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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    taylor hall, jordan eberle, seth jones, ryan johansen, pk suban, artemi panarin, brandon saad, brandon saad, jonathan drouin, mikhail sergachev, kyle turris, adam henrique, marcus johansson, sami vatanen, teuvo teravainen, brayden schenn, ryan strome, derrick stepan.

    i think all those players have been traded in the last 2 calendar years...albeit mostly for each other.


    the trade market is not fully calcified. there's still room for shrewd movement.
    You answered your own question. They were mainly moved...for each other. The Flyers can certainly shuffle talent around. That's not going to get them anywhere. They don't need a shuffle. They need time and patience in their own young players before they can identify where they need to shuffle talent to and from.
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  2. #317
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    if you want the flyers to follow the chicago model, these are the moves you should want hextall to make before our prospect pool matures and provorov enters his prime:

    1 - trade simmonds, gudas, manning, weal, neuvirth and weise at the deadline/draft.
    2 - commit to one (1) of giroux or voracek and trade the other one
    3 - get a mid-20s selke caliber forward (backlund, tavares, oreilly, stone, pageau, palat, johnson, sutter, kadri, arvidsson, landeskog...and this is pushing it, but staal, marchand)
    4 - get another one.
    5 - get a defenseman under 30 with 5+ years of top 4 minutes (alzner, carlson, OEL, muzzin, ekholm, dekeyser, tanev, myers, kulikov, ceci, brodie).

    1 is important because it creates cap flexibility, adds future assets and opens roster space and playing time for frost/rubtsov/lindblom/sanheim/morin/myers (and maybe someone like allison, kase or vorobyev, or a draft pick like tkachuk).

    2 is important because it creates cap flexibility and adds future assets.

    3 and 4 are important because they balance the 2nd and 3rd lines, and give our high end prospects (frost, patrick, rubtsov, lindblom, konecny) defensive anchors they can rely on as they develop.

    5 is important because provorov needs experienced help to take some leadership and defensive responsibilities off his shoulders.



    all of that can be done between now and the start of next season if it's a priority.

    bv trading voracek and simmonds, we should be able to stockpile 6 first round picks between 2018 and 2019.
    we would have the cap room to sign one (maybe two) of backlund, tavares, carlson.
    we could pry away a mid-tier veteran like palat, ceci, alzner, kulikov, pageau or staal using a combination of picks and prospects.



    i know alot of you have gotten comfortable with underachieving mediocrity, but would you actually be disappointed if this is our lineup next year?

    giroux - couturier - tkachuk
    frost - patrick - palat
    rubtsov - staal - konecny
    laughton - filppula - raffl

    provorov - carlson
    ghost - hagg
    sanheim - myers

    hart/elliot/stolarz/lyon/sandstrom

  3. #318
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    what is this, nhl 2018 where you can trade with computer gms? ^^

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    if you want the flyers to follow the chicago model, these are the moves you should want hextall to make before our prospect pool matures and provorov enters his prime:

    1 - trade simmonds, gudas, manning, weal, neuvirth and weise at the deadline/draft.
    2 - commit to one (1) of giroux or voracek and trade the other one
    3 - get a mid-20s selke caliber forward (backlund, tavares, oreilly, stone, pageau, palat, johnson, sutter, kadri, arvidsson, landeskog...and this is pushing it, but staal, marchand)
    4 - get another one.
    5 - get a defenseman under 30 with 5+ years of top 4 minutes (alzner, carlson, OEL, muzzin, ekholm, dekeyser, tanev, myers, kulikov, ceci, brodie).

    1 is important because it creates cap flexibility, adds future assets and opens roster space and playing time for frost/rubtsov/lindblom/sanheim/morin/myers (and maybe someone like allison, kase or vorobyev, or a draft pick like tkachuk).

    2 is important because it creates cap flexibility and adds future assets.

    3 and 4 are important because they balance the 2nd and 3rd lines, and give our high end prospects (frost, patrick, rubtsov, lindblom, konecny) defensive anchors they can rely on as they develop.

