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View Poll Results: Which of the remaining players is best?

Voters
18. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

    6 33.33%
  • Wilt Chamberlain

    5 27.78%
  • Shaquille O'Neal

    5 27.78%
  • Tim Duncan

    0 0%
  • Magic Johnson

    0 0%
  • Larry Bird

    1 5.56%
  • Kobe Bryant

    1 5.56%
  • Hakeem Olajuwon

    0 0%
  • Another Player (Please Specify)

    0 0%
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Results 16 to 30 of 57
  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    I know Wilt played in a time when efficiency was low, but so did Kareem (granted they entered the league 10 years apart). Wilt did his 50/25 thing on .537 TS%. He wasn't as efficient as Kareem, and he played against inferior opposition.
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    What's more impressive: 40/25/3 with mediocre efficiency in the early 60s (Wilt), 30/16/5 with elite efficiency in the early 70s (Kareem) or 29/13/3 with elite efficiency (Shaq)? You could make a strong case for any of the the three.

    Advanced stats don't paint a clear picture of the three either. PER obviously leans toward Wilt's peak, WS and WS/48 favor Kareem, but VORP and BPM aren't tracked prior to the mid-70s, which eliminates Kareem and Wilt's peaks.

    Gun to my head, I kind of want to lean toward Kareem. From 71-74, he won three MVPs, one title and put up three consecutive seasons of 30/16/4 with a 29+ PER and a .320+ WS/48 over a four-year span, which is ridiculous. Wilt didn't get his first title until he was 30, and by then, his peak had definitely passed him by. Also, from a pure skill standpoint, I think Kareem was a more skilled player on paper than Shaq.

    Shaq is tougher to argue in this case, because his major selling point is that his peak and prime were consistently spectacular for a much longer period of time than Kareem and Wilt's peaks. But I don't think they're quite as strong. However, from 2000-02, he won three titles and an MVP over three seasons, so that certainly helps his case. I'd argue, though, that those Lakers teams were probably more talented and better built that Kareem's Bucks teams in the 70s with a well-past-his-prime Oscar Robertson.

    Looking at the wrong Wilt. Check out '67 Chamberlain. His best version.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It seems in the battle of Shaq, Wilt and Kareem people are picking Shaq (thus far).

    I do wonder if we're not giving due credit to how dominant Kareem was.
    Kareem was a ninny who couldn't rebound or handle the brutes. Look at his h2h matchups in the loffs and you'll see his counter parts had a tendency to over achieve against him.

    Poor Wilt had to endure so much bs throughout his career. KAJ goes after Wilt and Shaq

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Looking at the wrong Wilt. Check out '67 Chamberlain. His best version.
    Yeah, its hard to respect a stance that thinks Wilt was beyond his prime his first title when his dominance was a large reason why that team was so revered. Smack dab in the middle of the Celtics dynasty and that's the team that gets the cred...

    Dude killed it.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    If this was an ATRD, of course I'd pick Shaq because he's more modern and all people have to do is say "LA Shaq" and they have to change their panties... even though LA Shaq and Orlando Shaq are virtually the same player statistically (albeit, LA Shaq had 1 more assist/game but was actually slightly less efficient scoring).

    But since I am not competing anyone's vote, for me it's fairly easy... Kareem.

    For someone so "dominant" offensively, Shaq's efficiency, while good, is not WOWZERS great. In fact, his 3 year prime is virtually identical to Kareem's 3 year prime efficiency-wise (Kareem is slightly more efficient)... the difference being, Kareem played in a noticeably less efficient era. When looking at VORP, Shaq's is surprisingly low... Kareem would have averaged 10 VORP/year if he didn't miss 20 games in one season in his 3-year peak. Shaq's highest is 9.3, his 2nd highest is 6.8 (although "baby Shaq had a 7.1 VORP) during his 3-year peak. Their rebound % and ast % are very close as well (Kareem being marginally better rebounder and Shaq having a marginally higher ast %).

    All-in-all, I think Kareem would make for a much better #1 player than Shaq. I think he could guard Shaq as well as anyone else... but LA Shaq aka "fat Shaq" would have a difficult time "dominating" on offense while keeping up with Kareem to guard him defensively. I wouldn't be tempted to bench Kareem during crunch time to avoid the hack-a-Kareem... He was a really good free throw shooter for a bigman. I'm not sure how it's NOT Kareem honestly...
    I don't view stats in vacuum. Orlando Shaq was that efficient because of penny. Shaq didn't regress in L.A. his first few years, he just had to create more on his own. Similar to how kaj never approached his younger days because he lost Oscar and only had a few peak seasons left with magic, who might've been the inferior playmaker by comparison

    At their best, KAJ doesn't hold a candle to them. At their worse kaj has the most embarrassing showing.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Wilt.

