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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    It comes down to this in my eyes. BB did not trade Jimmy in the offseason because he wanted to see how Brady was going to hold up this season. When Brady signed his last contract it was structured to resolve the rest of his playing days by this season. Brady's contract jumps to $22 million next year - either he was going to be washed up and cut/traded or if he still looked good they'd renegotiate his contract. Jimmy was the ready and willing successor if Brady was looking at the end of his road.

    Well, when it all came to fruition, the Patriots won both bets. Brady was playing at an MVP level at the trade deadline and Jimmy looked like a legit starter. Brady is still the superior QB though. Jimmy was unwilling to take a deal in the $16-18mil neck of the woods and wanted top dollar and a starting job (don't blame him).

    Over the course of the season (this season) - BB gave himself time to sort it out. In the end, he kept the QB who was better, he had history with, and is going to be on a cheaper contract.

    Let's look at Brady's pay year by year.

    2000 - $200k - .3% of cap
    2001 - $300k (Super Bowl) - .5% of cap
    2002 - $1M (9-7) - 1.5% of cap
    2003 - $3.3M (Super Bowl) - 4.4% of cap
    2004 - $5M (Super Bowl) - 6.3% of cap
    2005 - $8.4M - 9.9% of cap
    2006 - $13.8M (AFCCG) - 13.6% of cap
    2007 - $7.3M (Super Bowl) - 6.7% of cap
    2008 - $14.6M (Injury) - 12.6% of cap
    2009 - $14.6M - 11.9% of cap
    2010 - $17.4M - UNCAPPED YEAR
    2011 - $13.2M (Super Bowl) - 11% of cap
    2012 - $8M (AFCCG) - 6.6% of cap
    2013 - $13.8M (AFCCG) - 11.2% of cap
    2014 - $14.8M (Super Bowl) - 11.1% of cap
    2015 - $14M (AFCCG) - 9.8% of cap
    2016 - $13.7M (Super Bowl) - 8.9% of cap
    2017 - $14M - 8.4% of cap

    Why is this important? Brady has never made more than 13.6% of the cap. (worth mentioning the 3 highest years, 2006, 2008, 2009, probably 2 of the worst talented teams in that bunch) At $18Mil per year Garropollo would be making about 11% of the cap. Jimmy wouldn't settle for $18 mil (per reports). More than likely he's getting $22 mil +. At $22 mil he's at 13% of the cap...Anything more than that would be the most BB has EVER paid a QB. A QB who has 2 NFL starts nonetheless.

    Rather than pay an unproven QB more than he'd ever paid his HOF QB currently on his roster, he started to talk to Brady and Brady to Kraft about how long he intended to play. With Brady keen on playing longer, and still putting up MVP numbers...BB decided that if Garropollo was going to force the issue on getting PAID and being a STARTER he decided to move him and stick with Brady...

    Brady, who more than likely will enter a final contract negotiation with the patriots this offseason, will CUT his cap number down and sign more a modest 8-11% of the cap as he has his ENTIRE career. Something Garoppollo showed he was UNWILLING to do.

    History backs this cap ideology as well. NO SB WINNING TEAM HAS PAID A QB MORE THAN $20MIL. Here's the last 10.

    2016 - Brady
    2015 - Manning - $15M (took paycut to help team fill roster)
    2014 - Brady
    2013 - Flacco (got contract after this win)
    2012 - E Manning - $9.6M
    2011 - Rodgers - $7.7M
    2010 - Brees - $10.6M
    2009 - Rothlisberger - $7.9M
    2008 - Brady
    2007 - Manning - $10.5M

    BB knows you can't pay a QB more than 15% of your cap and have a roster good enough to win. Brady knows this as well. Garoppollo was unwilling to work with Bill on the numbers as Brady was and BB finally pulled the trigger.

    With Brady still playing at an MVP level. Jimmy about to walk, BB salvaged what he could and traded him far away from NE so he wouldn't have to play him but 1 maybe 2 times his entire career. Bill can look to draft and develop another QB over the next 2 years while Brady is still around just like he did with Jimmy. He essentially punted his back up plan...As he should have.