    5 is important because provorov needs experienced help to take some leadership and defensive responsibilities off his shoulders.



    all of that can be done between now and the start of next season if it's a priority.

    bv trading voracek and simmonds, we should be able to stockpile 6 first round picks between 2018 and 2019.
    we would have the cap room to sign one (maybe two) of backlund, tavares, carlson.
    we could pry away a mid-tier veteran like palat, ceci, alzner, kulikov, pageau or staal using a combination of picks and prospects.



    i know alot of you have gotten comfortable with underachieving mediocrity, but would you actually be disappointed if this is our lineup next year?

    giroux - couturier - tkachuk
    frost - patrick - palat
    rubtsov - staal - konecny
    laughton - filppula - raffl

    provorov - carlson
    ghost - hagg
    sanheim - myers

    hart/elliot/stolarz/lyon/sandstrom
    1. Easier said than done, but if the Flyers are out of playoff contention I see Hextall making a couple moves for futures.

    2. There is no urgency to move either unless the return is something that can't be refused which is unlikely.

    3. Selke caliber? Out of everyone on that list, Tastes and O'Reilly might be it and that's pushing it. You aren't getting JT and I'm not sure O'reilly is the right fit.

    4. We trying to well the farm now? 1 step forward 2 steps back. You're basically just flipping Simmonds or Voracek for a younger and likely inferior player.

    5. Most of those guys aren't much better than what we have now. Alzner is just a superior version of AMac. And as we've seen, acquiring veteran top 4 defenders are expensive. There is no need to add 1. Just get the guys we have on the roster the experience they need.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    Just get the guys we have on the roster the experience they need.
    this and hopefully others as well

  6. #321
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    Rubtsov is going to need an AHL year or two based on what I saw at world juniors, specifically against team USA

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    if you want the flyers to follow the chicago model, these are the moves you should want hextall to make before our prospect pool matures and provorov enters his prime:

    1 - trade simmonds, gudas, manning, weal, neuvirth and weise at the deadline/draft.
    2 - commit to one (1) of giroux or voracek and trade the other one
    3 - get a mid-20s selke caliber forward (backlund, tavares, oreilly, stone, pageau, palat, johnson, sutter, kadri, arvidsson, landeskog...and this is pushing it, but staal, marchand)
    4 - get another one.
    5 - get a defenseman under 30 with 5+ years of top 4 minutes (alzner, carlson, OEL, muzzin, ekholm, dekeyser, tanev, myers, kulikov, ceci, brodie).

    1 is important because it creates cap flexibility, adds future assets and opens roster space and playing time for frost/rubtsov/lindblom/sanheim/morin/myers (and maybe someone like allison, kase or vorobyev, or a draft pick like tkachuk).

    2 is important because it creates cap flexibility and adds future assets.

    3 and 4 are important because they balance the 2nd and 3rd lines, and give our high end prospects (frost, patrick, rubtsov, lindblom, konecny) defensive anchors they can rely on as they develop.

    5 is important because provorov needs experienced help to take some leadership and defensive responsibilities off his shoulders.



    all of that can be done between now and the start of next season if it's a priority.

    bv trading voracek and simmonds, we should be able to stockpile 6 first round picks between 2018 and 2019.
    we would have the cap room to sign one (maybe two) of backlund, tavares, carlson.
    we could pry away a mid-tier veteran like palat, ceci, alzner, kulikov, pageau or staal using a combination of picks and prospects.



    i know alot of you have gotten comfortable with underachieving mediocrity, but would you actually be disappointed if this is our lineup next year?

    giroux - couturier - tkachuk
    frost - patrick - palat
    rubtsov - staal - konecny
    laughton - filppula - raffl

    provorov - carlson
    ghost - hagg
    sanheim - myers

    hart/elliot/stolarz/lyon/sandstrom
    This isn't NHL 18. That's not all happening. Be realistic, live in the real world.

    The Flyers can probably find some trade partners but not all of that needs to happen. The Flyers have a ton of young talent, and I don't disagree that finding a Simmonds trade is something the Flyers need to consider. I do think the Flyers need to consider that, because I don't think I want to resign him, and I think the return will be a good one (not Duchene level like I've seen some suggest here, but good).