    His combination of size, speed, and leaping ability make him the best fit for the modern game. Can you imagine Shaq or Kareem switching out on to Curry?
    You ever see that final play in the finals that won Wilt his first chip? Basically defended 2 guys(his eras curry being one of them) in the pnr and stifled it. Wilt lacked the proper system and management more than anything else

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    I can imagine Kareem... while not nearly as fast to keep up with Curry, I think his length would allow him to do better defensively against Curry than Wilt. From everything I've read, Kareem was the best defender of the lot.
    Quicker but weaker. Why is one era superior to another stylistically tho. I miss hand check so much

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    That TS% thing will never help a guy like Wilt who had that many FGA but wasn't a good FT shooter. It's not really a fair measure as well because the game was entirely different when Wilt played during the earlier years and efficiency wasn't something they really cared about. Later his years, he became more selective with his shots and his TS% was much higher overall.

    KAJ didn't necessarily play against far superior opposition. I mean, how many rings would KAJ have without Magic? He could have very well ended his career winning 2-3 rings only had Magic not shown up. Also, Wilt was by far the superior athlete, shotblocker, and rebounder. Which season of KAJ was better than Wilt? I'm not seeing it. I don't see a season where KAJ also surpassed Shaq. KAJ's highest rebounding season never even broke Wilt's worst rebounding season.
    There's an argument to be made that kaj peak came in a weaker era due to the dual leagues thing. Kaj played with far and away the 2 greatest playmakers of their time, its sorta how Amare wasn't the same without Nash. KAJ was kind of weak until the late 70s when he started taking the abuse more seriously. I could never imagine Wilt or Shaq just getting out muscled the way he did.

    For their era, that was more important imo

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    It is a fact (technically an opinion, I get it lol) that the talent was not as good for bigmen in Wilt's era than in Kareem's era. As to how much, I will go ahead and say that is open to debate/discussion, sure.

    The efficiency argument goes for Kareem too though. They didn't focus on efficiency, I was just making a point that Wilt was not very efficient against inferior opposition (which no one can argue, one can only argue to what degree of inferior bigmen there were).

    As for the rings argument, it doesn't have as much weight (for me personally) when comparing 2 or 3 players' superior peak. Also, one could argue how many rings Shaq would have without the 2nd and 3rd greatest SG's in NBA history (Kobe and Wade). I get what your saying though, I just see it a little differently.
    Even if your theory were correct, we saw these legends against many of the same comp. Like sure maybe Kareem had it abit harder(debatable) but it's telling to note that Wilt gave the business to an in his prime Nate Thurmond whereas kaj was UTTERLY embarrassed by an out of his prime version of the same player.

    How much that should matter is up to you tho

  9. #24
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    Gonna have to with Wilt. He was such a physical specimen and would easily translate to any era. He may have played against inferior comp but he totally dominated statistically like no one ever has. I just feel like his size and athleticism/ability (in my mind) to go out and guard on the perimeter effectively sets him apart from the other 2 in this discussion.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZNC View Post
    Gonna have to with Wilt. He was such a physical specimen and would easily translate to any era. He may have played against inferior comp but he totally dominated statistically like no one ever has. I just feel like his size and athleticism/ability (in my mind) to go out and guard on the perimeter effectively sets him apart from the other 2 in this discussion.
    If you value an era of lateral quickness and quick twitch double jumps then kaj is prolly better defensively today, Wilt was infamous for requiring more time on his shot contests and even more for believing in what we now know as the Dwight Howard school of thought where spiking shots out of bounds is more intimidating and efficient than simply corraling the rebound for his team. Luckily this is an at their best proposition.

  11. #26
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    There are a lot of good arguments being made against Kareem and Wilt.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There are a lot of good arguments being made against Kareem and Wilt.
    What good arguments were made against '67 Wilt?


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Looking at the wrong Wilt. Check out '67 Chamberlain. His best version.
    Efficiency-wise? Sure. But by most other barometers, early 60s Wilt was superior. His regular season and posteason numbers were better in the early 60s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  14. #29
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    I've seen some really good arguments in this thread for Kareem and Wilt, and a couple of good arguments against them. But where is the argument FOR Shaq? He's winning this poll somehow, but I haven't seen a single solid post just laying out the case for him over Kareem and Wilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  15. #30
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    Yeah, good arguments I haven't considered against Kareem. I still have to assume a lot more when it comes to Wilt though. I still vote Kareem, although a lot less confident now. lol
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