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  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    +/- isn't the end all be all discussion. Explain how he ended up a positive last night with him playing as bad as he did. I don't buy it and it wasn't meant to be used that way. It's more effective as one of bunch of different metrics.

    Using Dunn as an example, Dunn became a better version of himself. He didn't become a different player.

    A better version of what Frank still leaves a ton of questions about his ability to play PG. Here is where the problem is.

    I am not doubting that he'll get better.

    Also, it's quite the opposite with some of those players. There is less concern because they are struggling with things that they've already done. Frank has never done any of the things you desire. Those players has to adapt their game to the speed of the NBA. Whether they do it or not is another thing. Frank has to learn brand new skill sets, which is far more difficult.
    Yes, I can explain it.

    The Knicks defense allows 106.1 points per 100 possessions when Frank is on the court.

    When Burke has been on the court, in his limited minutes, that number is 118.2.

    When Mudiay has been on the court, in even more limited minutes, that number is 118.1.

    Yes, these two are currently better offensive players than Frank, and that shows on that side as well. However, they are far from great and their impact doesn't come close to the vacuum they create on the other end.

    The Knicks offensive rating with Burke is 110.9.

    With Mudiay, 108.0.

    With Frank, 104.2.

    As a result, Frank's on court rating is the best of them at -1.9, and his on/off +1.0.

    Burke's on court is -7.3, his on/off -5.7.

    Mudiay's on court is -10.1, his on/off is -7.7. Tiny sample or not, this is consistent with his career for a reason.

    Jack's, for the record, is -1.5 and +2.1. This makes sense as he is in the middle ground. He is heady like Frank when it comes to organizing an offense, while his own ability is far better today. While he is bad on D, he is not as horrendously bad on D as the other two.

    It's simple math. It doesn't mean it should be used as a player ranking stat, but it just is what it says it is.

    The thing is, what good is being a "good" offensive player if you're not good enough to be one of the top options on a good team? We see this with Tim Hardaway Jr and it is an area that young players who suck on D and lack overall well rounded games find themselves in. If you aren't an efficient player, or aren't making those around you better, are you really helping your team by starting and taking 15 shots a game? For these players, the answer is usually no.

    So yeah, while Frank may not develop into a 20+ PPG scorer like some of these guys potentially will, it doesn't mean that he still won't make a better on court impact than they do. Some of these guys may end up in that space you don't want to be in. Some of these guys will be players who do nothing but put up numbers on bad teams.

    There are players who may be better individual players than others but aren't better on a legit playoff team for this reason. People have said this about someone like Kevin Love for years, for example. Kevin Love is a better player than Draymond Green as an individual, without question. You throw Green on those Minnesota teams in his place and they are lucky to win 20 games, let alone 40. But if you put them in a role where they are the 3rd best player on the team? Well, then Green is easily better.
    Last edited by FOXHOUND; 02-13-2018 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #842
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    I keep seeing list of players but not once was those players said to have lack of talent in the area they were drafted for, the ability was already there,

    What some are saying is don't get your hopes on Frank being that PG the Knicks will need in the future. I mean Lebron got abused for his comment which was at Phil but was he so wrong? Any NBA player can see Frank does not have the handle that today's PG's require.

    But hey he is a Knick he was drafted #8 and he has to be that first guy ever to come into the NBA without a handle and develop one?

    Ok I'm in..............I hope he does, any one want to bet a stack of cash on it, and say in 2 more season come back and visit how his handle is not on the NBA level caliber?

    We all hope for things, we all hope for Lotto also, we all hope the Knicks will end this being bad drought............

    Hope is all we have, reality though is simple understanding not to get disappointments from all this hope.

    I like Frank, I want him to succeed in a two guard alignment, he will not be given the keys to the car, Perry and Jeff are making this blatantly obvious with Trey, interest in other PG's and now Mudiay.

    There is also something called acceptance and trying to put that square in a round hole can set the franchise back a couple more years. He's 19 he will play more and more off the ball, just watch and see, and he himself can get talented guys to give him one on one summer coaching to improve his handle. There are many drills, ever watch Curry before a game? Think Frank will ever be able to do that?

    Hope and pray, nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let reality get mixed in with dreamland.


    Has anyone listened to Clyde talk about Frank and his handle? Clyde keeps talking about him now off the ball and likes the two guard alignment, I think Clyde the ultimate PG with a great handle can see more than the average fan can. Wally, and alan are saying the same thing. They like Frank off the ball and think this is wise. but some of you want to throw him to the wall and see if it sticks, yea that will help his confidence.