    The Flyers don't need to trade Weal. The result will be nothing. He's on a cheap *** deal, and there's likely little demand for him with the goal total he's put up this year. Gudas is fine here as a low pairing guy. I think it's pretty silly to think the Flyers are going to somehow trade/acquire for multiple mid-20's Selke caliber Centers. I find signing a high priced defensemen with the number of young defensemen we have who we very much hope will fill that roll internally, for a team who isn't going to be a Cup contender for a little bit is a waste of their prime years. Hart isn't ready next year, either. Neither is Rubustov.

    The Flyers need patience. I can't stress that enough. And we need to be realistic. The Flyers can make some moves. I think dealing Simmonds is one we need to highly consider. I'm not "comfortable with underachieving mediocrity" and claiming that any one is is silly and honestly, pretty off the mark. I want the team to be patient for the first time in probably forever with their young talent, I want the team to legit commit to it (with a coach who is committed to it), and go from there. They're half assing it right now. They're keeping some young players on the NHL roster but allowing their coach to dick with them, throw them in the press box, allowing him to anchor them down with garbage linemates. I'm not fully advocating making the Flyers the NHL Phantoms, but I'd like them to roll with the guys who are ready, give them ice time and have the confidence in them that they'll figure it out. They don't need whole sale changes.
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  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    Rubtsov is going to need an AHL year or two based on what I saw at world juniors, specifically against team USA
    hes been pretty good. Russia wasn't that great this year. Hopefully he goes back to juniors, tears it up, and really blows everyone away come camp time.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    This isn't NHL 18. That's not all happening. Be realistic, live in the real world.

    The Flyers can probably find some trade partners but not all of that needs to happen. The Flyers have a ton of young talent, and I don't disagree that finding a Simmonds trade is something the Flyers need to consider. I do think the Flyers need to consider that, because I don't think I want to resign him, and I think the return will be a good one (not Duchene level like I've seen some suggest here, but good).

    The Flyers don't need to trade Weal. The result will be nothing. He's on a cheap *** deal, and there's likely little demand for him with the goal total he's put up this year. Gudas is fine here as a low pairing guy. I think it's pretty silly to think the Flyers are going to somehow trade/acquire for multiple mid-20's Selke caliber Centers. I find signing a high priced defensemen with the number of young defensemen we have who we very much hope will fill that roll internally, for a team who isn't going to be a Cup contender for a little bit is a waste of their prime years. Hart isn't ready next year, either. Neither is Rubustov.

    The Flyers need patience. I can't stress that enough. And we need to be realistic. The Flyers can make some moves. I think dealing Simmonds is one we need to highly consider. I'm not "comfortable with underachieving mediocrity" and claiming that any one is is silly and honestly, pretty off the mark. I want the team to be patient for the first time in probably forever with their young talent, I want the team to legit commit to it (with a coach who is committed to it), and go from there. They're half assing it right now. They're keeping some young players on the NHL roster but allowing their coach to dick with them, throw them in the press box, allowing him to anchor them down with garbage linemates. I'm not fully advocating making the Flyers the NHL Phantoms, but I'd like them to roll with the guys who are ready, give them ice time and have the confidence in them that they'll figure it out. They don't need whole sale changes.
    Well said.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    hes been pretty good. Russia wasn't that great this year. Hopefully he goes back to juniors, tears it up, and really blows everyone away come camp time.
    Rubstov is for sure still at least a year away. Vorovyov on the other hand, will hopefully be ready to pivot one of the bottom 2 lines as soon as next year. That likely means Patrick having to be the 2nd line center which might be unrealistic, but that would be the ideal scenario to move the train forward. Means they also need to give him the tools to succeed in that role:

    Lindblom - Couturier - Voracek
    Giroux - Patrick - Konecny
    Leier - Laughton - Simmonds(trade replacement)
    Weal - Vorobyov - Raffl/Veccione/etc

    Provorov - Hagg
    Morin - Ghost
    Sanheim - Gudas

    Elliott
    Neuvirth/Stolarz/Lyon

    That's something to potentially get excited for next season and move the needle forward.

