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Thread: Jimmy G Traded

  1. #31
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    BB thought he built a great team this year, by waiting to the deadline he had insurance in case TB went down.

    However it's clear this team has no chance of winning without TB this year

    It looks like that JG hanging around on a cheap deal was vapor. No way they can afford carrying both.

    Now, here is where some will disagree. I think on really good team with a really good OL, JG would be fine. But, our OL won't be really good again until when? We've been levitating for a couple of years with increasingly weak OL's and DL's. We won't have high picks because we'll keep above .500. This team or next year could end up being an '09-'10 deal, 11-5, get smoked in the playoffs. If JG took over for '19, besides the crazy cost he'd have to deal with problems. Paying for JB and TB would gut the teams depth.

    This will become obvious on the 49's. I don't think he can stay TB cool. He's also smaller and finer boned than TB. I see more injuries. QB is tough in the NFL, you have lesser weapons and coaching you have to do more to win. JG looks like a guy within a system, what will he do when he's pressed out of it?
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    He wouldn't extend, he'd be tagged. They could match an (unlikely) non-exclusive tag offer from another team and get two 1s in return if they let him go, or they could hit him with the exclusive tag and make him stay. Brady would then be done in two years if Jimmy stayed. Either way it beats a 2nd IMO.

    One year with a high cap hit was worth it, IMO, to reap a long term benefit.
    I don't think you're hearing me: who care about the franchise tag, the issue is the terms of JG's extension. That's where the viability of a seamless Brady --> Garappolo transition really lied, IMO.

    The Pats have finished with 12+ wins in 11 of the past 14 seasons. None of that is possible if Brady is being paid like Peyton Manning. If Jimmy's going rate is 5 x ~120-125M, I would argue we'll see more 9-7 or 10-6 seasons (be hit harder by the business cycle, a la NYG, PIT, BAL) than the current benchmark.

    What made Jimmy so enticing is a 2nd-round QB with the prospect of a team-friendly extension. If he's making top-10 money and turns out to be a B+ player, you're screwed.

    I think there are a few quarterback scenarios in this league:
    1) You don't have one; desperation mode, overpay (what's driving this QB bubble)
    2) Draft an elite QB but get crushed on the extension (Indy with Luck, probably Philly w/ Wentz) -- hence avoid high picks
    3) Outright bloated extensions like Stafford (I believe that's his 3rd, right?)

    The sweet stop is drafting someone mid-round and hopefully re-sign early. If Jimmy was amenable to that, just wanted immediate playing time, then the Patriots made a big mistake. If he just wanted the mega-deal/security, the Pats were spared because I can assure you that the results would've been very disappointing.
    Last edited by elements1985; 11-01-2017 at 10:55 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    I don't think you're hearing me: who care about the franchise tag, the issue is the terms of JG's extension. That's where the viability of a seamless Brady --> Garappolo transition really lied, IMO.

    The Pats have finished with 12+ wins in 11 of the past 14 seasons. None of that is possible if Brady is being paid like Peyton Manning. If Jimmy's going rate is 5 x ~120-125M, I would argue we'll see more 9-7 or 10-6 seasons (be hit harder by the business cycle, a la NYG, PIT, BAL) than the current benchmark.

    What made Jimmy so enticing is a 2nd-round QB with the prospect of a team-friendly extension. If he's making top-10 money and turns out to be a B+ player, you're screwed.

    I think there are a few quarterback scenarios in this league:
    1) You don't have one; desperation mode, overpay (what's driving this QB bubble)
    2) Draft an elite QB but get crushed on the extension (Indy with Luck, probably Philly w/ Wentz) -- hence avoid high picks
    3) Outright bloated extensions like Stafford (I believe that's his 3rd, right?)

    The sweet stop is drafting someone mid-round and hopefully re-sign early. If Jimmy was amenable to that, just wanted immediate playing time, then the Patriots made a big mistake. If he just wanted the mega-deal/security, the Pats were spared because I can assure you that the results would've been very disappointing.

    I don't think it's complicated. You tag Jimmy in 2018, trade Brady in 2019 and then extend Jimmy as the QB of the future. He stays and plays.

    They'd have to forget about most FAs for one year but they'd make up for some of that by trading and getting more than a high 2nd for Brady. Yeah Brady will still be one of the best, but not for much longer, so you take the PR hit and make the smart move for the future.

    They have good players coming back from IR next year, plus their own draft picks, so it's not like the team would be decimated by paying two QBs for one year.

    The CBA gave them a way to keep Jimmy and it made sense to use the tag because the Brady era is coming to its inevitable end anyway you look at it. Maybe you'd have to make the transition two years sooner than you want but that's the smart thing to do for the long term.