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddygreen17 View Post
    This is why, IMO, you shouldn't be able to come into the league until:

    2 years mandatory if you choose college.
    if you are 18 right out of HS and want to join league - you can be drafted, but must go to D league for 1 year mandatory (and even then, must be voted out by coaches - or some type of checklist)
    This is a great topic to theoretically discuss. I'm sure there has been threads about this in the NBA forum but I don't go there much. I am so big on what you outlined I think the NBA needs to do this. Especially after the big college scandal. I would even go 3 years minimum in college which is basically baseball rules. Expand 2 way contracts, which was a good concept by Silver. I think you would have many more players opt to go straight to the league to get paid but have a much bigger G-League presence. Use it as a true minor league to actually develop players. Maybe that helps take the stigma away from the G-League and improves the actual competition players are going against. I would also then expand the draft again to 3 rounds. I honestly thought that Silver was considering this after the big scandal with the NCAA, agents, and shoe companies.

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    I keep seeing list of players but not once was those players said to have lack of talent in the area they were drafted for, the ability was already there,

    What some are saying is don't get your hopes on Frank being that PG the Knicks will need in the future. I mean Lebron got abused for his comment which was at Phil but was he so wrong? Any NBA player can see Frank does not have the handle that today's PG's require.

    But hey he is a Knick he was drafted #8 and he has to be that first guy ever to come into the NBA without a handle and develop one?

    Ok I'm in..............I hope he does, any one want to bet a stack of cash on it, and say in 2 more season come back and visit how his handle is not on the NBA level caliber?

    We all hope for things, we all hope for Lotto also, we all hope the Knicks will end this being bad drought............

    Hope is all we have, reality though is simple understanding not to get disappointments from all this hope.

    I like Frank, I want him to succeed in a two guard alignment, he will not be given the keys to the car, Perry and Jeff are making this blatantly obvious with Trey, interest in other PG's and now Mudiay.

    There is also something called acceptance and trying to put that square in a round hole can set the franchise back a couple more years. He's 19 he will play more and more off the ball, just watch and see, and he himself can get talented guys to give him one on one summer coaching to improve his handle. There are many drills, ever watch Curry before a game? Think Frank will ever be able to do that?

    Hope and pray, nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let reality get mixed in with dreamland.


    Has anyone listened to Clyde talk about Frank and his handle? Clyde keeps talking about him now off the ball and likes the two guard alignment, I think Clyde the ultimate PG with a great handle can see more than the average fan can. Wally, and alan are saying the same thing. They like Frank off the ball and think this is wise. but some of you want to throw him to the wall and see if it sticks, yea that will help his confidence.
    The problem is thinking like this 55 games into a 19-year olds career. What role Frank should be at age 19 does not mean that role will be the same when he is 21. But yes, Frank today can benefit from more off ball play and they are starting to do that.

    That doesn't mean that he still shouldn't be developed to play PG. That he is big enough to easily play minutes at SG doesn't mean that you change his development path. Being that size, multi-position play has always been something in the pro column of his development. It's no different than someone like Lonzo being able to play SG cause hes 6'6, or Simmons playing PG or PF as he's 6'9, or any multi-position player. Just because something is different than the norm from the position doesn't mean it's wrong.

  5. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Yes, I can explain it.

    The Knicks defense allows 106.1 points per 100 possessions when Frank is on the court.

    When Burke has been on the court, in his limited minutes, that number is 118.2.

    When Mudiay has been on the court, in even more limited minutes, that number is 118.1.

    Yes, these two are currently better offensive players than Frank, and that shows on that side as well. However, they are far from great and their impact doesn't come close to the vacuum they create on the other end.

    The Knicks offensive rating with Burke is 110.9.

    With Mudiay, 108.0.

    With Frank, 104.2.

    As a result, Frank's on court rating is the best of them at -1.9, and his on/off +1.0.

    Burke's on court is -7.3, his on/off -5.7.

    Mudiay's on court is -10.1, his on/off is -7.7. Tiny sample or not, this is consistent with his career for a reason.

    Jack's, for the record, is -1.5 and +2.1. This makes sense as he is in the middle ground. He is heady like Frank when it comes to organizing an offense, while his own ability is far better today. While he is bad on D, he is not as horrendously bad on D as the other two.

    It's simple math. It doesn't mean it should be used as a player ranking stat, but it just is what it says it is.

    The thing is, what good is being a "good" offensive player if you're not good enough to be one of the top options on a good team? We see this with Tim Hardaway Jr and it is an area that young players who suck on D and lack overall well rounded games find themselves in. If you aren't an efficient player, or aren't making those around you better, are you really helping your team by taking 15 shots a game? For these players, the answer is usually no.