  11. #326
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    3. Selke caliber? Out of everyone on that list, Tastes and O'Reilly might be it and that's pushing it. You aren't getting JT and I'm not sure O'reilly is the right fit.
    top 10, anyway. couturier is selke caliber, but he's never been voted higher than 8th.
    4. We trying to well the farm now? 1 step forward 2 steps back. You're basically just flipping Simmonds or Voracek for a younger and likely inferior player.
    while picking up draft picks, adding prospects, creating cap room, improving our depth and reshaping the roster around provorov.

    nearly anyone who replaces voracek will be inferior. the improvements to the rest of the roster will more than make up for it.

  12. #327
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    This isn't NHL 18. That's not all happening. Be realistic, live in the real world.
    go through it step by step.
    trading simmonds? it's plausible
    trading gudas...trading weal...neuvirth...weise? each one, plausible
    trading voracek? plausible
    drafting tkachuk? plausible
    trading assets for a center? plausible
    trading assets for a wing? plausible
    signing carlson? plausible

    the only thing that's implausible is that anyone in this organization would have the ambition to do it.

    you may see the volume of that as being prohibitively excessive, but the thing about getting a reputation as a wheeler dealer is that people come to you to get trades done. the more trades you make, the easier it gets to find partners.
    The Flyers need patience. I can't stress that enough. And we need to be realistic. The Flyers can make some moves. I think dealing Simmonds is one we need to highly consider. I'm not "comfortable with underachieving mediocrity" and claiming that any one is is silly and honestly, pretty off the mark
    6 years is more than enough patience. that's how long it's been since the necessity of a rebuild became unavoidable. that's how long it's been since we traded for mason, bought out bryzgalov and hired hextall as assistant GM.

    this is 2018. that was 2013. it's been 6 years.
    They're half assing it right now. They're keeping some young players on the NHL roster but allowing their coach to dick with them, throw them in the press box, allowing him to anchor them down with garbage linemates. I'm not fully advocating making the Flyers the NHL Phantoms, but I'd like them to roll with the guys who are ready, give them ice time and have the confidence in them that they'll figure it out. They don't need whole sale changes.
    they've been half-assing it the whole time.

    some of us have been calling them on it...the whole time.

    some of us are still calling them on it.


    i was the first person calling for a rebuild 6 years ago. my problem has never been with the necessity of rebuilding, it's been with the process the flyers have taken in going about it.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    go through it step by step.
    trading simmonds? it's plausible
    trading gudas...trading weal...neuvirth...weise? each one, plausible
    trading voracek? plausible
    drafting tkachuk? plausible
    trading assets for a center? plausible
    trading assets for a wing? plausible
    signing carlson? plausible

    the only thing that's implausible is that anyone in this organization would have the ambition to do it.

    you may see the volume of that as being prohibitively excessive, but the thing about getting a reputation as a wheeler dealer is that people come to you to get trades done. the more trades you make, the easier it gets to find partners.

    6 years is more than enough patience. that's how long it's been since the necessity of a rebuild became unavoidable. that's how long it's been since we traded for mason, bought out bryzgalov and hired hextall as assistant GM.

    this is 2018. that was 2013. it's been 6 years.

    they've been half-assing it the whole time.

    some of us have been calling them on it...the whole time.

    some of us are still calling them on it.


    i was the first person calling for a rebuild 6 years ago. my problem has never been with the necessity of rebuilding, it's been with the process the flyers have taken in going about it.
    Each move singularly has plausibility to it. It's that you think that's going to happen in a singular year. It won't. It's not. Name one franchise in the history of the last 50 years who essentially walked into the next season with THAT much over turn. There's no way. That's 2-3 years of moves. Two selke-type centers, in their mid' 20's is not realistic.

    Your isn't isnt in each singular move. It's volume. That volume ain't gonna happen. It won't. You have to be able to realize that. That's NHL 18 stuff where you essentially re-invent a team on the pause screen. It's not how the world of the NHL works.