    Joe Montana to Steve Young, Brett Favre to Aaron Rodgers, both were SMART decisions and "Bill the historian" should know better.

    Whatever, as of right now, the Pats are poised to become the post Bird and McHale Celtics but they have a possible three years to correct this "mistake". We'll see how it goes.
    Last edited by TKO; 11-02-2017 at 08:38 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    I don't think it's complicated. You tag Jimmy in 2018, trade Brady in 2019 and then extend Jimmy as the QB of the future. He stays and plays.

    They'd have to forget about most FAs for one year but they'd make up for some of that by trading and getting more than a high 2nd for Brady. Yeah Brady will still be one of the best, but not for much longer, so you take the PR hit and make the smart move for the future.

    They have good players coming back from IR next year, plus their own draft picks, so it's not like the team would be decimated by paying two QBs for one year.

    The CBA gave them a way to keep Jimmy and it made sense to use the tag because the Brady era is coming to its inevitable end anyway you look at it. Maybe you'd have to make the transition two years sooner than you want but that's the smart thing to do for the long term.

    Joe Montana to Steve Young, Brett Favre to Aaron Rodgers, both were SMART decisions and "Bill the historian" should know better.

    Whatever, as of right now, the Pats are poised to become the post Bird and McHale Celtics but they have a possible three years to correct this "mistake". We'll see how it goes.
    If you can't throw out extension figures this convo is absolutely pointless.

    Most of the NFL subscribes to acquiring/retaining QB's by any means necessary (Detroit), but the Pats are not most of the NFL.

    It sounds nice, Montana to Young, Favre to Rodgers, but the bubble in QB contracts is WAY too complex to ignore the financials. Football is a team sport after all.

    I think the Packers with Rodgers have been very disappointing/underachieving. Cap ramifications from QB? Maybe.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by elements1985 View Post
    If you can't throw out extension figures this convo is absolutely pointless.

    Most of the NFL subscribes to acquiring/retaining QB's by any means necessary (Detroit), but the Pats are not most of the NFL.

    It sounds nice, Montana to Young, Favre to Rodgers, but the bubble in QB contracts is WAY too complex to ignore the financials. Football is a team sport after all.

    I think the Packers with Rodgers have been very disappointing/underachieving. Cap ramifications from QB? Maybe.
    Keeping Jimmy was the first step, trading Brady would've been the second step and signing Jimmy to an extension is the third step. They would have done it AFTER making the long term commitment to him. What's the point of talking numbers now when they depend on the top QB contracts and the cap in 2019?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    Keeping Jimmy was the first step, trading Brady would've been the second step and signing Jimmy to an extension is the third step. They would have done it AFTER making the long term commitment to him. What's the point of talking numbers now when they depend on the top QB contracts and the cap in 2019?
    But there's no 'keeping' Jimmy without an extension, unless you do a series of one year deals at mega dollars via tag. Which isn't viable long-term, you obviously know that.

    It comes down to this: you subscribe to conventional wisdom of NFL GM's (sign a QB no matter the price) whereas I think devoting ~20% of your cap to 4% of of a 53-man roster is a problem ... regardless of on field talent and importance of the QB position.

    There are a few players in this highest paid QB's bracket I wouldn't mind having. But do I want to be any of their franchises? No not really.... Maybe that's the spoiled Pats fan in me talking....

    QB/Contract
    Andrew Luck*(2016-2021)
    Aaron Rodgers*(2013-2019)
    Cam Newton*(2015-2020)
    Matt Ryan*(2013-2018)
    Andy Dalton*(2014-2020)
    Russell Wilson*(2015-2019)
    Ben Roethlisberger*(2015-2019)
    Eli Manning*(2015-2019)
    Philip Rivers*(2015-2019)
    Ryan Tannehill*(2015-2020)*
    Alex Smith*(2014-2018)
    Joe Flacco*(2016-2021)
    Mike Glennon*(2017-2019)

    Unless we know the details and terms of a Garappolo extension, it's hard to make any presumptions on projected team success IMO. Wasn't that the point of keeping JG -- to continue the dynasty and rip out another 10 year run? You can't do that in a vacuum and not talk salary.
    Last edited by elements1985; 11-04-2017 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #37
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    One reason the trade was for a probable low 30's 2nd "only'. Is that Jimmy G is going to be paid at least $15M per for say 5 years. But maybe he doesn't want to play in SF or gets a better bid. SF is screwed.

    Everyone I listen to says JG doesn't practice well - he's not as intense, not as good. He's "saving it". I can't see BB being really warm and fuzzy about that guy, nor a guy that goes down early in his big chance, and doesn't seem to come back very fast.