    So yeah, while Frank may not develop into a 20+ PPG scorer like some of these guys potentially will, it doesn't mean that he still won't make a better on court impact than they do. Some of these guys may end up in that space you don't want to be in, where they play like top offensive players but really aren't, so they have no place on any legit playoff team. Some of these guys will be players who do nothing but put up numbers on bad teams.

    There are players who may be better individual players than others but aren't better on a legit playoff team for this reason. People have said this about someone like Kevin Love for years, for example. Kevin Love is a better player than Draymond Green as an individual, without question. You throw Green on those Minnesota teams in his place and they are lucky to win 20 games, let alone 40. But if you put them in a role where they are the 3rd best player on the team? Well, then Green is easily better.
    Great post. Some are simply impatient, and have wanted to label Frank a bust from day 1, so we'll continue to hear that narrative.

    Bottom line is he is somewhat raw on offense, which we sort of knew going in. Other teams (read: good, winning franchises) draft dudes like this and develop them over several years, because they understand the long game.

    Knicks never seem to have a long term plan, and many fans just can't seem to grasp long term planning for actual contention either. It's boom or bust, boom or bust, repeat, and we just end up busting over and over again for decades on end.

    Yes Frank could end up being the wrong pick. He could end up a "bust" by many's definitions. But saying "he gets a pass this year but if he isn't great next year, then he's a bust" is a joke. That's not how you evaluate players. No pro scouts or FO people evaluate that way. It's amateur hour.

    I want Frank to improve asap, and come back next season as a starter averaging 10+ PPG and 7-8 assists, a steal or two, 5+ rebounds etc., and shoot 45+ % from the field. Of course I do. And maybe he does that, or gets close to it (or closer)...

    But maybe he doesn't, and he needs 2-4 years to get there. We really don't know exactly what his trajectory will look like. We also don't exactly know what DSJ's trajectory looks like... Mitchell looks great, and I think he's gonna be a good to great player in this league, but he will need to sustain what he's doing/improve as well and help his team win (which again I believe he will - I like him. **** I like DSJ too)...

    I understand the concern; I genuinely do. I feel concerned and impatient and frustrated at times with Frank. But it is what it is. I like Mudiay but you gotta think that's throwing him slightly as well, mid season adjustment, Hornacek is at least questionable as a coach...

    Again time will tell. Year to year improvement... that's what's paramount here. But as Fox has pointed out, there are positive signs and he has the raw tools so that's a good start.

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by cssdmark View Post
    I am not worried about Frank I am more worried about this organization that has the inability to be patient and develop players. That is why Frank was a bad pick. Why get a project when u do not have the patience or ability to develop players

    And a natural inclination to appease an impatient fan base to boot.
    Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often




  7. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    I keep seeing list of players but not once was those players said to have lack of talent in the area they were drafted for, the ability was already there,

    What some are saying is don't get your hopes on Frank being that PG the Knicks will need in the future. I mean Lebron got abused for his comment which was at Phil but was he so wrong? Any NBA player can see Frank does not have the handle that today's PG's require.

    But hey he is a Knick he was drafted #8 and he has to be that first guy ever to come into the NBA without a handle and develop one?

    Ok I'm in..............I hope he does, any one want to bet a stack of cash on it, and say in 2 more season come back and visit how his handle is not on the NBA level caliber?

    We all hope for things, we all hope for Lotto also, we all hope the Knicks will end this being bad drought............

    Hope is all we have, reality though is simple understanding not to get disappointments from all this hope.

    I like Frank, I want him to succeed in a two guard alignment, he will not be given the keys to the car, Perry and Jeff are making this blatantly obvious with Trey, interest in other PG's and now Mudiay.

    There is also something called acceptance and trying to put that square in a round hole can set the franchise back a couple more years. He's 19 he will play more and more off the ball, just watch and see, and he himself can get talented guys to give him one on one summer coaching to improve his handle. There are many drills, ever watch Curry before a game? Think Frank will ever be able to do that?

    Hope and pray, nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let reality get mixed in with dreamland.


    Has anyone listened to Clyde talk about Frank and his handle? Clyde keeps talking about him now off the ball and likes the two guard alignment, I think Clyde the ultimate PG with a great handle can see more than the average fan can. Wally, and alan are saying the same thing. They like Frank off the ball and think this is wise. but some of you want to throw him to the wall and see if it sticks, yea that will help his confidence.
    I get the concern with his handle. I don't think it's as out of the question as you and others are making it out to be that that can be improved upon however.