    Look for Brady to restructure his contract so the next 2-3 seasons BB can really load up because Brady's cap hit will be in the single digits of cap %.
    I'm with you on QB contracts. Cost control at the position is an underlying problem in the NFL rarely acknowledged by fans. That entire early 2000 dynasty was made possible by Brady's favorable deal.

    But there are two issues at play here: 1) Garappolo as Brady's successor, 2) Garappolo as an asset. Even if you have trepidation over building around a QB for 5 years ~92.5M (which I can accept) they still royally mismanaged the asset. Which, for an organization so skilled at trading down and parlaying 1st round picks into multiple quality players, is just unforgivable.

    Assuming BB moved JG to San Fran to be vindicated/validated, why did Kraft allow only a 2nd rounder? That one I'll never understand either....

    A caller on 98.5 just mentioned the Broncos' demise and the reference is apt IMO: they went from a contender to garbage thanks to no QB. Which is a sad reminder of what's to come.
    Last edited by elements1985; 01-09-2018 at 09:09 AM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    I'm with you on QB contracts. Cost control at the position is an underlying problem in the NFL rarely acknowledged by fans. That entire early 2000 dynasty was made possible by Brady's favorable deal.

    But there are two issues at play here: 1) Garappolo as Brady's successor, 2) Garappolo as an asset. Even if you have trepidation over building around a QB for 5 years ~92.5M (which I can accept) they still royally mismanaged the asset. Which, for an organization so skilled at trading down and parlaying 1st round picks into multiple quality players, is just unforgivable.

    Assuming BB moved JG to San Fran to be vindicated/validated, why did Kraft allow only a 2nd rounder? That one I'll never understand either....

    A caller on 98.5 just mentioned the Broncos' demise and the reference is apt IMO: they went from a contender to garbage thanks to no QB. Which is a sad reminder of what's to come.
    We have a QB on the roster who is about to win MVP right now. A QB who said he wants to play until he’s 45 and just had another very good year. Belichick is more then capable of drafting another good QB within the next couple of years.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    I'm with you on QB contracts. Cost control at the position is an underlying problem in the NFL rarely acknowledged by fans. That entire early 2000 dynasty was made possible by Brady's favorable deal.

    But there are two issues at play here: 1) Garappolo as Brady's successor, 2) Garappolo as an asset. Even if you have trepidation over building around a QB for 5 years ~92.5M (which I can accept) they still royally mismanaged the asset. Which, for an organization so skilled at trading down and parlaying 1st round picks into multiple quality players, is just unforgivable.

    Assuming BB moved JG to San Fran to be vindicated/validated, why did Kraft allow only a 2nd rounder? That one I'll never understand either....

    A caller on 98.5 just mentioned the Broncos' demise and the reference is apt IMO: they went from a contender to garbage thanks to no QB. Which is a sad reminder of what's to come.
    See my post on BB's clear lack of value for first rounders and favoring of 2-4th round picks over them. It's not just a trend.

    City of Champions

  4. #124
    If they want to squash this they should come out with a contract extension for BB, dispelling any notion that he is going to leave

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    Curran said there were other possibilities in today's piece, read that one.
    I did. Not convincing, and a low brow journalist at that.


    Wives? Very close friends? LOL! You're getting ridiculous now. All unnamed "sources" made this story.
    Just like with Trump, WH staffers are not going to admit on record that they think he's a moronic feeb.

    BB tells a friend he knows talks to the media. TB gets a bloody nose. BB's hands are clean. He's prepping for the playoffs, you actually think BB would answer such inquires with truth? Funny. Really.

