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  1. #31
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    Oct 2011
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    Bottom line is, we aren't winning in 2018.

    This team is a total mess. Old aging players that will clog our payroll and lineup for another few years (Tulo, Morales and Martin). Smoak who is a hit or miss. Outfield is a mess.

    Pitching is the thing that will have to get us over the hump this year as we have probably one of the worst lineups in baseball (JD is really the only saviour).

    I would rather do a quick 1-2 year rebuild until Vlady and Bichette get here and then go crazy again in the free agent market, but they are doing it this way... will help to band aid the lineup.

    Would rather just give Alford a try here and see what he has unless you plan to trade him for some pitching help.

    Not really excited at all about this year... just because we are utterly directionless...

  2. #32
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanyo View Post
    Bottom line is, we aren't winning in 2018.

    This team is a total mess. Old aging players that will clog our payroll and lineup for another few years (Tulo, Morales and Martin). Smoak who is a hit or miss. Outfield is a mess.

    Pitching is the thing that will have to get us over the hump this year as we have probably one of the worst lineups in baseball (JD is really the only saviour).

    I would rather do a quick 1-2 year rebuild until Vlady and Bichette get here and then go crazy again in the free agent market, but they are doing it this way... will help to band aid the lineup.

    Would rather just give Alford a try here and see what he has unless you plan to trade him for some pitching help.

    Not really excited at all about this year... just because we are utterly directionless...
    I agree with most of this post but there is no harm in giving a young player with all the tools an opportunity. If he pans out then he will be contributing to the vlad/bo team. These Grich and Diaz moves are rebuild moves.

    Encarnacion/Bautista/Smoak were all of the same cut. I would be upset if we gave up much but its hard to be down on any of the moves thus far. When AA was doing the slow rebuild he did the same thing. The only thing they could do that would make the directon more clear is sell the big guys but that isnt happening until the deadline. If we can get some top100 guys at the deadline then i will be satisfied with the rebuild process.

  3. #33
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    Jan 2009
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    Utterly directionless eh?... There is more than 'all-in' and 'total rebuild' when it comes to a teams direction. The Jays are in the trying to compete while building up the farm phase. The off season is far from over too. Who's to say they don't make a couple more moves before opening day? They now have major league caliber depth at every position, and shouldn't have to field lineups with 3+ guys who can't post an OPS over .650 on a daily basis. One more major league starter to keep Biagini out of the rotation and I really like our rotation depth (along with our top 4 starters for a playoff series if we make it there) too.

  4. #34
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    Jan 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Utterly directionless eh?... There is more than 'all-in' and 'total rebuild' when it comes to a teams direction. The Jays are in the trying to compete while building up the farm phase. The off season is far from over too. Who's to say they don't make a couple more moves before opening day? They now have major league caliber depth at every position, and shouldn't have to field lineups with 3+ guys who can't post an OPS over .650 on a daily basis. One more major league starter to keep Biagini out of the rotation and I really like our rotation depth (along with our top 4 starters for a playoff series if we make it there) too.

    I totally agree with this post...

  5. #35
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    Still though... even with another pitcher we arent making the playoffs unless some of these guys break out or if some of our older guys have career years. i think that is the frustration you are feeling around here. we need to get lucky to compete. Depth doesnt win championships - and going by last season neither does pitching.

  6. #36
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    With the grind of a 162 game season, depth is a major factor in a teams success. Especially when you have guys like Travis and Tulonpn your team.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    With the grind of a 162 game season, depth is a major factor in a teams success. Especially when you have guys like Travis and Tulonpn your team.
    Yeah but we're talking championships. We dont have a playoff drought that we are just hoping to snap here. I want a parade/riot.

  8. #38
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    You can't go "all-in" every season...or even every 2nd season. Sooner or later you need to rebuild the farm system, spit out a few home grown position players and roll the team over. The only homegrown player in our projected everyday lineup right now is Pillar. (Travis was traded for and never even played in our system before making his debut).


