Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: Is Stephen Curry more unguardable than Shaq?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes (look at his efficiency).

    1 5.00%
  • No (screw efficiency).

    19 95.00%
  • Other (ban my account if I don't write player's name in thread).

    0 0%
Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 166
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sin City Raiders
    Posts
    33,214
    Quote Originally Posted by aman_13 View Post
    Explain.
    LOL not happening

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    26,761
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I mean using ppg and TS% how does Harden compare to Shaq? Is he as unguardable? Think of guys like Dantley or Iceman throughout history and if they are normally considered on this level?

    I think people are misunderstanding the difference between stopping a player (how you guard them) and their production. If I am doubling you all game and you still get the same points and efficiency as someone going 1v1 that's a bit different. Shaq's production was slowed as teams had to drastically change and gameplan for him. This imo is part of the reason why such a young Kobe had one of his best post seasons ever in 01, the attention Shaq was getting. This isn't to say Curry doesn't also have a big impact but I just don't think we are gonna find it using ppg and TS% when stuff like that gives Harden arguments...
    You combine it with the fact that they win when Curry is on the court at unprecedented levels. That the eFG% of his teammates skyrocket when he's on the court. That he's a far better playmaker than Shaq. Etc, etc. If Shaq was this much more dominant, why don't the #'s back it up?

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,314
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    You combine it with the fact that they win when Curry is on the court at unprecedented levels. That the eFG% of his teammates skyrocket when he's on the court. That he's a far better playmaker than Shaq. Etc, etc. If Shaq was this much more dominant, why don't the #'s back it up?
    Why didn't Curry win FMVP and have great numbers? Cleveland actively tried to stop him at all costs, even the expense of leaving others like Iggy wide open.

    I do agree that Curry is one of the players with a major gravity though so it's not like I was trying to say he is the same as others, just that those don't really do much justice to the discussion. I have talked about how Curry pulls people away from the hoop unlike Lebron in that other thread and now in this discussion it applies to Shaq too, it is a very interesting dynamic. I do think that Curry has a very favorable cast for a superstar with a playmaking, spacing, DPOY versatile big and an elite 3/D type wing. This in part might help open things up a little for him as well within this system but there is no doubt he is the engine (I just wonder if similar player was put in would they have similar effect, think CP3/Harden? I do think it boosts them at least in a statistical sense as that team is reliant on a creator like that). At an individual level I think defenses shifted more for Shaq than maybe other player I have ever seen except for at times Lebron and now Curry (think Durant open lane as two defenders run to stop the 3).

    The issue is now you add Durant and it is like impossible to tell. It's easy for everyone out there because you have to split that pressure up between all 4 of them. It just isn't remotely the same in that sense and the numbers clearly inflated for both Curry and Durant last post season due to it. That's not Curry being way more unarguable this season, that's just having a better cast to take pressure off.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    19
    No.. Shaq was the most dominant player to ever play.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,252
    So if I understand the argument, it's "Shaq was much more unguardable than Curry but he just didn't score significantly more points or do so on better efficiency"? If so, then it's as gopher said, teams strategize against Shaq changing the way the game was played to a greater degree than Curry has changed the way teams plan their defenses for him?

    I'm pretty open-minded, but I am not seeing the logic in any of this. If someone is so "unguardable" that means a player will score regardless of defenses thrown at him and do so efficiently. I hear people say Curry is "easy" to guard but if you look at his head-to-head numbers with the elite defenders of players mentioned, he STILL lit them up. Sure, Shaq did the same with centers in LA... he just didn't do it as efficiently as Curry. Is the other argument, "Curry is easy to guard, teams just choose to let him score almost as much as Shaq but on better efficiency" ??? That is absurd...
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    If Klay is on fire, GS does not need or miss Curry what so ever.
    Are you talking about which team is more stacked or which player is more unguardable?
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

    San Antonio Spurs

    PG: Chris Paul | Patty Mills | Jose Calderon
    SG: Khris Middleton | J.J. Redick | Iman Shumpert
    SF: DeMarre Carroll | P.J. Tucker | Anthony Morrow
    PF: Tim Duncan | Carlos Boozer | Kyle O'Quinn
    C : Al Horford | Rudy Gobert

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    21,504
    Do we need all these Curry threads?