    Again he's gotten stripped I think like 13-14 times all year. He's not as bad as advertised. But he absolutely needs to improve it.

    And maybe you're right, and he ends up more of a 2 or 3 who can also be a playmaker. I really don't know and won't pretend to know... what I do know is what we're seeing now is NOT a finished product as much as some would love to make Frank out to be.

  8. #848
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    G-league is growing and changing, as more college players develop more NBA level players this league can turn into a mini minor leagues like baseball has.

    Be great to have a club where you have more than 2 guys you can develop. We just lost a player that the Knick's were developing in Hayes, I like that if your being taught and developed you must be available to that team for that season or till you are released.

    but make no doubt about the G-league is there to develop players and there are some really great NBA players that have gone down and come back a lot more ready.

    But the flip side is each person is different, and only the coach's know how a player being sent down is affected and we have no way of coming close to knowing this unless we met the players.

    Flip side is bringing in a Trey and Mudiay, Knicks say all the right things but do all the wrong things. Talking about affecting a player.

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYY 26 to 7 View Post
    This is a great topic to theoretically discuss. I'm sure there has been threads about this in the NBA forum but I don't go there much. I am so big on what you outlined I think the NBA needs to do this. Especially after the big college scandal. I would even go 3 years minimum in college which is basically baseball rules. Expand 2 way contracts, which was a good concept by Silver. I think you would have many more players opt to go straight to the league to get paid but have a much bigger G-League presence. Use it as a true minor league to actually develop players. Maybe that helps take the stigma away from the G-League and improves the actual competition players are going against. I would also then expand the draft again to 3 rounds. I honestly thought that Silver was considering this after the big scandal with the NCAA, agents, and shoe companies.
    I think this is what the NBA is trying to do, it's just going to take a while. At some point in the future, you gotta think that players will be drafted out of HS and go to the G-League, and largely skip the entire corrupt NCAA process altogether. I hope it's sooner rather than later though. The new CBA expires in 2023-24, with a mutual opt out in 2022-23. I think that gives them a nice enough window to get the G-League where they want it to be and then they can make the major change then.

  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYY 26 to 7 View Post
    This is a great topic to theoretically discuss. I'm sure there has been threads about this in the NBA forum but I don't go there much. I am so big on what you outlined I think the NBA needs to do this. Especially after the big college scandal. I would even go 3 years minimum in college which is basically baseball rules. Expand 2 way contracts, which was a good concept by Silver. I think you would have many more players opt to go straight to the league to get paid but have a much bigger G-League presence. Use it as a true minor league to actually develop players. Maybe that helps take the stigma away from the G-League and improves the actual competition players are going against. I would also then expand the draft again to 3 rounds. I honestly thought that Silver was considering this after the big scandal with the NCAA, agents, and shoe companies.
    Agreed - This will probably destroy NCAA hoops though. They would have to make significant changes
    Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often




  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    I get the concern with his handle. I don't think it's as out of the question as you and others are making it out to be that that can be improved upon however.

    Again he's gotten stripped I think like 13-14 times all year. He's not as bad as advertised. But he absolutely needs to improve it.

    And maybe you're right, and he ends up more of a 2 or 3 who can also be a playmaker. I really don't know and won't pretend to know... what I do know is what we're seeing now is NOT a finished product as much as some would love to make Frank out to be.
    exactly but no one is saying Frank's handle cannot improve, it just won't be up to par with today's NBA PG's handle.

  12. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    exactly but no one is saying Frank's handle cannot improve, it just won't be up to par with today's NBA PG's handle.
    Well that's you drawing an early conclusion and comparing his handle to Kyrie & Steph Curry as you did in the post above, so it's unfair to begin with.

    We'll see. I'm not ready to write him off as a "non-PG" yet. You go ahead and do that to your heart's content.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    I think this is what the NBA is trying to do, it's just going to take a while. At some point in the future, you gotta think that players will be drafted out of HS and go to the G-League, and largely skip the entire corrupt NCAA process altogether. I hope it's sooner rather than later though. The new CBA expires in 2023-24, with a mutual opt out in 2022-23. I think that gives them a nice enough window to get the G-League where they want it to be and then they can make the major change then.

    the G-league will have to develop new set of rules and regulations for this to come close to happening.

    The argument young players have is you can't stop a 18 year old from jumping college to the business world and making millions at an early age. Add the fact that college players now will jump to Europe to help support their families. Sadly we have a St John's player hurt this year and he just accepted a contract for 500K to go to Europe to help his family out.