    The day should come that JG is better than TB, but when? Pats fans (normal ones) want to see Brady in a Bengals uniform? Well if he retires here after 2.5 more years, that means JG gets franchised twice in a row for what $19M per? He clearly was not taking some chump money deal to stay.

    I also said here I don't think JG can handle a screwed up team. This team is need of the biggest rebuild since at least '09-'10. If JG is a beat up basket case after 3 years of that, then why do we really need this?

    BB has more insight into all of this, and this is what he did. I doubt he's senile yet.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    One reason the trade was for a probable low 30's 2nd "only'. Is that Jimmy G is going to be paid at least $15M per for say 5 years. But maybe he doesn't want to play in SF or gets a better bid. SF is screwed.

    Everyone I listen to says JG doesn't practice well - he's not as intense, not as good. He's "saving it". I can't see BB being really warm and fuzzy about that guy, nor a guy that goes down early in his big chance, and doesn't seem to come back very fast.

    The day should come that JG is better than TB, but when? Pats fans (normal ones) want to see Brady in a Bengals uniform? Well if he retires here after 2.5 more years, that means JG gets franchised twice in a row for what $19M per? He clearly was not taking some chump money deal to stay.

    I also said here I don't think JG can handle a screwed up team. This team is need of the biggest rebuild since at least '09-'10. If JG is a beat up basket case after 3 years of that, then why do we really need this?

    BB has more insight into all of this, and this is what he did. I doubt he's senile yet.
    I think 5 x 15M is actually a pretty good deal - pay more on the front end, better value (hopefully) in years 3-5. Anything north of 19M however I'd have serious cause for concern.

    Especially since the Pats need a D and money for the rebuild you mentioned. Under a large contract, I think fans would be sorely disappointed in the results of a JG era.

    And to your point: a high 2nd might suck in comparison to the 1st(s) *allegedly offered by CLE this off-season. But reasonable for an 8 game rental. It's entirely possible BB waited to evaluate Brady's performance for insurance.
    Last edited by elements1985; 11-04-2017 at 07:55 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    One reason the trade was for a probable low 30's 2nd "only'. Is that Jimmy G is going to be paid at least $15M per for say 5 years. But maybe he doesn't want to play in SF or gets a better bid. SF is screwed.

    Everyone I listen to says JG doesn't practice well - he's not as intense, not as good. He's "saving it". I can't see BB being really warm and fuzzy about that guy, nor a guy that goes down early in his big chance, and doesn't seem to come back very fast.

    The day should come that JG is better than TB, but when? Pats fans (normal ones) want to see Brady in a Bengals uniform? Well if he retires here after 2.5 more years, that means JG gets franchised twice in a row for what $19M per? He clearly was not taking some chump money deal to stay.

    I also said here I don't think JG can handle a screwed up team. This team is need of the biggest rebuild since at least '09-'10. If JG is a beat up basket case after 3 years of that, then why do we really need this?

    BB has more insight into all of this, and this is what he did. I doubt he's senile yet.
    One reason why they only got a 2nd is the Niners only have eight games to figure Jimmy out. BB was warm and fuzzy for him as recently as April and has said the change from Brady to Jimmy has always been seamless. My only concern is Jimmy's durability but Brady's health is no lock in his 40s. The only thing that has changed since April is that BB has decided Brady is staying put. So, in effect he's decided to take a short term view in favor of the long term solution. It doesn't take a whole lot of insight to see any of it. Now BB has to find a Qb or he's screwed the team post-Brady...get ready for the post-Bird Celts if he can't find the next great one.

  10. #40
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    I also believe there's a lot less going on under the hoodie than some think. Why? Because five months after getting the word out that Jimmy was untouchable, even for as much four #1s, Belichick all of a sudden said he had "sustained" the Jimmy train as far as he could. IMO..He wouldn't have traded Brissette, for what has amounted to four receptions in eight games so far by Dorsett, if he knew it all along. Was it a revelation to him at the trade deadline? It seems to be the case, and that he had made a mistake and now had to make the best of it.

    It's funny how he showed the hallmark of politicians caught in an obvious mistake..."I'm not taking any questions on this topic after my statement." LOL! Ok Bill, keep the Yoda image going but you still screwed up.

    Why the Niners? The high 2nd? That's not the whole story IMO because BB could have gotten more at the draft, and at the deadline, from the Browns who had their own botched trade of a 2nd and 3rd for McCarron. The plausible reason for the Niners is because he had traded away Brissette and decided he needed to move Jimmy "all of a sudden". He misplayed his Qb chips and needed Hoyer plus the 2nd, so the Niners were the cherry-picked trade partner. That is an example of how to lose leverage...but "I'm not taking questions on that".

