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  1. #1
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    Is Tom Thibodeau bad for his players' health?

    Tom Thibodeau has a reputation as a taskmaster who runs his players hard some would say into the ground. The stars from his Chicago days, including Rose, Noah and Deng, have all broken down early when they should have been in their primes.
    Thibodeau's reputation has followed him to Minnesota. So far this season, four of the top 20 players in minutes played Wiggins, Towns, Butler and Gibson are in Minnesota. Last season, Towns and Wiggins led the league and were the only players to eclipse 3,000 minutes played, while Dieng was 20th in time on the court.
    I've heard some in the media say that part of Minnesota's defensive struggle is that players are just tired. Some have even gone so far as to want Thibodeau fired for how much stress he puts on players' bodies.
    Does Thibodeau run his players too hard? Is Butler, and eventually Towns and Wiggins, at risk of the same fate?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    Tom Thibodeau has a reputation as a taskmaster who runs his players hard some would say into the ground. The stars from his Chicago days, including Rose, Noah and Deng, have all broken down early when they should have been in their primes.
    Thibodeau's reputation has followed him to Minnesota. So far this season, four of the top 20 players in minutes played Wiggins, Towns, Butler and Gibson are in Minnesota. Last season, Towns and Wiggins led the league and were the only players to eclipse 3,000 minutes played, while Dieng was 20th in time on the court.
    I've heard some in the media say that part of Minnesota's defensive struggle is that players are just tired. Some have even gone so far as to want Thibodeau fired for how much stress he puts on players' bodies.
    Does Thibodeau run his players too hard? Is Butler, and eventually Towns and Wiggins, at risk of the same fate?
    Link?

    He coaches a franchise that hasn't made the playoffs in a decade and has a group of young plays mixed with veterans that need to develop chemistry. Maybe Jamal Crawford shouldn't play 35 minutes but Towns/Wiggins/Butler should. That is the core of that team and a core capable of doing damage in the playoffs. Their 16-11 start is proof that they are a different team now.


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  3. #3
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    Supposedly Butler thinks so, and he's a big time Thibs supporter.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

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  4. #4
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    The defense is not bad because of the minutes played, it's because we don't have any good defenders outside Butler, Gibson, and at time Dieng. Teague can't guard a paper bag. Wiggins is better this year, but still average at best. Towns is atrocious defensively. Our backups rarely play, so not worth digging on them.

    The biggest thing is, 1 minute played on a Thib's team is like 10 minutes played on a Mike D team, I swear. You grind for every single thing you get on a Thib's team. Yes, he never uses his bench, which will hurt long term, without a doubt. Thib's biggest downfall, is his totally archaic offensive sets. He runs virtually zero plays, and simply picks what he perceives to be a matchup advantage, and attacks it 1-1 relentlessly. We get no easy looks, ever, in the halfcourt with Rubio gone and Thib's slow, deliberate offense that just relies on Butler, Towns, and Wiggins taking turns going 1 on 5, we crash the offensive boards like it's 1992, and nobody ever gets back on defense. I swear to god if there was a stat kept that showed how many transition buckets you give up after a make, we would lead the universe.

    I am not a fan of Thib's. At all. He overworks his players, doesn't develop any player that doesn't play with a chip on his shoulder (ala, someone who would have developed themselves), can't figure out how to space the floor, runs zero plays, and essentially just plays the part of johnny come lately on the sideline watching his team get beat every time they let the other team swing the ball. "watch the corner!" No **** Tom

    If Towns is my player, he sits at the end of the bench each time he hunts for a block and his guy gets an easy putback. I sub out all 5 guys if they give up a 3 in transition after a make. It's hard to break Thib's rotation, but once you do, you can just mail it in forever and he will stick with you. It's ****ing annoying.
    Last edited by Hawkeye15; 12-12-2017 at 04:25 PM.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    The defense is not bad because of the minutes played, it's because we don't have any good defenders outside Butler, Gibson, and at time Dieng. Teague can't guard a paper bag. Wiggins is better this year, but still average at best. Towns is atrocious defensively. Our backups rarely play, so not worth digging on them.

    The biggest thing is, 1 minute played on a Thib's team is like 10 minutes played on a Mike D team, I swear. You grind for every single thing you get on a Thib's team. Yes, he never uses his bench, which will hurt long term, without a doubt. Thib's biggest downfall, is his totally archaic offensive sets. He runs virtually zero plays, and simply picks what he perceives to be a matchup advantage, and attacks it 1-1 relentlessly. We get no easy looks, ever, in the halfcourt with Rubio gone and Thib's slow, deliberate offense that just relies on Butler, Towns, and Wiggins taking turns going 1 on 5, we crash the offensive boards like it's 1992, and nobody ever gets back on defense. I swear to god if there was a stat kept that showed how many transition buckets you give up after a make, we would lead the universe.

    I am not a fan of Thib's. At all. He overworks his players, doesn't develop any player that doesn't play with a chip on his shoulder (ala, someone who would have developed themselves), can't figure out how to space the floor, runs zero plays, and essentially just plays the part of johnny come lately on the sideline watching his team get beat every time they let the other team swing the ball. "watch the corner!" No **** Tom

    If Towns is my player, he sits at the end of the bench each time he hunts for a block and his guy gets an easy putback. I sub out all 5 guys if they give up a 3 in transition after a make. It's hard to break Thib's rotation, but once you do, you can just mail it in forever and he will stick with you. It's ****ing annoying.
    Do you think it's a matter of chemistry and improving, or do you see this as the ceiling of being in a permanent Thibs-style offense?

    I haven't had any real opportunities to watch Minny this year so I'm just wondering if their issues are a result of fit or is it mostly coaching?

    Edit: I guess I feel like Minny is on the cusp of being a legit top home playoff team in the West if they can figure something out.
    Last edited by Vee-Rex; 12-12-2017 at 05:22 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    Do you think it's a matter of chemistry and improving, or do you see this as the ceiling of being in a permanent Thibs-style offense?

    I haven't had any real opportunities to watch Minny this year so I'm just wondering if their issues are a result of fit or is it mostly coaching?

    Edit: I guess I feel like Minny is on the cusp of being a legit top home playoff team in the West if they can figure something out.
    I would imagine it improves, if only because learning teammates tendencies takes time. In reality, we have no wing depth at all, which is a killer right now. We also have nobody that can consistently make the defense sweat from the 3 point line except Bjelica, but he plays 17mpg and has been hurt a while. If we could get a couple of guys that the defense can't cheat from, all of a sudden those 1-1 opportunities get easier. What I also noticed, is Butler really played like he didn't want to step on any toes the first 15 games. Since, he has realized he is our best player easily, and is acting like it. The defense will get better, I think, because it probably has to.

    The scary part is our offense is top 5, and I think it sucks haha.

    Some of our issues are fit. But Thib's more or less built this team, outside of Wiggins, Towns, Bjelica, Dieng, and a couple stragglers. 4 of our top 6 minute guys are his guys.

    I feel like Thib's just tends to slap together teams that are built for 1995, not 2017.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Link?

    He coaches a franchise that hasn't made the playoffs in a decade and has a group of young plays mixed with veterans that need to develop chemistry. Maybe Jamal Crawford shouldn't play 35 minutes but Towns/Wiggins/Butler should. That is the core of that team and a core capable of doing damage in the playoffs. Their 16-11 start is proof that they are a different team now.
    "I would fire him today. The dude played an eight-man rotation on a back-to-back. ... The amount of minutes is just a joke. Every study about health and recovery and minutes has just been utterly ignored. It's like denying climate change."
    - Kevin O'Connor, The Ringer

    O'Connor later walked back the comment to Thibodeau needing an intervention.

  8. #8
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    Hawkeye echoes a lot of Bulls' fans problems with Thibs when he was in Chicago. But now that it's been years since he was here, and Fred Hoiberg is god-awful and the team sucks, a good number of fans and media have forgotten the major flaws Thibs has.

    I remember in 2012/2013, I wanted to give Thibs a life-time contract. Boy was I wrong. I think Thibs would be phenomenal in college. He's a good coach, but he doesn't live up to my early memories of him with MVP Rose, DPOY Noah, All-star Deng, etc.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I would imagine it improves, if only because learning teammates tendencies takes time. In reality, we have no wing depth at all, which is a killer right now. We also have nobody that can consistently make the defense sweat from the 3 point line except Bjelica, but he plays 17mpg and has been hurt a while. If we could get a couple of guys that the defense can't cheat from, all of a sudden those 1-1 opportunities get easier. What I also noticed, is Butler really played like he didn't want to step on any toes the first 15 games. Since, he has realized he is our best player easily, and is acting like it. The defense will get better, I think, because it probably has to.

    The scary part is our offense is top 5, and I think it sucks haha.

    Some of our issues are fit. But Thib's more or less built this team, outside of Wiggins, Towns, Bjelica, Dieng, and a couple stragglers. 4 of our top 6 minute guys are his guys.

    I feel like Thib's just tends to slap together teams that are built for 1995, not 2017.
    Sounds a lot like Dwane Casey.

    I think Thibs is still a top coach, but he plays a dangerous game most of the time. If you put Thibs on most teams here (outside of the top 2-5 contenders), I gotta think they would see an increase in their record. Whether it leads to playoff success is a different story.

  10. #10
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    When the Timberwolves hired thibs he was our A1 choice. We laughed at hiring Dantoni but I wonder in the long run if the two hires aren't essentially equal? Antoni lacks the ability to coordinate a defense while thibs is the opposite. I wonder what the twolves would of looked like with a rockets type system installed with all the offensive potential we have. I can guarantee every single player would of learned to shoot a 3.

    As far as injuries are concerned I don't really think much of that. More so I'm focused on the actual mental and physical breakdowns in a game. When your coach demands perfection for 38 minutes a game from you as a player your going to have some mental lapses. I think the amount of minutes is actually hurting our player in learning to play good defense. Instead they need to see by learning how rotations work and study more in the film room. There is only so much a young player can learn and absorb. With so much of the energy focused on games I'm wondering if other areas aren't hurting in the player development arena.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    "I would fire him today. The dude played an eight-man rotation on a back-to-back. ... The amount of minutes is just a joke. Every study about health and recovery and minutes has just been utterly ignored. It's like denying climate change."
    - Kevin O'Connor, The Ringer

    O'Connor later walked back the comment to Thibodeau needing an intervention.
    Fire him and don't make the playoffs.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    Tom Thibodeau has a reputation as a taskmaster who runs his players hard some would say into the ground. The stars from his Chicago days, including Rose, Noah and Deng, have all broken down early when they should have been in their primes.
    Thibodeau's reputation has followed him to Minnesota. So far this season, four of the top 20 players in minutes played Wiggins, Towns, Butler and Gibson are in Minnesota. Last season, Towns and Wiggins led the league and were the only players to eclipse 3,000 minutes played, while Dieng was 20th in time on the court.
    I've heard some in the media say that part of Minnesota's defensive struggle is that players are just tired. Some have even gone so far as to want Thibodeau fired for how much stress he puts on players' bodies.
    Does Thibodeau run his players too hard? Is Butler, and eventually Towns and Wiggins, at risk of the same fate?
    Derrick played the most mpg during his MVP season but was still behind Lebron and Kevin Durant and was 9th in the league in total minutes. Jo was 185th that year. Deng's only major injury from my recollection was a botched spinal tap.

  13. #13
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    The fact Minny still sucks at defense and Thibs being known for it is pretty weird. I'm not sure what's going on there but you would think Minny would take a great leap defensively.

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