    Would be nice to sign these type players to the G-league for similar money instead of 600.00 per.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    Great post. Some are simply impatient, and have wanted to label Frank a bust from day 1, so we'll continue to hear that narrative.

    Bottom line is he is somewhat raw on offense, which we sort of knew going in. Other teams (read: good, winning franchises) draft dudes like this and develop them over several years, because they understand the long game.

    Knicks never seem to have a long term plan, and many fans just can't seem to grasp long term planning for actual contention either. It's boom or bust, boom or bust, repeat, and we just end up busting over and over again for decades on end.

    Yes Frank could end up being the wrong pick. He could end up a "bust" by many's definitions. But saying "he gets a pass this year but if he isn't great next year, then he's a bust" is a joke. That's not how you evaluate players. No pro scouts or FO people evaluate that way. It's amateur hour.

    I want Frank to improve asap, and come back next season as a starter averaging 10+ PPG and 7-8 assists, a steal or two, 5+ rebounds etc., and shoot 45+ % from the field. Of course I do. And maybe he does that, or gets close to it (or closer)...

    But maybe he doesn't, and he needs 2-4 years to get there. We really don't know exactly what his trajectory will look like. We also don't exactly know what DSJ's trajectory looks like... Mitchell looks great, and I think he's gonna be a good to great player in this league, but he will need to sustain what he's doing/improve as well and help his team win (which again I believe he will - I like him. **** I like DSJ too)...

    I understand the concern; I genuinely do. I feel concerned and impatient and frustrated at times with Frank. But it is what it is. I like Mudiay but you gotta think that's throwing him slightly as well, mid season adjustment, Hornacek is at least questionable as a coach...

    Again time will tell. Year to year improvement... that's what's paramount here. But as Fox has pointed out, there are positive signs and he has the raw tools so that's a good start.
    Agreed, we all need patience right now.

    Not just on Frank either, the entire plan is going to need a lot more patience with KP's injury.

  15. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    Yes, I can explain it.

    The Knicks defense allows 106.1 points per 100 possessions when Frank is on the court.

    When Burke has been on the court, in his limited minutes, that number is 118.2.

    When Mudiay has been on the court, in even more limited minutes, that number is 118.1.

    Yes, these two are currently better offensive players than Frank, and that shows on that side as well. However, they are far from great and their impact doesn't come close to the vacuum they create on the other end.

    The Knicks offensive rating with Burke is 110.9.

    With Mudiay, 108.0.

    With Frank, 104.2.

    As a result, Frank's on court rating is the best of them at -1.9, and his on/off +1.0.

    Burke's on court is -7.3, his on/off -5.7.

    Mudiay's on court is -10.1, his on/off is -7.7. Tiny sample or not, this is consistent with his career for a reason.

    Jack's, for the record, is -1.5 and +2.1. This makes sense as he is in the middle ground. He is heady like Frank when it comes to organizing an offense, while his own ability is far better today. While he is bad on D, he is not as horrendously bad on D as the other two.

    It's simple math. It doesn't mean it should be used as a player ranking stat, but it just is what it says it is.

    The thing is, what good is being a "good" offensive player if you're not good enough to be one of the top options on a good team? We see this with Tim Hardaway Jr and it is an area that young players who suck on D and lack overall well rounded games find themselves in. If you aren't an efficient player, or aren't making those around you better, are you really helping your team by starting and taking 15 shots a game? For these players, the answer is usually no.

    So yeah, while Frank may not develop into a 20+ PPG scorer like some of these guys potentially will, it doesn't mean that he still won't make a better on court impact than they do. Some of these guys may end up in that space you don't want to be in. Some of these guys will be players who do nothing but put up numbers on bad teams.

    There are players who may be better individual players than others but aren't better on a legit playoff team for this reason. People have said this about someone like Kevin Love for years, for example. Kevin Love is a better player than Draymond Green as an individual, without question. You throw Green on those Minnesota teams in his place and they are lucky to win 20 games, let alone 40. But if you put them in a role where they are the 3rd best player on the team? Well, then Green is easily better.
    Uh, when 2 of the three guys in your study haven't spent any time on the court with KP thus affecting their +/- while playing with the Knicks, don't you think that leads to too many variables for this study to hold any weight?

    I mean you guys really need to stop with all the stats and excuses and look at what's going on on the court. Frank just isn't ready to play PG in the NBA. His best play is the pick and roll, meanwhile he's next to no threat at all going to the basket. I don't care how tall you are or how long your arms are, if you're not a threat going to the hoop, you aint a pg in todays NBA.... with the exception of guys that have other exceptional qualities, and even then, it's very difficult to be in the upper echelon.

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