    Puhlease, they aren't potted plants in that house they built. If you were the owner you'd want to know everything he does and they probably do too without stepping on his toes.
    Again I'm sure BK attempts to inform himself as to what goes on. You actually thinks he can cogitate the X's and O's at the operative level? It's like Hitler. Keen grasp on grand strategy and the weaknesses of others. He started tinkering with the East Front naming x-pig farmers Heads of Army Groups, and such. BK and his offspring can I'm sure sense the mien and intentions, and timing. But you need to hit the breaks real hard on any greater detail in depth than that.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    I bet the next thing you'll say is Trump is making the decisions...oops my bad...you already said that in another thread.
    Trump making decisions? Yeah what Fox baloney to pursue next. Could you put some "there" into the next response to me, so I don't waste my time? Thank you.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I can't remember what show it was on, must've been ESPN, or more likely NFL Network, years ago. They showed the sit down between Kraft, BB and the FO when discussing the upcoming offseason where they had to choose between Seymour and Wilfork. It was a round table discussion. Everyone had input. BB lead the conversation, but did not steer anyone...He just gave the pro and cons to both players and some financial considerations. At the end of the conversation, all parties had agreed that re-signing Vince was priority number one and if that meant losing Seymour...they had to do it. Kraft wasn't keen on that reality, but he let BB do what he had to do to keep Vince.

    I imagine this conversation has been had in many many cases between Kraft, BB and co...And I imagine it happened with Jimmy as well.
    Macro conversations. Sure they have them often. Would never dispute that. I saw that interview BTW. You think that if BB put his foot down he wouldn't win the day w/ those two? Until this episode of course.

    New reporting today (national) that two days before JG was dealt the Browns asked if they could make an offer and were turned down. You really think BB is afraid enough of a Conference "rival" down on its luc k about to cough up more draft capital (say (my guess) a 1, 2, 3, 4 over a two year period) and accept a clearly inferiordeal to the NFC just so we'd play them less? I can see in the Division making a difference. But I cannot imagine no other NFC club beating that offer.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-09-2018 at 01:23 PM.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    FOXBORO — Though it never seemed to be in doubt, Bill Belichick fired up his locker room on Monday with an affirmation that he’ll continue to be the Patriots head coach next season. “I’m juiced,” safety Patrick Chung said. “He’s coming back, man. When he’s done, I’ll be done, too.”

    Belichick said he “absolutely” plans to return for a 19th season and also dismissed a strange report from the New York Daily News that insinuated he was interested in the Giants’ vacancy.

    That wasn’t the only controversial report Belichick assaulted yesterday. He also addressed questions about an ESPN story that portrayed a broken relationship among Belichick, quarterback Tom Brady and owner Robert Kraft. The trio released a joint statement Friday to dispute that report, and Belichick continued that march on Monday.

    “We’ve been through this before, and I know you want to report on things that are inaccurate and unattributable,” Belichick said. “And I’m not really interested in responding to all of those random and, I would say in a lot of cases, baseless comments.”

    Belichick added more context Monday afternoon during his weekly interview with WEEI, noting his relationship with Brady and Kraft has “been great.” He also went out of his way to include Brady’s trainer, Alex Guerrero, in his answer.

    “I appreciate everything that Robert has done for me, the opportunities he’s given me and the support,” Belichick told WEEI. “I’ve been pretty lucky to have Tom as the quarterback for those 18 years, playing for 17. He’s a great player to coach, and he’s done a lot for this team. He’s been a huge help for me personally.

    “I have a great relationship with both Robert and Tom. And I would throw in there, since it was part of the article, I feel like I have a good relationship with Alex, too.”


    Poof! There go a lot of foolish opinions...
    What a maroon.

    The guy that brought "they don't respect us" locker room fervor over media commentary is going to admit he's fed up and leaving?

    Way too much pablum in that diet man.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I used the year the SB was played in on all the numbers here...

    I see you have no refuting arguments other than rhetorical questions here...
    I see you failed to answer my points - except with the Trumpian expediant of trying to flush them w/o addressing them. I thought you were above that.