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bushwood Country Club
    Posts
    73,420
    nope. Shaq literally couldn't be stopped 1-1, at any point. His FT shooting is the only thing that holds his efficiency from being godly. I get that Curry is a magnet for defenses, and makes defenses quiver. But Shaq got the western conference to change rosters to try and contain him. Teams stacked extra bigs for more fouls, and teams used gang tackling tactics on him. 1-1, Shaq is the most unguardable player in history.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    13,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Do we need all these Curry threads?
    No. We should swap them with Wade threads.
    RIP lol, please!

    8/1/2011 - 01/28/2018

    You may not be with us anymore but your name, legacy, and what you stood for will last forever!


  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    43,085
    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    I want to see at least one more dominant post season from Chef before I say he's as unguardable as Shaq. And even then it's kind of tough to say since they now have Durant on the team.
    This. Shaq would feast on today's slim fast league

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    43,085
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    So if I understand the argument, it's "Shaq was much more unguardable than Curry but he just didn't score significantly more points or do so on better efficiency"? If so, then it's as gopher said, teams strategize against Shaq changing the way the game was played to a greater degree than Curry has changed the way teams plan their defenses for him?

    I'm pretty open-minded, but I am not seeing the logic in any of this. If someone is so "unguardable" that means a player will score regardless of defenses thrown at him and do so efficiently. I hear people say Curry is "easy" to guard but if you look at his head-to-head numbers with the elite defenders of players mentioned, he STILL lit them up. Sure, Shaq did the same with centers in LA... he just didn't do it as efficiently as Curry. Is the other argument, "Curry is easy to guard, teams just choose to let him score almost as much as Shaq but on better efficiency" ??? That is absurd...
    The logic is simply this, the league tried to minimize Shaqs impact, it largely failed whereas the league has done wonders for currys prototype and he's still massively underwhelmed in the post season.

    Shaq today would be the most efficient finisher we've ever seen.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Swinging from Bruce Bochy's sack
    Posts
    48,377
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    If that were true we would expect Shaq's efficiency to be far better than Curry's though, correct? Just looking at playoffs alone we see that Shaq had an eFG% of 56.3%. Curry? eFG% of 56.2% Through their prime (99-03 for Shaq and 14-17 for Curry), 54.5% for Shaq and 57.3% for Curry. That's on 27 ppg in 36 minutes for Curry. 29 ppg in 41+ minutes for Shaq. Now factor in that Curry's the best FT shooter of All Time and Shaq shot 50% from the stripe in this period. So, why don't the stats flesh out the narrative?
    Not necessarily, unless we disagree on how we define what we mean by unguardable here. To me, if you are unguardable that means defenders can't keep you in front, and a defenders efforts to control your movement and actions are futile. An unguardable player to me get off the shots they want most of the time, but if they make the basket or not isn't a factor to me, only the open look is important in itself.

    In other words making the basket doesn't tell me he's unguardable, getting the look he wants does.



    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    26,761
    Quote Originally Posted by lol, please View Post
    Not necessarily, unless we disagree on how we define what we mean by unguardable here. To me, if you are unguardable that means defenders can't keep you in front, and a defenders efforts to control your movement and actions are futile. An unguardable player to me get off the shots they want most of the time, but if they make the basket or not isn't a factor to me, only the open look is important in itself.

    In other words making the basket doesn't tell me he's unguardable, getting the look he wants does.



    Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
    Gotchya. So not necessarily better at doing anything with his chances, but more unstoppable in the ability to get an easy look? Well it's one way to look at it I suppose. I guess in that sense Yao Ming has a case over Jordan also. That MJ was taking a loot of tough/contested mid-range shots and acrobatic finishes around the rim to try to avoid the pressure. With Yao there was really nothing you could do when he was set in that paint. And good luck blocking his silky 15 footer.


    For fun I wish we had raw +/- back to the 90's (or does anybody?) for reg season and playoffs. I see it from the mid 2000's [where it was some of the Pistons and KG/Duncan/Dirk for the most part], then in 08/09 'Bron took over until the 12/13 season [led each year]. They only have playoffs since '13 where I'm looking but he has a 2nd, 4th, 1st and 3rd on their Finals runs. Curry has led the reg season this year and the past 4 seasons outside of one 2nd. Overall it's the biggest net +/- in a 5 year stretch in history even if he didn't play another game this year (he leads the league by a huge margin already despite missing weeks of action). In the Finals runs he was 2nd (by 1 point), not close in 15/16 (missed a host of games so makes sense) and 1st last season. Noticing a trend.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,314
    Ya the changing of zone rules and hack a shaq are examples of the league changing a bit with him in mind. You have the obvious amount of fouls/FT's he racked up which can change a game (he gets best big in foul trouble). Teams both in game by loading up on him and off the court by grabbing bigs to rack up those fouls clearly had him in mind. He also lead the playoffs in ppg in 2000 and 01 also had over 30ppg, so he was putting up these huge numbers despite all of these factors too.