    And it's not been 6 years of "patience" just because *one* person was calling for a rebuild. It's pateitnce now. It's patience with Patrick, Koneceny, Sanheim, Meyers, Morin, Ghostesbehre, Provorov, Lindblom, Frost, Rubustov, Vorbyev...those guys haven't gotten six years. The Flyers aren't on *your* schedule. I'm very proud (I guess?) of you calling for it whenever you did, but that has zero bearing on where the team is today, or what they should do going forward.

    The team needs patience with these players. Because that's who we have now. Whatever you, or anyone wanted means nothing today. The team needs to be slow, allow these players to develop, and not panic. Signing Carlson when there's enough players who offer #1 pairing defensemen on this roster as is, is a waste of money, and a waste of assets. It's panic. It's reshuffling for the sake of "doing something" to feel like progress is made because you are feeling impatient. The team shouldn't need to sink a $5-7m, 5+ year deal into a defensemen because they have the assets already to have them on the roster likely. Some of these players will fail. It's how prospects in all sports work. But between Sanheim, Meyers, Ghost, Provorov, Hagg, and even to some lesser degrees like Alt, Friedman...there's enough to suggest we have most of, if not a full NHL top-4 pairing defensemen in the system. At worst, 3 of 4. But we need to see what we have. And go from there. Don't sink assets where it doesn't need it.

    Fill the holes when you know where they are. The Flyers are finally, for the first time in a very long time, headed down a path of sustainability. Allow them to do so. They just need to commit a little better to it in the coaching ranks. They're committed to it on the player developmental side.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 01-03-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Each move singularly has plausibility to it. It's that you think that's going to happen in a singular year. It won't. It's not. Name one franchise in the history of the last 50 years who essentially walked into the next season with THAT much over turn. There's no way. That's 2-3 years of moves. Two selke-type centers, in their mid' 20's is not realistic.

    Your isn't isnt in each singular move. It's volume. That volume ain't gonna happen. It won't. You have to be able to realize that. That's NHL 18 stuff where you essentially re-invent a team on the pause screen. It's not how the world of the NHL works.

    And it's not been 6 years of "patience" just because *one* person was calling for a rebuild. It's pateitnce now. It's patience with Patrick, Koneceny, Sanheim, Meyers, Morin, Ghostesbehre, Provorov, Lindblom, Frost, Rubustov, Vorbyev...those guys haven't gotten six years. The Flyers aren't on *your* schedule. I'm very proud (I guess?) of you calling for it whenever you did, but that has zero bearing on where the team is today, or what they should do going forward.

    The team needs patience with these players. Because that's who we have now. Whatever you, or anyone wanted means nothing today. The team needs to be slow, allow these players to develop, and not panic. Signing Carlson when there's enough players who offer #1 pairing defensemen on this roster as is, is a waste of money, and a waste of assets. It's panic. It's reshuffling for the sake of "doing something" to feel like progress is made because you are feeling impatient. The team shouldn't need to sink a $5-7m, 5+ year deal into a defensemen because they have the assets already to have them on the roster likely. Some of these players will fail. It's how prospects in all sports work. But between Sanheim, Meyers, Ghost, Provorov, Hagg, and even to some lesser degrees like Alt, Friedman...there's enough to suggest we have most of, if not a full NHL top-4 pairing defensemen in the system. At worst, 3 of 4. But we need to see what we have. And go from there. Don't sink assets where it doesn't need it.

    Fill the holes when you know where they are. The Flyers are finally, for the first time in a very long time, headed down a path of sustainability. Allow them to do so. They just need to commit a little better to it in the coaching ranks. They're committed to it on the player developmental side.
    I just want to state for the record, all Iím saying bring up a 21 year old Lindblom, a 22 year old Sam Morin (when healthy), a 24 year old Vechionne (when healthy), and potentially a turning 21 in 20 days Myers.

    These arenít 18, 19, or 20 year olds anymore. This is a white glove treatment, they are replacing what .. 11 goals? If you sit Weise, Amac, Gudas, Lehtera, and Manning (who has the most production) ... assign those older stiffs who arenít long term plans to the AHL ... trade flip and bring up Vorobyev is back from injury (who is the youngest at 20 years old) ....

    Let growing pains happen the last 1/2 of the season, get a GREAT draft pick, go snag a Brady Tkachuk by trading the blues pick with a top 10 to get to #5 ... and go into the draft having seen your picks on NHL ice for 40 games. Maybe it will help you out in a draft day trade, or know going into 2018/2019 what your FA needs are.

    Iíd also trade Simmonds, now or at the draft for moving up and going to get someone like Brady tkachuk ...

    But can we stop pretending we are a playoff team, admit we are moving on from certain players, and just play the ďkidsĒ who are all at least 21 now ...

    See how G and Voracek handle the full team of kids. Maybe they are fine being 3rd line players. ... I just donít see why that isnít happening, except that the coach isnít good enough but if that is the case, fire the coach now too.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    I just want to state for the record, all Iím saying bring up a 21 year old Lindblom, a 22 year old Sam Morin (when healthy), a 24 year old Vechionne (when healthy), and potentially a turning 21 in 20 days Myers.

    These arenít 18, 19, or 20 year olds anymore. This is a white glove treatment, they are replacing what .. 11 goals? If you sit Weise, Amac, Gudas, Lehtera, and Manning (who has the most production) ... assign those older stiffs who arenít long term plans to the AHL ... trade flip and bring up Vorobyev is back from injury (who is the youngest at 20 years old) ....

    Let growing pains happen the last 1/2 of the season, get a GREAT draft pick, go snag a Brady Tkachuk by trading the blues pick with a top 10 to get to #5 ... and go into the draft having seen your picks on NHL ice for 40 games. Maybe it will help you out in a draft day trade, or know going into 2018/2019 what your FA needs are.

    Iíd also trade Simmonds, now or at the draft for moving up and going to get someone like Brady tkachuk ...

    But can we stop pretending we are a playoff team, admit we are moving on from certain players, and just play the ďkidsĒ who are all at least 21 now ...

    See how G and Voracek handle the full team of kids. Maybe they are fine being 3rd line players. ... I just donít see why that isnít happening, except that the coach isnít good enough but if that is the case, fire the coach now too.
    It's not about age. It's about readiness. Truly I don't care if they're 18 or 23...being ready is most important for their development. Vecchione should be on the roster over Goulbourne right now, but I still think Lindblom's best development needs to happen in the AHL for another few weeks. Let him sustain something for more than a few weeks. He's finally, finally acing the league. 3 weeks more in the Valley ain't holding him back.

    Lindblom, Morin and Vecchione have probably done enough to earn looks at the NHL level. Voyobyev needs to finish the year in the AHL. Meyers needs to as well. They've missed enough time and neither is really ready yet. Don't rush. It doesn't do anything.

    And the thing is no one is pretending we're a playoff team. Entering last night we were a point below the Penguins and had games in hand. Yeah, we laid an egg, but one game means nothing. The team isn't far off from a playoff spot. If these kids kick in (which could happen), and play with far more consistency, or the lightbulb goes on for Patrick...or hell, the team just lets some of the kids who are up right now loose...we could every well sneak in. I think you're far too pessimistic, and have been, on where the team currently is. 16 of 31 teams make the playoffs. I don't think it's insane to think the Flyers could sneak in as a 16th team.

    When it comes to the draft? I don't care about the draft yet. Names change. There's a lot of time between now and then. The Flyers have done a wonderful job drafting. They've gone off the board on Sanheim (home run). They hit on Provorov (home run) even if some thought we had too many D-prospects. They traded up for Frost who looks like a home run. The hit on Hart thus far which has been a home run. Found Meyers on the UDFA list (home run). They've found a few others later in the draft who look like prospects. I'll worry about who we're picking later. Who we're trading up for later. If there's one thing the front office should have full support on...it's the draft. They'll probably pick the right guy.
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