    Again - when did TB win a SB betwen 2004 and 2014? Do you mind answering that? Or is that too difficult?
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Let's also not forget history here. Let's look at BB's biggest trades

    2017 - Garroppolo - 2018 2nd round pick (at time was projected at #34)
    2016 - Collins - 2017 3nd round pick
    2016 - Jones - Jonathan Cooper and 2017 2nd round pick
    2014 - Mankins - Tim Wright and 2015 4th round pick
    2010 - Moss - 2011 3rd round pick
    2009 - Seymour - 2011 1st round pick (2010 value of 2nd round pick)
    2009 - Vrable/Cassell - 2009 2nd round pick (#33)
    2006 - Branch - 2007 1st round pick (#31)
    2002 - Bledsoe - 2003 1st round pick

    Could it be that BB actually values 2nd round pick more than first round picks. Chandler Jones has been one of, if not the best Pass Rushing DE's in the NFL over the past 2 years...Could he/Should he have gotten more? You could argue he could have. Collins one of the top LB in the game, could you argue he could have gotten a first, at least a 2nd round pick for him? Yup.

    Prior to 2010 BB seemed to go after 1st round picks....He landing one successfully for Bledsoe, Seymour and Deion Branch. Yet the trio of Garropollo, Jones, Moss (similar players with similar trade values) he opted for 2nd and 3rd round picks. Why is that? What happened between these 2 time spans...

    AHHH the new CBA and how rookie contracts are structured! BB now values 2nd and 3rd round picks over first rounders. I think the proof is in the pudding. Let's look at BB's drafts.

    The new CBA went into effect after the draft in 2011

    Here's BB's pre new CBA drafts by round (12 years - 2000-2011) - Traded 3 Pro Bowl players
    Round 1 - 11 picks = .92/year (picked players at #17, #10, #21, #21, #13, #21, #6)
    Round 2 - 17 picks = 1.42/year
    Round 3 - 13 picks = 1.09/year
    Round 4 - 16 picks = 1.34/year

    AVG # of picks rounds 1-4 = 4.75

    Won 3 SB. Lost 2 SB. Lost 2 AFCCG

    Here's BB's post new CBA drafts by round (5 years - 2012-2016) - Traded 3 Pro Bowl players + Jimmy
    Round 1 - 4 picks = .80/year (no picks lower than #21)
    Round 2 - 6 picks = 1.2/year
    Round 3 - 9 picks = 1.80/year
    Round 4 - 9 picks = 1.80/year

    AVG # of picks rounds 1-4 = 5.6

    Won 2 Super Bowls. Lost 3 AFCCG.

    BB has clearly shifted his focus to young, cost controlled players in abundance over higher pedigreed players with bigger contracts and less quantity.

    BB does NOT value first round picks like the rest of the NFL does. The proof is in the pudding. BB no longer trades for future first round picks on draft day. He doesn't trade Pro Bowl players for first round picks. He does not trade QB's with huge upside for first round picks. He wants more picks in rounds 2-3 to mitigate his risk. He's more apt to trust his scouts and take more gambles at low risk, than to pick high, with slightly lesser risk but more financial burden.

    Or just ignore history and buy into hysteria...Your choice.
    There is no question that BB values low 2nd round picks 33-36 say a good bit higher than 28-32, perhaps even lower in some drafts. It's all about the salary. Sadly JG did well enough to push that pick up to what was it 40?

    There is no question that a a projected pick at 34-36 range is a valuable get.

    Also you must agree regarding the cognitive dissonance one faces when looking at the Browns offer (I believe YOU expected more than I from that deal).

    So you are trying to say that keeping JG from draft day thru the end of October was worth the delta between those two gets? I can't imagine that given how insulting you were to my various combinations I hoped to get from the Browns. So then the genius did a massive miscalculation and tried to rub it off on TB and RK?

    Let's here the theory of the case.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Monster View Post
    I read it the first time and my point still stood. Deal the GOAT, right...
    Yes. Montana was dealt when he was widely regarded as the GOAT. But somehow your binky is above that.


    I literally refuted it in that post. Wtf?
    Not even remotely. Read over the posts again then try using on topic logic.


    Lmao at going off of red zone TD’s and INT’s only.
    I didn't say only, I asked that they be considered which you A. failed to do then B. now make light of. Nice try.