    This isn't a knock on Curry but there is an argument Shaq was the most unguardable player in history with everything teams needed to slow him down.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    23,792
    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    You combine it with the fact that they win when Curry is on the court at unprecedented levels. That the eFG% of his teammates skyrocket when he's on the court. That he's a far better playmaker than Shaq. Etc, etc. If Shaq was this much more dominant, why don't the #'s back it up?
    For the same reason Shaq only won 1 MVP, he didn't put in the effort to dominate all the time, but he proved how dominant he was when it mattered. Earlier I asked if Shaq ever had a series as bad as Curry did in 2016, and the point of it was to illustrate that Curry's numbers look better because he tries every single round, but Shaq generally sleepwalked through things he didn't have to try to dominate.

    Here are their numbers for the playoffs total:

    Curry (15-17): 36.4 MPG 27.2 PPG (37.1 points per 100 possessions)
    Shaq (99-02): 42.3 MPG 29.9 PPG (37.3 points per 100 possessions)

    So for the playoffs overall in those years both Curry and Shaq score roughly the same amount per possession.

    But if we look at just the WCF and Finals those years here are the results we get:
    Curry (15-17): 37.3 MPG 27.2 PPG
    Shaq (00-02): 43.3 MPG 31.5 PPG


    So we see in the WCF/Finals Curry scores the same PPG on a minute more playing time whereas Shaq scores 1.6 more PPG on a minute more playing time.

    Remember, they scored the same per 100 possession for the playoffs overall, yet in the last 2 rounds Shaq increases his scoring output while Curry's stays the same.

    That to me suggests that Shaq is more unguardable when it matters most. Curry cooks teams the Dubs can sleepwalk through in the playoffs. Here are some of his series averages against overmatched opponents:

    33.8 PPG vs Pelicans 1st Round 2015 (Dubs 4-0)
    34.5 PPG vs Blazers 2nd Round 2016 (Dubs 4-1)
    29.8 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 2017 (Dubs 4-0)
    31.5 PPG vs Spurs (sans Kawhi) WCF 2017 (Dubs 4-0)


    Now consider in tougher matchups he scores less:

    24.5 PPG vs Grizzlies 2nd Round 2015 (Dubs 4-2)
    26.0 PPG vs Cavs Finals 2015 (Dubs 4-2)
    27.9 PPG vs Thunder WCF 2016 (Dubs 4-3)
    22.6 PPG vs Cavs Finals 2016 (Cavs 4-3)


    When we look at Shaq we see the exact opposite, he often scored the least in series the Lakers swept, meaning he sleptwalk through those series:

    27.0 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 01 (Lakers 4-0)
    27.0 PPG vs Spurs WCF 01 (Lakers 4-0)
    25.7 PPG vs Blazers 1st Round 02 (Lakers 4-0)
    21.4 PPG vs Spurs 2nd Round 02 (Lakers 4-1)

    So yeah the numbers say in totality Curry scored as much as Shaq at his peak in the playoffs (or at the same rate), but when you actually look beyond the totals you see that Curry scored as much because he scored well against clearly outclassed teams whereas Shaq took many of those first and second round series off and dominated more in the Finals.

    Here are their Finals numbers:

    Curry: 24.9 PPG
    Shaq: 35.9 PPG


    If you want to say Curry is more consistently great a scorer than Shaq, sure. Absolutely. But the whole point of "who is more unguardable" is differentiating when the going gets tough, who is tougher to stop? And it seems as if the answer is Shaq.

    This is similar to trying to use LeBron's regular season numbers against him (as you like to do with +/-) when everybody knows he becomes a completely different player when the playoffs hit. Well, the same was true of Shaq during his peak. You knew you weren't going to get full effort from Shaq unless he felt he needed to bring full effort, but when he did, you saw him dominate to a more unguardable level than Curry has thus far shown.

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •