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  1. #226
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    also the lines aren't blurred for me at all, I've been a Warriors fan since the Baron Davis, Jason Richardson days ...all the way until now as Green and Curry are among my favorite players..

    But I just can't respect what Durant did.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    It's not childish at all. The man shied away from competition. That's hard to respect in competitive sports.

    Durant got his ring riding the coat tails of a team that did it with out him and really didn't need him at all. The same team that just won 72 games, ran through him on their way to a championship, and we're already on their way to being a dynasty with out him... Again, it's something to consider man.

    All these other players teaming up weren't going to teams that were winning ships with out them and setting all time records for most wins. They were forming to try and create something like that..
    Exactly.

  3. #228
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    so......this obviously turned into a bunch of complaining about where someone chose to work instead of the actual topic.
    complain all you want broken records. wont change the fact that the dubs are winning and the ratings are up. you all should be happy about KD coming to the bay. without that move teams like the rockets, thunder, twolves, pelicans, Cavs, Boston, and kinda the bucks wouldn't have actually put some effort into putting a decent product on the court. for the first time in awhile im legit watching other teams (not just GSW) play.


    Anyway all this "LUCK" is just karma for drafting Todd ****ing Fuller ahead of Kobe in 96.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    I obviously fully understand the hate and am fine with it, but I'm not going to entertain the notion that he can't be considered better than "X" player simply because of where he's playing. I know what level of ball KD is capable of, pre/during/post Warriors. If he proves to be better than Kobe (I think he is) for longer than Kobe (we will see), then he's better than Kobe. Period.
    right, but context forms at different levels for every person judging. Plenty will side with me, plenty with you. At the end of the day, Durant will get a fair ranking. I will probably have him low, you high.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I disagree with that first part.. there was a huge Gap of the Bulls and the rest of the league at the time. If MJ wasn't gone for 2 years a lot of ppl think he would have 8 rings.
    disagree, but that is another subject. Phil using Horace as a whipping boy, and him joining the up and coming Magic, who were a nightmare matchup for the Bulls, would have disrupted that 8 peat.

    I don't think the gap was a large each season for the Bulls. The last 3 chips, they had a couple of years where they weren't sprinting while the rest of the league was jogging. Furthermore, pile up the MVP's, All NBA teams, all star nods, etc, and after this GS team is done, they will have blown the doors off the talent level of every team ever. Also remember, Jordan didn't have to play himself, where as the Dubs just hammered a team led by a player on Jordan's level haha.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Concerning the hate, I think the line has been muddled and people really only differentiate when pressed. As I've said a hundred times I understand the hate on KD, but I don't think proper weight is given given the fact that nobody (certainly less than 3 times in history max) of his caliber has actually ever been in that position (to be a free agent as a top player and able to sign for the max with the top team).

    Ultimately, I get it, and I simply don't care. It comes off as extremely childish to warp your rankings based on a grown man's honest decision, and not his actual on-court impact. I'd rather more hate be placed on the dead-beat dad's and wife-beaters, if we're being real about off-court input here.
    Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

    If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

    An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    no doubt, but there are consequences to such an uncompetitive move, even if it's for the betterment of your situation. It will always follow Durant, because it was an unprecedented level of beta action by someone at a level where we simply expect more balls from.

    Look, Durant did what was best for him, he has stayed consistent with the fact that he doesn't care what others think about him. However, even though it doesn't keep him up at night, there is in fact a massive portion of fans that think he vag'ed out. Is what it is.

    By no means does it change Durant winning titles, being happy, and doing exactly what he wanted to do. Kudos to him, sometimes decisions benefit and hurt you.
    People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

    Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    disagree, but that is another subject. Phil using Horace as a whipping boy, and him joining the up and coming Magic, who were a nightmare matchup for the Bulls, would have disrupted that 8 peat.

    I don't think the gap was a large each season for the Bulls. The last 3 chips, they had a couple of years where they weren't sprinting while the rest of the league was jogging. Furthermore, pile up the MVP's, All NBA teams, all star nods, etc, and after this GS team is done, they will have blown the doors off the talent level of every team ever. Also remember, Jordan didn't have to play himself, where as the Dubs just hammered a team led by a player on Jordan's level haha.
    Yeah but we're not comparing the Bulls to the Warriors ... we're talking about the gap of each respective team to the rest of the league in each era.

    I remember Orlando losing to the Bulls (with Grant) and Shaq leaving for the Lakers shortly after? Maybe I'm not remembering clearly but I think Penny was pretty much done after that as well wasn't he ?

    I was just speaking of the sheer dominance the Bulls had over the rest of the league. But you're right now that I think of it Jordans first 6 years or so he had to go through Pistons and Celtics which were great teams in their own right.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

    Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.
    I don't even get the "doing what's best for family" arguement.

    Durant would have gotten paid no matter where he went. This is about competition, in a competitive pro league he decided to go join a dynasty. The money would have been green no matter where he played and his family set for life regardless. Pulling that card doesn't really prove anything.

    Durant simply joined the winners, to become one because he couldn't beat them on his own team. That's not competition. That certainly effects legacy imo
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 11-14-2017 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

    If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

    An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.
    Well said I can agree with this as well

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

    If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

    An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.
    Yes I think your posts get to the point many have made pretty well here. It isn't like people are saying well he made this move so he now sucks as an individual player or anything like that (outside of trolls). It just makes it very hard to give him any credit for the accomplishments aspect when he joined a team that is favorite to win without him even playing. That is what we normally call a role player when giving out credit tbh not top 20 all time great etc.

    If you look at KD's entire career he has had two good post season runs. One was when he was next to Westy/Harden/Ibaka and the other on this team. He has played well in the playoffs when surrounded by extreme talent like that yet in between those years with only one MVP type guy next to him and no other stars (or for one run even without that). PER 22.6, WS/48 .155, BPM 4.4 with an ortg of 110. The last 3 playoff runs combined for James Harden are higher in every single one of those areas yet KD is some top 10 talent while many take shots at Harden for his post season play. When KD is not surrounded by crazy talent he falls off in a major way as an individual player it would seem, to the extent of being slightly less productive statistically than James Harden. I can name tons of other players too, that was just one of the first I looked at to compare. I have pointed out how he almost always has a teammate outperforming him in RPM/RAPM and on/off numbers (Thunder and GS).

    Going to a team that was already matching up with other all time greats without you will definitely get you accolades but it won't tell us anything about him as an individual. I saw a 31 year old Iggy double his ppg, guard Lebron all series and up his efficiency on the way to a FMVP next to this crew too. It's a bit easier when teams are focused more on stopping Curry and you get easy lanes or open shots with spacing etc. It was totally up to him to make the choice where he wanted to go but the accolades he gets now etc. are not the same type of boost given the obvious context of his move. Again he isn't the best offensive or defensive player on this team even.

  12. #237
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    also in my heart of hearts I believe Kobe is owed another MVP.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Yeah but we're not comparing the Bulls to the Warriors ... we're talking about the gap of each respective team to the rest of the league in each era.

    I remember Orlando losing to the Bulls (with Grant) and Shaq leaving for the Lakers shortly after? Maybe I'm not remembering clearly but I think Penny was pretty much done after that as well wasn't he ?

    I was just speaking of the sheer dominance the Bulls had over the rest of the league. But you're right now that I think of it Jordans first 6 years or so he had to go through Pistons and Celtics which were great teams in their own right.
    nah, it's nitpicking, but I believe the Warriors have a larger gap between the 2nd place team than the Bulls did. Jordan is the GOAT, but he also caught the perfect timing, the league was a bit weaker imo, expansion had just happened, the great 80's teams were fading, and don't get me wrong, there were great players/teams, but I don't ever remember the seasons being a foregone conclusion, like last year, this year, and the future. But, crazy things happen in sports....

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

    Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.
    exactly dude. Not sure how many times I have to spell it out. The Warriors, and Durant, did nothing wrong. This does nothing to tarnish the championship for the Warriors, they, and Durant, played within the rules. But individual legacy is a real thing, and Durant hurt his. He has plenty of time to make up for it, but he just isn't going to get the same credit a LeBron in 2016 did, for his finals MVP/win last year. Like not even remotely close actually.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I don't even get the "doing what's best for family" arguement.

    Durant would have gotten paid no matter where he went. This is about competition, in a competitive pro league he decided to go join a dynasty. The money would have been green no matter where he played and his family set for life regardless. Pulling that card doesn't really prove anything.

    Durant simply joined the winners, to become one because he couldn't beat them on his own team. That's not competition. That certainly effects legacy imo
    Durant has stated he doesn't care what people think of him, or care about his legacy. He only wants to win. So, he stayed true to his word. However, that doesn't mean people aren't going to care, or judge him for his actions. That is how life works.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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