    I proved you wrong with those stats. Admit it and move along, not that difficult.
    Since when do you only get to specify what matters in this case? You avoided commenting on the team scoring and you avoided talking about the offensive skill roster positions. You case as you define it might be made to yur satisfaction, but to the media and fans it was pretty much not TB that was talked about as MVP until the injury.

    It's easy to only crow about your own points but as you prove here you are unwilling to address other serious points made by another person. Is that how you get by in life - by only paying attention to what supports your points? How sad.

    No... he wasn’t. Brady was leading at the time of the Wentz injury. Wentz was beginning to catch up but Brady was a good amount ahead statistically.
    Your cherry picked stats.

    So you’re not going to take it back? That’s fine, leaving a false statement out there makes you look even worse.
    If you think I'm here to look good to you, you are delusional. Again we see you only accept facts that make your points and refuse others.

    And lol, I was right on the Celtics all year. Said they’d lose to the Cavs in the ECF and they did. You thought they’d lose earlier.
    You kept saying their league rank should map to the EC rank. You had them as high as #2 at times. I never had them higher than #6.

    You kept denying that they had a poor record against teams over .500 and the WC. Wrong.

    You kept arguing that IT was great and the C's could win a title with him as one of the Max players - I said no - DA agreed with me.

    I just said that they would lose to Toronto, and since they didn't play them, your claim is false.

    There are lots of good reasons why I am PSD's Celt page DA for 8 years running.



    Try and learn how to be more like Oakmont, at least there is some heft in the posts, he never comes across like a yippy 8 lb lap dog
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    See my post on BB's clear lack of value for first rounders and favoring of 2-4th round picks over them. It's not just a trend.
    I don't really see the point. Seems like a way of dancing around a horrible trade. If BB prefers late round picks, wouldn't he want a 1st, which, through crafty wheeling and dealing, can become a cache of value picks across multiple drafts? Why not Jimmy for 2nds in 2018, 2019 and 2020? Isn't that optimal when your roster has so many holes?

    This draft philosophy argument suggests that zero internal conflict factored into the trade which has basically been disproved.
    Last edited by elements1985; 01-09-2018 at 01:39 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Trump making decisions? Yeah what Fox baloney to pursue next. Could you put some "there" into the next response to me, so I don't waste my time? Thank you.
    Sorry but you made the mistake of saying Trump was in charge of the Pats decisions:

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Randy Moss wasn't a banger either, Trump more than any GM knows the different type of WR's that exist. He dealt for him, and it's pretty clear he's doing more than just about any guy we would have gotten in the draft for this team this year.


    You're getting mixed up old timer. ..so there!
    Last edited by TKO; 01-09-2018 at 02:24 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green_Monster View Post
    We have a QB on the roster who is about to win MVP right now. A QB who said he wants to play until he’s 45 and just had another very good year. Belichick is more then capable of drafting another good QB within the next couple of years.
    How many has he drafted/signed? Let's see

    Rohan Davey - 4th round - 56.5 QB Rating, played 1 year

    Kingsbury - 6th found - 2 passes thrown in career

    Cassel - 7th round - 78.8 QB Rating 81 GS, 3 good years, all early on, averaged 4 starts per year since end of 2010 - career back up; 20.4 QB Rating in playoffs with 1 start and 18 total passes.

    O'Connell - 3rd round - 6 passes thrown in career

    Hoyer - UDFA - 83.3 QB Rating, seen as a career back-up now

    Mallett - 3rd round - 87.4 QB Rating 8 starts in his career - career back-up

    Garoppolo - 2nd round 99.7 QB Rating 7-0 career record

    Brady - 6th round - 97.6 QB Rating, lots more wins and lots more losses

    So, who is a success - clearly TB

    Who sucked? 3 clearly; 3 career back-ups

    So what level does JG need to get to to be clearly a success? How about more times in QB Rating top 10 than TB from 2018 onward?

    So 1 out of 8 or 2 out of 8. So I'm afraid that just drafting someone that looks good at the time is no guarantee of success as BB has demonstrated - even more so since TB wasn't his choice (he deferred).
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    Whatever the reason, he's gone and it didn't get challenged by Kraft.
    And your proof is what?
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

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