'm sure McDaniel's is wise enough to see that BB is more than likely at the end of his road (this was the case before any reports of "tension" in the building. I've been saying for a while now that I think BB is done by 2020 (as will Brady). Kraft has apparently known when BB planned on retiring for a while now. This very well may just be an instance where Kraft, now after the season, started to look to the future and made a move to keep a key guy of BB's even if it cost him some money (he "upgraded" McDaniels contract - So he's probably paid like a head coach now)

    Another little caveat that I think is great - according to another GM - "Kraft will take any chance he can to screw the Colts over post deflategate" ---- I love it.

    Now without jumping all over the conspiracy theories that like to be peddled around here of late - this is a great move and just makes too much sense. This is great for now and the future. We now have the ability to see down the road a little bit here.

    I think the Patriots 100% draft a QB early in this draft. With McDaniels in toe he can draft and coach up his QB for when he takes the reigns as HC. I think BB will move from the sidelines to the GM spot...So BB can continue to build rosters as he always has and McDaniels knows how to work with it.

    I think there will still be an element of "loading up" this offseason for a final 2 year push with BB and Brady at the helm. After 2020 BB goes to GM. Brady retires. McDaniels to HC with a QB they have been developing for 2 years.

    This is an absolutely ideal situation here.
    If McDaniels had "personal concerns" over uprooting his family or working for Irsay, why would he begin hiring his coaching staff? The D coordinator he plucked from Dallas is now stuck in Indy (where McD would've been the highest paid head coach according to reports).

    And why, according to McDaniels, had the Patriots not addressed his future with the organization until this week?

    Obviously something has changed within the Pats organization. The Butler saga (and notable team leaders, including Brady and Hightower, vouching for him on Instagram) suggest BB might be starting to lose the locker room.

    The ESPN story wasn't just fiction. I see retaining McD as a renewed commitment to TB more than a well-crafted plan between BB, TB, RK.

    *IF Belichick ends up being traded/resigns and Josh serves as Brady's puppet for the next 2-3 years, it's one of the worst possible outcomes for Pats fans IMO.
    Last edited by elements1985; 02-07-2018 at 08:19 AM.

  7. #7
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    If McDaniels had "personal concerns" over uprooting his family or working for Irsay, why would he begin hiring his coaching staff? The D coordinator he plucked from Dallas is now stuck in Indy (where McD would've been the highest paid head coach according to reports).
    Source? Haven't heard that. Reports I've seen suggest he'd be top 5 but not near Gruden and BB. Either way, people can have a change of heart once things start to become a reality. I think it's absolutely reasonable to believe its what happened here.

    And why, according to McDaniels, had the Patriots not addressed his future with the organization until this week?
    Because they were focused on the season? Who cares really. Maybe they assumed they couldn't get him back because they didn't have a HC position to offer him. But then he expressed some concerns and Kraft said what about this....Stay here and we'll pay you like a head coach?

    Obviously something has changed within the Pats organization. The Butler saga (and notable team leaders, including Brady and Hightower, vouching for him on Instagram) suggest BB might be starting to lose the locker room.
    Vouching for and supporting are 2 different things. Brady supports all his teammates. He's never said a bad word about one of them. Great, he "liked" his instagram post and called him a great player and friend. That doesn't mean anything really.

    The ESPN story wasn't just fiction. I see retaining McD as a renewed commitment to TB more than a well-crafted plan between BB, TB, RK.
    I don't think it's not a commitment to Brady, but I also think this was the best move organizationally. Now when BB decides to hang it up, you have the next guy in place already. Kraft has admitting to knowing when BB planned on hanging it up...So why not include Josh and say listen. Stay here. We love you. Your family is here. We'll pay you like a HC all you have to do is wait for BB to step aside...We'll let BB decide when, but when it happens your here and the job is yours. Now they can draft a QB this year, let McD hand pick and groom him for 2-3 years and he can be Josh's QB once he takes the reigns. It just makes sense logically without any conspiracy theory in place.

    I also think there's even more at play here. Word is BB is completely loyal to Robert Kraft but not so much to Jonathan. Eventually Robert will hand everything to Jonathan. My prediction here is everything changes at one time but they're all working together to make that transition as smooth as possible because they're loyal and respect each other.

    Robert is 76. I can see him going until 80 while slowly pushing more onto Jonathan. But the transition will be complete by the time Robert is 80.

    So 2020 - Brady and Belichick are off the sidelines. BB goes to GM for Roberts final 2 years and McDaniels first 2 years as HC with a young QB. Finally BB steps aside in 2024 and Robert fully hands the reigns to Jonathan.