    BB played the situation poorly IMO and had to get Hoyer...plain and simple or put the TEAM at severe risk by this move.

    In retrospect and to this point, BB didn't help the TEAM by trading Brissett for Dorsett or by setting them up for failure in the post-Brady years, unless they get lucky again like they did with Brady. There's luck involved in getting any QB that has "it" but they appeared to have two of them and decided the long-term-one needed to go. All of a sudden of course.

  11. #41
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    With a potential pick among the top two in the 2018 NFL draft and roughly $60 million in salary-cap space in the offseason, the 49ers ultimately could decide to draft their quarterback of the future or use some of their money to sign a free-agent quarterback such as Washington's Kirk Cousins, sources said.

    If the 49ers decide to not sign Garoppolo to a long-term deal, they could use a franchise tag on him and then dangle him to the highest bidder in a trade. If they were to do that, there would be interest, sources said, and they could possibly get back more than the second-round pick they surrendered.



    Come on! Can't be possible...that would mean BB got snookered...

  12. #42
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    We couldn't afford the risk... or the franchise tag. We got what we could and moved on...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosston View Post
    We couldn't afford the risk... or the franchise tag. We got what we could and moved on...

    They got what they could? The Browns offered a 2nd and 3rd for the Bengals backup in a botched trade at the deadline so more could have been demanded from them for Jimmy. Of course, BB never talked to them or anyone else except the Niners, so maybe you'd be right if you said they got what they could from them and left the other 30 teams out of the equation. He needed Hoyer because he screwed up by trading Brissett for four receptions to this point.

    The hoodie is no card sharp when you evaluate his Qb moves this year. We'll see if they come home to roost in 2020 when the end of the Brady era is on the Pats doorstep, and if they haven't found a franchise Qb.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO View Post
    They got what they could? The Browns offered a 2nd and 3rd for the Bengals backup in a botched trade at the deadline so more could have been demanded from them for Jimmy. Of course, BB never talked to them or anyone else except the Niners, so maybe you'd be right if you said they got what they could from them and left the other 30 teams out of the equation. He needed Hoyer because he screwed up by trading Brissett for four receptions to this point.

    The hoodie is no card sharp when you evaluate his Qb moves this year. We'll see if they come home to roost in 2020 when the end of the Brady era is on the Pats doorstep, and if they haven't found a franchise Qb.
    Yes, they got what they could. It's really not hard to understand. Jimmy G would be worth a lot more if he was under a contract, but he's not after this year. The entire NFL knows that and they know that NE was not going to resign him for a ridiculous amount of money. This means he would either be franchised (NE was not going to franchise him), signed (NE was not going to sign him), or walk (He was going after the money and chance to start). The league knew that he wasn't going to be a Patriot next year, essentially making him worth whatever amount of games are left this year for evaluation, learning a new offense, etc. A very early 2nd round pick is a lot better than Jimmy G strutting around the sidelines taking up a roster spot for the rest of the year.

    In layman terms... would you overpay for something you can get if you just wait it out? The Niners could have just signed him after this year because they know NE won't sign or franchise him. The second round pick allows them to have him for half a season and evaluate what type of contract they want to give him.
    Last edited by Bosston; 11-07-2017 at 11:33 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosston View Post
    Yes, they got what they could. It's really not hard to understand. Jimmy G would be worth a lot more if he was under a contract, but he's not after this year. The entire NFL knows that and they know that NE was not going to resign him for a ridiculous amount of money. This means he would either be franchised (NE was not going to franchise him), signed (NE was not going to sign him), or walk (He was going after the money and chance to start). The league knew that he wasn't going to be a Patriot next year, essentially making him worth whatever amount of games are left this year for evaluation, learning a new offense, etc. A very early 2nd round pick is a lot better than Jimmy G strutting around the sidelines taking up a roster spot for the rest of the year.

    In layman terms... would you overpay for something you can get if you just wait it out? The Niners could have just signed him after this year because they know NE won't sign or franchise him. The second round pick allows them to have him for half a season and evaluate what type of contract they want to give him.
    The Browns were set to give the Bengals a very early 2nd and a very early 3rd for McCarron, a RFA next year, so they were ready to do that for what amounts to one year. See Butler last year...

    The league knew Jimmy wouldn't be a Patriot next year? Did Bill? Apparently not. Otherwise he would have traded for more at the last draft...but for some reason he didn't have much of a dialog with the Browns...or this past deadline if he had only talked to them again. He didn't have a problem talking to them about Collins. Face it, he botched the QB situation this year, but he's not taking questions. LOL! You'd better hope Jimmy and Brissette both turn out to be average Qbs or you'll be hoping for a do-over that won't be coming.

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