    They only had like 25M to work with when the season started thanks to the bloated Tulo and Martin contracts. They are paying those guys like 25% of the team budget and neither one is an all-star caliber player any more. Take 10M from each of those guys and they could afford just about anyone on the market....but that is not the hand they were dealt at the beginning of the off season.

    With all of the holes they had to fill, how would you have liked them to do it? Spend all 25M on 1 big name? Trade away Vladdy and Bichette too and go "all-in" again after winning just 76 games last year?

  9. #39
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Still though... even with another pitcher we arent making the playoffs unless some of these guys break out or if some of our older guys have career years. i think that is the frustration you are feeling around here. we need to get lucky to compete. Depth doesnt win championships - and going by last season neither does pitching.
    Don't forget. Sanchez, Stroman, Estrada, and Happ were leading the league's best rotation in 2016. Sure they were injury free in 2016 and then the opposite happened in 2017 with only Stroman be 100% healthy. The Jays 2017 pitching doesn't even compare to the 2016 pitching.

    I know the Jays also had Dickey and Liriano as the 5th and 6th starter for some serious SP depth in 2016. It's not to say that if the Jays can grab a decent pitcher and plug him in as the 5th starter this team will be interesting in 2018. I wouldn't hold my breath on them making the playoffs, although they still might be competitive.

    I know I'm omitting the anemic offense from last season as well in this post.
    Last edited by FLeays; 01-22-2018 at 06:46 PM.

  10. #40
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    You can't go "all-in" every season...or even every 2nd season. Sooner or later you need to rebuild the farm system, spit out a few home grown position players and roll the team over. The only homegrown player in our projected everyday lineup right now is Pillar. (Travis was traded for and never even played in our system before making his debut).


    They only had like 25M to work with when the season started thanks to the bloated Tulo and Martin contracts. They are paying those guys like 25% of the team budget and neither one is an all-star caliber player any more. Take 10M from each of those guys and they could afford just about anyone on the market....but that is not the hand they were dealt at the beginning of the off season.

    With all of the holes they had to fill, how would you have liked them to do it? Spend all 25M on 1 big name? Trade away Vladdy and Bichette too and go "all-in" again after winning just 76 games last year?
    Gotta disagree with your take. Yeah Tulo and Martin are paid a ton of money, but this FO boxed themselves in by sinking 19 million/year in Pearce and Morales last off-season. Now they're spending minor league assets AND money to trade for depth players and breakout candidates and are down to their last 10-15 million in spending money and can't afford players like Yu Darvish or J.D. Martinez because they've priced themselves out of the fun. I mean, the team had around 20-25 million at the beginning of the off-season and have so far spent 15~ on depth players, some of whom may not even be on the 25-man when the season starts.

  11. #41
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    Nov 2008
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    Depth does matter. Part of the reason the team sucked was because bad players took up a lot of at bats. I'll admit there is a possibility Diaz sucks, but even if he plays like he did last year he's an upgrade over Goins. Just replacing below replacement players with replacement ones can add a couple wins.
    If Grichuk's problem was fixable I would be more optimistic. His power is hard to deny, but with **** plate discipline it's hard to put up good numbers. That being said he's an upgrade even if he did what he did last year. I thought the Diaz and Solarte moves would allow them to go big on outfield. I'm somewhat underwhelmed there. I can't help but think they could have topped SF for Cutch. Maybe they surprise us and go bigger somewhere else. I think this looks like a low 80 win team now, which isn't bad.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Yeah but we're talking championships. We dont have a playoff drought that we are just hoping to snap here. I want a parade/riot.
    True enough, but itís going to take a lot for this club to become a championship contender. Hopefully they play competitive ball but realize they are out of it come July and move pieces like Happ, Estrada, Donaldson, Granderson and Pillar

  13. #43
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    Jul 2007
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    2,094
    Flexibility is undeniably improved, but certainly not solid and stacked enough for a serious run. Too dependent on overall luck, individual breakouts and team health.

    Quantity over Quality. 2018 is an insurance policy scheme thats just half-axxing IMO because Granderson 5m, Pearce 5m, Morales 11m could have been spent more wisely on a significant impact bat or SP, especially when so many young OF options are available in-house and no DH spot available to rotate tired players around.