    *IF Belichick ends up being traded/resigns and Josh serves as Brady's puppet for the next 2-3 years, it's one of the worst possible outcomes for Pats fans IMO.
    Only time will tell but this seems absurd to me. Believe what you want, but I HIGHLY doubt this ends up being what happens. As I've said in previous posts, I think BB plans on staying until 2020. Josh will assume his HC spot. BB will be a pure GM for 2-3 years after that and then step aside at 70-71 years old.
    Last edited by Oakmont_4; 02-07-2018 at 09:23 AM.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Source? Haven't heard that. Reports I've seen suggest he'd be top 5 but not near Gruden and BB. Either way, people can have a change of heart once things start to become a reality. I think it's absolutely reasonable to believe its what happened here.

    Because they were focused on the season? Who cares really. Maybe they assumed they couldn't get him back because they didn't have a HC position to offer him. But then he expressed some concerns and Kraft said what about this....Stay here and we'll pay you like a head coach?

    Vouching for and supporting are 2 different things. Brady supports all his teammates. He's never said a bad word about one of them. Great, he "liked" his instagram post and called him a great player and friend. That doesn't mean anything really.

    I don't think it's not a commitment to Brady, but I also think this was the best move organizationally. Now when BB decides to hang it up, you have the next guy in place already. Kraft has admitting to knowing when BB planned on hanging it up...So why not include Josh and say listen. Stay here. We love you. Your family is here. We'll pay you like a HC all you have to do is wait for BB to step aside...We'll let BB decide when, but when it happens your here and the job is yours. Now they can draft a QB this year, let McD hand pick and groom him for 2-3 years and he can be Josh's QB once he takes the reigns. It just makes sense logically without any conspiracy theory in place.

    I also think there's even more at play here. Word is BB is completely loyal to Robert Kraft but not so much to Jonathan. Eventually Robert will hand everything to Jonathan. My prediction here is everything changes at one time but they're all working together to make that transition as smooth as possible because they're loyal and respect each other.

    Robert is 76. I can see him going until 80 while slowly pushing more onto Jonathan. But the transition will be complete by the time Robert is 80.

    So 2020 - Brady and Belichick are off the sidelines. BB goes to GM for Roberts final 2 years and McDaniels first 2 years as HC with a young QB. Finally BB steps aside in 2024 and Robert fully hands the reigns to Jonathan.

    Only time will tell but this seems absurd to me. Believe what you want, but I HIGHLY doubt this ends up being what happens. As I've said in previous posts, I think BB plans on staying until 2020. Josh will assume his HC spot. BB will be a pure GM for 2-3 years after that and then step aside at 70-71 years old.
    I mean seriously, talk about head in the sand. Did you bother to listen to Brandon Browner's Instagram video? Expletive-laden rant that said said BB was on a power trip, sitting Butler was blow back for not signing a team-friendly contract etc. etc. etc. And then the team's Captain liked it (Hightower, one of BB's guys...this generation's Tedy Bruschi). Then you're response is, as usual, is nothing to see here.

    On the more innocuous Brady comment/like to Butler's post. When have we ever seen him inject himself in a battle between coach/player? BB's point is Butler was struggling and a liability. TB on the other hand called him a "great player". Obvious mixed messages IMO.

    If you think LT or DL is this team's biggest issue, that this is some well-contrived transition plan, then I have some oceanfront property in AZ for you. There's more evidence to suggest that there are internal problems on this team than BB is going to be GM till 71.
    Last edited by elements1985; 02-07-2018 at 10:01 AM.

  9. #9
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    I mean seriously, talk about head in the sand. Did you bother to listen to Brandon Browner's Instagram video? Expletive-laden rant that said said BB was on a power trip, sitting Butler was blow back for not signing a team-friendly contract etc. etc. etc. And then the team's Captain liked it (Hightower, one of BB's guys...this generation's Tedy Bruschi). Then you're response is, as usual, is nothing to see here.
    Yes, Brandon Browner, the true gauge of the Patriots HAHAHA. Hightower was also outspoken when Jamie Collins was dealt...Then afterwards he resigned here and supposedly took less to stay. So yeah, you're right, what Hightower says is the end all be all of how the team and he is feeling. Give me a break. Football players are a fraternity. They support each other, even if they don't necessarily agree with everything they do. They still support one another. And comparing Hightower to Bruschi is a joke. Not on the same level. Hightower has openly taken little shots at BB here and there over the past couple years. Bruschi never did. Hightower a good player...But he's not a "BB guy".

