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Simmonds is in a complicated stage to really get a huge haul isn't he? He's got 1 year remaining on a contract and he's gonna be 30. The only way that works out to get a big return is that the team he gets traded to locks him in to a long term deal. That kinda limits the leverage a little doesn't it? No one is unloading the prospect truck for a one year rental. At his age the number of teams willing to lock him into a long term high dollar deal would be a lot less than if he was 26 or 27. So I don't necessarily see a trade as a homer for us here.
You won't get Duchene level back for Simmonds. Duchene has the age and positional advantage. Simmonds is an older winger who doesn't offer the versatility that Duchene or the relative upside. Duchene comes with the more significant trade value. He was also traded with essentially the full year of control plus next. Simply put, you can't expect the same return.
But I do think the Flyers need to deal him. I'm simply uninterested in resigning a 31 year old power forward next-summer to the contract he'll require. So then you have to ask yourself: does Wayne Simmonds being here the next 1.5 years offset the addition of the gain of prospects/picks, and I would say: no it does not. I do not see the Flyers as a Cup team next year. They're not one now. So what's the general loss? A few wins? The picks/prospects could be used to add to what we have to either continue to build the farm, or perhaps to swing a deal for a mid-20's forward we need in a year or two that we don't have in the system.
I love Wayne Simmonds. He's been a thoroughly good dude on a sweetheart contract, who's played his *** off and been one of the best power forwards in the game. With that said, I do think the Flyers benefit more as a franchise for dealing him this deadline than they do keeping him the next year and change and letting him walk, or even, resigning him. They have big money tied to Giroux and Voracek into their 30's. Don't add a 3rd. You buy future production in a contract, and you don't pay for past success. I fear very much a Wayne Simmonds contract is going to hurt in 2-3 years of a deal that will likely run 5-7 seasons. You'll very much be doing the opposite: paying for the past while not getting a lot of productive seasons remaining.
Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 01-09-2018 at 11:57 PM.
We're From Philadelphia
We. Fight.
If you talk about getting a more legitimate defender back there we need to be talking about having a scenario where that guy replaces MacDonald or Gudas. Not at the expense of Sanheim and Meyers. Don't see us at all trading away Sanheim. We need to be figuring out how to get him back in there.
Philippe Myers ... it is not Meyers
3 is too many, but 2 is also too many. keep giroux and trade the other two.They have big money tied to Giroux and Voracek into their 30's. Don't add a 3rd.
macdonald would be replaced, too. i want next year's D corps to look something like this:If you talk about getting a more legitimate defender back there we need to be talking about having a scenario where that guy replaces MacDonald or Gudas. Not at the expense of Sanheim and Meyers. Don't see us at all trading away Sanheim. We need to be figuring out how to get him back in there.
provorov - carlson
ghost - hagg
gudas - myers
that group balances defensive prowess, offensive firepower, experience, mobility and physicality in a way that would allow us to defend against any opponent, regardless of style, size, speed or talent.
i love sanheim, but development goals have to be prioritized and my priority is developing povorov. i think the best way to do that is to pair him with a veteran who does everything we want him to do. carlson plays 25+ MPG and he's on pace for 60 points this season. provorov also plays 25 MPG with a 40 point pace and ghost plays another 21 MPG at a 60 point pace.
if we put those players together, at least 3 things become clear:
1: they're as good as any top 3 in the league.
2: developing myers and sanheim, while important, is no longer necessary to win a cup
3: successfully developing both myers and sanheim is not possible, so the best course of action is to prioritize the development of one of them, with the other becoming trade bait.
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We could trade him before the draft but teams do tend to overpay at deadlines.
I love simmonds and would hate to see him go but I think its the best option. I would definitely want a nhl ready player/or a player already in the nhl thats young.
I see these teams as the ones that would love to add him at the deadline:
anaheim. hed be a great fit with getzlaf. Rackell can move to lw but they dont trade many of their young players. they have silfverberg, steel, jones, terry, mahura,
Calgary seems like a great fit with monahan/gaudreau. They have some pieces in dube, fox, valimaki, andersson
edmonton
kings-hed help them really become contenders again (like the richie and carts trade, add to whats working). Clauge, vilardi
sens-white brown, formenten
blues- kyrou, kostin, thomas, thompson, fabbri, dunn, barbashev
wild-ek, greenway, kunin, coyle, nino n.
edmonton-puljujarvi, yamamoto, bear, jones
any1 in the metro is a no go. Doubt the yotes, sabres, avs, hawks (Can't afford him), wings, mtl, preds, stars, jets, sharks, knights would want him as most are rebuilding or have a logjam at rw. Toronto won't give up marner or nylander. Might be missing some teams but doing this on the fly. Teams like detroit, panthers, knights, stars maybe, sharks will probably ask for him in summer. I would go for puljujarvi, ek/greenway/kunin/coyle/nino, or kyrou/fabbri with some picks
I missed a few things in that comment. But the premise is sound.