    Their conventional style tries to cover every angle and position for now and future, but its too safe and cheap to convince a championship calibre team anytime soon.
    Last edited by superfio; 01-22-2018 at 11:59 PM.

  14. #44
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    Oct 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Utterly directionless eh?... There is more than 'all-in' and 'total rebuild' when it comes to a teams direction. The Jays are in the trying to compete while building up the farm phase. The off season is far from over too. Who's to say they don't make a couple more moves before opening day? They now have major league caliber depth at every position, and shouldn't have to field lineups with 3+ guys who can't post an OPS over .650 on a daily basis. One more major league starter to keep Biagini out of the rotation and I really like our rotation depth (along with our top 4 starters for a playoff series if we make it there) too.

    YEs... Im sticking to my original comments...they are directionless...depth is great but the team as constructed isn't going to come near winning anything.

    But hey your right, maybe... just maybe we might get pitching help, so I'll reserve my judgement until spring training...

  15. #45
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    Jan 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by LechWalesa View Post
    Gotta disagree with your take. Yeah Tulo and Martin are paid a ton of money, but this FO boxed themselves in by sinking 19 million/year in Pearce and Morales last off-season. Now they're spending minor league assets AND money to trade for depth players and breakout candidates and are down to their last 10-15 million in spending money and can't afford players like Yu Darvish or J.D. Martinez because they've priced themselves out of the fun. I mean, the team had around 20-25 million at the beginning of the off-season and have so far spent 15~ on depth players, some of whom may not even be on the 25-man when the season starts.

    So the problem is guys they signed last year ? Sweet merciful man. Last year was an entirely different off season. So they weren't supposed to sign anyone last year to more than 1 year after they had just made the playoffs twice so they could save money for this season? For players who probably wouldn't even consider signing here? We weren't even on Darvish's short list, and I don't think we are winning a bidding war with Boston for Martinez. Basing any strategy around being able to sign those guys is doomed from the start.

    Pearce is a solid versatile bench player getting paid ~6M, I don't see how he can be part of any financial issue..He played 5 positions the year before, slashed .288/.374/.492 and is historically a lefty killer. On a team that was looking to compete last year, it was a solid signing at the time....and still is.

    The Morales signing wasn't the best, but he was coming off back to back solid years in KC. IF he had posted an OBP of .340-.350 instead of .308 and striking out a career high pace people wouldn't be complaining about him. If he stinks against RHP again he won't be worth the 11M, but it won't be as much wasted money as either Tulo or Martin was last year.

    I can't believe you don't think the money issue for this team is the pair of 20M dollar players giving them 5M dollar player performances. Can you imagine how different this team looks right now if those 2 guys were actually expected to play like the all-stars they once were? Tulo would be hitting 3/4 and Martin would be either 2nd, 5th or 6th.This team isn't built around Morales and Pearce. It is built around JD, Tulo and Martin. They are the vets who know how to win, and the guys getting paid to produce like all-stars and carry this team. Those type of players need to hit to be worth anything close to what they are getting paid.


    They essentially threw away 30+ Million on Martin and Tulo last year...and another 17M on Bautista. That is almost 1/3 of their payroll down the crapper last season. How many teams can afford to build a contender when a third of their payroll is essentially thrown away?

    What "boxed them in" this off season is having a SS and a 2B that they can't count on to play more than 60 games in a season, and no suitable in house replacements for the 5th SP, LF or RF. Sure Hernandez and Alford could have filled those roles, but what if both them fell on their face? Were they going to go with Carrera and Pearce?

    If Tulo and Travis could be counted on than they wouldn't have needed to find 2 more everyday quality players to play behind them instead of just letting Goins fill the backup MI role. I still can't believe they managed to find 2 starting quality players though who get paid like back ups with several seasons of control......and one they can also stash in AAA on opening day to save the roster spot ...and did it without giving up more in the way of prospects. I think they have done a masterful job this off season so far. They haven't overpaid anyone, and they have kept their financial flexibility for the next few off seasons when they should have a lot more money to play with.

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