    On the more innocuous Brady comment/like to Butler's post. When have we ever seen him inject himself in a battle between coach/player? BB's point is Butler was struggling and a liability. TB on the other hand called him a "great player". Obvious mixed messages IMO.
    Yup, he supports him. He didn't interject into anything. He simply liked a post by a teammate and said he was a friend and great player. That doesn't necessarily mean Brady is anti BB. He's pro Butler, but he can be pro Butler and pro BB at the same time. Nobody will probably ever know anything, but to say that Brady undoubtedly is taking Butler side and disagreeing with BB is a stretch.

    If you think LT or DL is this team's biggest issue, that this is some well-contrived transition plan, then I have some oceanfront property in AZ for you. There's more evidence to suggest that there are internal problems on this team than BB is going to be GM till 71.
    No, there's speculation and conjecture. That's it. Your "evidence" doesn't exist. Its fabricated based off actual happenings and someone speculating into the incident. Now I'm not naive enough to think the Patriots would come out openly and say there's a problem, but low and behold here we are and AFTER ALL THIS SPECULATION about this is the end...We're now heading into 2018 with BB, Brady and McDaniels in fold. If everything was "so bad" as being reported, actual evidence would be 1 of this trio not returning for 2018. But that isn't the case.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Yes, Brandon Browner, the true gauge of the Patriots HAHAHA. Hightower was also outspoken when Jamie Collins was dealt...Then afterwards he resigned here and supposedly took less to stay. So yeah, you're right, what Hightower says is the end all be all of how the team and he is feeling. Give me a break. Football players are a fraternity. They support each other, even if they don't necessarily agree with everything they do. They still support one another. And comparing Hightower to Bruschi is a joke. Not on the same level. Hightower has openly taken little shots at BB here and there over the past couple years. Bruschi never did. Hightower a good player...But he's not a "BB guy".

    Yup, he supports him. He didn't interject into anything. He simply liked a post by a teammate and said he was a friend and great player. That doesn't necessarily mean Brady is anti BB. He's pro Butler, but he can be pro Butler and pro BB at the same time. Nobody will probably ever know anything, but to say that Brady undoubtedly is taking Butler side and disagreeing with BB is a stretch.

    No, there's speculation and conjecture. That's it. Your "evidence" doesn't exist. Its fabricated based off actual happenings and someone speculating into the incident. Now I'm not naive enough to think the Patriots would come out openly and say there's a problem, but low and behold here we are and AFTER ALL THIS SPECULATION about this is the end...We're now heading into 2018 with BB, Brady and McDaniels in fold. If everything was "so bad" as being reported, actual evidence would be 1 of this trio not returning for 2018. But that isn't the case.
    Nobody argued Browner has the pulse of the Pats locker room. Only that his video was pretty incendiary towards BB ... and pretty telling that a team captain like Hightower would endorse it. Tedy Bruschi doing the same would be unconscionable.

    On that false parallel between Dont'a's comments on the Collins trade:

    “The best defensive player we’ve got, the most athletic guy on the team,” Dont’a Hightower said. “It’s business. It’s more of a business than it is football. I don’t know why it happened the way it did.”
    Compared to (the implication being it's not business, but ego):

    "A locker room was divided pregame, most yds ever given up in a SB game, and your best defender over the past 3 seasons. Doesn’t get a snap,” Browner wrote on Instagram after the game. “You were hurt/burnt where he was needed tonight. #foolishpride.”

    “That dude done started every game for that team, you feel me, since he picked off that [expletive] ball off. You play every game of the season but the Super Bowl. You feel me? I can’t rock with that.”
    Full video here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BezMO1tDd8j/

    TB publicly called Malcolm Butler a great player -- just after the coached benched him on the biggest stage on the grounds that he's not. Obvious contradiction. So much a liability was Butler @ DB that he could only play special teams! Brady chiming in, contradicting the coach, does not help Belichick's cause. He's far too calculated (and influential) to not understand how that might inflame a volatile situation.

    Right, here we are < 3 days into the off-season and no changes. So you're right, let's beat our chest. And when contrary news happens, we just flip-flop so going with the team is always perceived as being out ahead.
    Last edited by elements1985; 02-07-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    Nobody argued Browner has the pulse of the Pats locker room. Only that his video was pretty incendiary towards BB ... and pretty telling that a team captain like Hightower would endorse it. Tedy Bruschi doing the same would be unconscionable.

    On that false parallel between Dont'a's comments on the Collins trade:



    Compared to (the implication being it's not business, but ego):



    Full video here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BezMO1tDd8j/

    TB publicly called Malcolm Butler a great player -- just after the coached benched him on the biggest stage on the grounds that he's not. Obvious contradiction. So much a liability was Butler @ DB that he could only play special teams! Brady chiming in, contradicting the coach, does not help Belichick's cause. He's far too calculated (and influential) to not understand how that might inflame a volatile situation.