Patrick has more raw talent as a prospect than couturier. There's also a lot of similarities in the skill set. Both were highly regarded as defensive studs, high iq players. Both knocked for skating (Patrick's is a better skater than 19 year old Couts). Patrick also has a better wrist shot imo. And of course Couts has proven to be one of the smartest hockey players in the league.
I'm couts second year he had 15 pts in 46 games. Patrick has 8 pts in 30. Coming off major surgery with a concussion in the middle of those games. Guy still has bonafide 1C potential.
And I stick to my point, he has more raw talent/skills than Couts had at that age. The only part he's lacking in is specifically IQ, which he's still above average in the NHL imo.
Remember, I've been the biggest Couts supporter on this forum his entire career.
1. Carlson is 28, 29 by the time this happens. I'm not locking in cap and term to a 29 year old when I have 4 or more guys with ceilings higher than his.
2. You'd have to switch hagg and gudas to make these pairings work. No reason to not have balanced handiness when you can.
3. Why can't sanheim an Myers both be developed properly? Isn't that why sanheim is here this season? To get his feet wet? 60 games or so should be expected this, season.
Provy-ghost
Sanheim-gudas
Hagg-Myers
Or
Provy-gudas
Ghost-hagg
Sanheim-myers
Or
Provy-myers
Ghost-gudas
Hagg-sanheim
All of these are preferable when compared to what you have IMO. Specifically because this team needs to stay out of cap trouble and continue to identify who is what in the prospect pools
I'm also not hitching my wagon to Myers and his injuries over sanheim. If I'm trading 1, it's the one with more risk. But I'm not trading any potential top pair kids before they play 80 games.
Patience with these kids can net the Seth Jones for Ryan Johansson trade. Or Larson for hall. No way I'm selling one early. Not unless I get that young, bona fide top 6 forward in return.
i think the raw talent/skill part might be right, but Couts was GREAT defensively from the beginning. He was put in difficult matchups and on the pk throughout his first year and in the playoffs. Patrick won't be as good as couts in that department but if he is half then its more than enough. I think we have ourselves a krejci-bergeron tandem going forward. Hopefully patrick ain't as injured as krejci and i think he can be a better scorer than krejci. We'll see.
1: the game is faster now, but defensemen are still productive into their mid-30s.1. Carlson is 28, 29 by the time this happens. I'm not locking in cap and term to a 29 year old when I have 4 or more guys with ceilings higher than his.
2. You'd have to switch hagg and gudas to make these pairings work. No reason to not have balanced handiness when you can.
the ceilings for sanheim and myers are what carlson already is. #1D, 24 MPG, PP, PK, 55 points in a good year, 45 in an average one. but there's no guarantee that either of them reach it.
carlson versus sanheim is literally a bird in the hand versus one in the bush.
2: sure, go for it.
do you notice how easily sam morin falls out of this conversation? that's what it looks like when developing one prospect is prioritized over developing another.3. Why can't sanheim an Myers both be developed properly? Isn't that why sanheim is here this season? To get his feet wet? 60 games or so should be expected this, season.
in a scenario where we have carlson, provorov and ghost (i think that's what this question was responding to), trying to develop both myers and sanheim would leave them each playing 16 MPG. for one of them to become a top 2/top 4 defenseman, the other would have to fall back.
that's what i'm doing. i'm acknowledging the answers we've already found.All of these are preferable when compared to what you have IMO. Specifically because this team needs to stay out of cap trouble and continue to identify who is what in the prospect pools
provorov: stud
ghost: stud
hagg: role player
sanheim: lottery ticket
myers: lottery ticket
morin: NHL ready, imo
beyond that, we're not barren. alt is probably leaving this summer and friedman looks like minor league filler, so we'll need to reload at the AHL level in the near future. luckily, bernhardt, hogberg and kalynuk are all somewhat interesting, and we should be able to draft a handful of defense prospects this summer.
the farm system doesn't have to end just because we start trying to win. tampa has a great farm system and they haven't had a top 10 pick in the last 5 years.
as for the cap, the moves we make at forward and on defense are connected. i want to sign carlson and i want to get younger at forward. those things work hand in hand.
Last edited by steagles; 01-10-2018 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by castan_b; 01-10-2018 at 02:39 PM.
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