    Right, here we are < 3 days into the off-season and no changes. So you're right, let's beat our chest. And when contrary news happens, we just flip-flop so going with the team is always perceived as being out ahead.
    We're not going anywhere here...Posting information I already know doesn't help your point and there really isn't anywhere to go here because it's all speculative.

    I'll just say this...I won't flop on it...If BB is gone this year, I'll own up to my stance (not going to happen) if the franchise implodes next year with all sorts of internal issues, I'll also own my wrong interpretation of events and finally give credit to your conspiracy theories. But if that doesn't happen, what will you do?

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    We're not going anywhere here...Posting information I already know doesn't help your point and there really isn't anywhere to go here because it's all speculative.

    I'll just say this...I won't flop on it...If BB is gone this year, I'll own up to my stance (not going to happen) if the franchise implodes next year with all sorts of internal issues, I'll also own my wrong interpretation of events and finally give credit to your conspiracy theories. But if that doesn't happen, what will you do?
    I never said the franchise would implode overnight. My argument is three-fold:

    1) That the internal issues between TB, BB, RK are very real -- continue to manifest in incidents like removing Guerrero, Jimmy G trade, Butler benching etc. The commonality: BB asserting his authority that's likely under attack.

    2) Retaining McDaniels suggests more a renewed commitment to TB from ownership (siding with QB over coach) than a group plan devised with Belichick.

    C) Having head coach McD serve as a proxy/surrogate for the franchise player will both unravel the Patriots culture and make any possible checks and balances on the star QB, as he ages and requires more checks, impossible.

    Brady will not just bow out on his own volition because business interests are tethered to his decision to keep playing. Contorting a system to a player is where organizations typically die. This is the heart of the Belichick philosophy.

    On C, those effects aren't felt overnight. It's a typically a slow regression of 11-5 --> 9-7 --> 7-9. Etc. It would probably go kinda like Pete Carrol: the hardass goes, everyone loosens up and then the culture becomes untenable.

    If BB does stick around as GM till ~71, I'll tip my cap to you and admit I overstated the the reports.
    Last edited by elements1985; 02-07-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    I never said the franchise would implode overnight. My argument is three-fold:

    1) That the internal issues between TB, BB, RK are very real -- continue to manifest in incidents like removing Guerrero, Jimmy G trade, Butler benching etc. The commonality: BB asserting his authority that's likely under attack.

    2) Retaining McDaniels suggests more a renewed commitment to TB from ownership (siding with QB over coach) than a group plan devised with Belichick.

    C) Having head coach McD serve as a proxy/surrogate for the franchise player will both unravel the Patriots culture and make any possible checks and balances on the star QB, as he ages and requires more checks, impossible.

    Brady will not just bow out on his own volition because business interests are tethered to his decision to keep playing. Contorting a system to a player is where organizations typically die. This is the heart of the Belichick philosophy.

    On C, those effects aren't felt overnight. It's a typically a slow regression of 11-5 --> 9-7 --> 7-9. Etc. It would probably go kinda like Pete Carrol: the hardass goes, everyone loosens up and then the culture becomes untenable.

    If BB does stick around as GM till ~71, I'll tip my cap to you and admit I overstated the the reports.
    Holy convoluted answer. Hedge your bets much?

    How about this...If the Patriots regress next season...and I'll define regressing as under 12 wins and not making the AFCCG...Then you admit you overstated these reports.

    In my estimation, if things are as dire as you state, the Patriots will not win 12+ games and make an AFCCG under dire circumstances like that. If they do, everything is overstated here.

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    The only way BB can prove disdain is retire while under contract. Then un-retire after his contract term is over, that way Kraft gets no draft picks.

    Or he could retire earlier than he had planned which isn't possible to prove.

    Kraft isn't going anywhere.

    TB is fighting time, his final foe w/ limited access to his binky.

    There could be issues between these powerful men with big egos that's tough to prove w/o the most obvious of clues.

    The scuttlebutt around the team before the XXXX story was notable for being widespread and fairly consistent.

    Doesn't do much good now to untangle it, maybe when more data comes in.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Holy convoluted answer. Hedge your bets much?

    How about this...If the Patriots regress next season...and I'll define regressing as under 12 wins and not making the AFCCG...Then you admit you overstated these reports.

    In my estimation, if things are as dire as you state, the Patriots will not win 12+ games and make an AFCCG under dire circumstances like that. If they do, everything is overstated here.
    Why is next season the benchmark? A team with this much success doesn't just fall apart overnight, especially in such a garbage league.

    The question is years 2 or 3 when TB starts to regress and these chickens that RK hatched come home to roost. This assumes BB is gone.

    I don't know why you continue to oversimplify things but this isn't a simple discussion.

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