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Thread: Officiating

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Okay, but they can't keep calling it like they have this year where one gentle bump to the head is a flagrant and another is a no-call. If you watch the games the players regularly tell the refs they were hit on the head and the refs just ignore them. The players expect consistency but the rules are not consistent nor is their implementation.

    The issue I have with it is that the ways the refs decide the severity of the contact is by how extreme the player getting hit reacts. I find it sad when a 180lb guy is held but doesn't complain and no call, then that 180lb guy touches a 230lb guy who launches himself across the floor and it's a foul.

    I guess it all comes back to they need more eyes on the floor.
    they should generally err by not intervening in the game. unfortunately the NBA has not held that view with regard to officiating for some time. an under officiated game is usually fairer and more consistently called game then an over officiated game. call what you are sure of should be the motto. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. Like in the real world 0 tolerance polices are not the solution
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    they should generally err by not intervening in the game. unfortunately the NBA has not held that view with regard to officiating for some time. an under officiated game is usually fairer and more consistently called game then an over officiated game. call what you are sure of should be the motto. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. Like in the real world 0 tolerance polices are not the solution
    And I agree with you ... but the way it is isn't working, and I don't see them going back to the place where head contact wasn't special.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

  3. #303
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    I think they should just call the game by the rules. If there is some ambiguity in what kind of contact constitutes a foul, etc, then they should first of all try to clarify that more in the rules then go from there and call the games by the rules as they are stated.

    One thing that's weird to me is the way the announcers kind of go hand in hand with the referees / league in the way the game is being called, and this carries over to the overall presentation of the "NBA TV" show in general.

    For instance, if a foul call is really marginal or just clearly wrong, many times the announcers will just not say anything. You'll hear a noticeable pause or gap in the commentary and then they just switch the subject. Likewise, if a call is really bad, or more accurately if it isn't congruous with the way the game is being called for the other team, there will almost never be a video replay.

    What I mean by this is, let's say if Harden goes to the line three possessions in a row and it is just like some drawn body contact as he goes up toward the basket or a player jumping upward in front of him etc. If then right after that Steph Curry takes it hard to the hoop in traffic and there is pretty obviously unavoidable body contact and he slides out of bounds but there is no foul call, you will never see close-up replay of that. Likewise if Curry or Ben Simmons is getting pounded on by defenders, but then Harden or somebody just gets an automatic whistle seemingly based on having gotten around their man and missed a shot, you will mostly not see a close up replay of that. Or if it's a really crucial play you will just see a strange angle on the replay, say a camera view up from the floor as Harden makes his layup, that doesn't just plainly show he wasn't really contacted on the play but the ref was on the other side of the defender and just called the foul kind of automatically

    But the ambiguity is a real thing. Like you will see "reach in" type fouls very frequently which seem very marginal, mostly like the player just lost the dribble, but then sometimes on a replay when there was no call you can see that the defenders hand hit the offensive players arm when they are holding the ball to pass or while rebounding and the announcers will say "that looked like a clean steal" or "that looked like a clean block"

    So aside from the announcers kind of smoothing out the sailing ship continually to try and gloss up the refereeing as much as possible, there are also seemingly contradictory interpretations you'll see in the same game: one touch on the arm is a "clear foul", while another is a "clean block."

    And again most of these really marginal calls aren't commented on or shown on replay unless they are crucial to the narrative of the game

    I *kind of* agree with Ewing's statement above about not intervening in the game, however it is clear that teams like this Boston team try to capitalize on that by storming out with a lot of effort and using a lot of rough tactics. Then if you just don't call any fouls either way it is just like an intervention in favor of Boston.

    So I might just rephrase that slightly and say that the refs shouldn't make super marginal calls. For instance, if we the viewers have to watch the call on replay ten times during a timeout, and the radio people are arguing about it the next day, and Vince Pazienza head of NBA refereeing has to come out and explain the physics equations of bodily momentum and motive and intention to the announcers after the commercial break, then bottom line the call was super super marginal and it shouldn't have been called. There is PLENTY of contact every game for the refs to call a few fouls. So the shouldn't make calls that are super marginal. If the call is a coinflip and has to be analyzed in slow-motion for a week to decide was it a foul, then it shouldn't be called a foul. And so when you give Harden these kind of fouls when lesser name brand players are obviously getting hammered and no foul calls then clearly there is something off. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I will say that the one flaw in NBA basketball is the control of the refs running around -- it's why basketball can never be as precise and decisive as tennis or as in-your-face all the marbles definite and final as say boxing or UFC, so that is why the refereeing process should really be transparent. At a minimum the announcers should be willing to openly judge calls and not give the impression that it is complete vertical integration

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sssmush View Post
    I think they should just call the game by the rules. If there is some ambiguity in what kind of contact constitutes a foul, etc, then they should first of all try to clarify that more in the rules then go from there and call the games by the rules as they are stated.

    One thing that's weird to me is the way the announcers kind of go hand in hand with the referees / league in the way the game is being called, and this carries over to the overall presentation of the "NBA TV" show in general.

    For instance, if a foul call is really marginal or just clearly wrong, many times the announcers will just not say anything. You'll hear a noticeable pause or gap in the commentary and then they just switch the subject. Likewise, if a call is really bad, or more accurately if it isn't congruous with the way the game is being called for the other team, there will almost never be a video replay.

    What I mean by this is, let's say if Harden goes to the line three possessions in a row and it is just like some drawn body contact as he goes up toward the basket or a player jumping upward in front of him etc. If then right after that Steph Curry takes it hard to the hoop in traffic and there is pretty obviously unavoidable body contact and he slides out of bounds but there is no foul call, you will never see close-up replay of that. Likewise if Curry or Ben Simmons is getting pounded on by defenders, but then Harden or somebody just gets an automatic whistle seemingly based on having gotten around their man and missed a shot, you will mostly not see a close up replay of that. Or if it's a really crucial play you will just see a strange angle on the replay, say a camera view up from the floor as Harden makes his layup, that doesn't just plainly show he wasn't really contacted on the play but the ref was on the other side of the defender and just called the foul kind of automatically

    But the ambiguity is a real thing. Like you will see "reach in" type fouls very frequently which seem very marginal, mostly like the player just lost the dribble, but then sometimes on a replay when there was no call you can see that the defenders hand hit the offensive players arm when they are holding the ball to pass or while rebounding and the announcers will say "that looked like a clean steal" or "that looked like a clean block"

    So aside from the announcers kind of smoothing out the sailing ship continually to try and gloss up the refereeing as much as possible, there are also seemingly contradictory interpretations you'll see in the same game: one touch on the arm is a "clear foul", while another is a "clean block."

    And again most of these really marginal calls aren't commented on or shown on replay unless they are crucial to the narrative of the game

    I *kind of* agree with Ewing's statement above about not intervening in the game, however it is clear that teams like this Boston team try to capitalize on that by storming out with a lot of effort and using a lot of rough tactics. Then if you just don't call any fouls either way it is just like an intervention in favor of Boston.

    So I might just rephrase that slightly and say that the refs shouldn't make super marginal calls. For instance, if we the viewers have to watch the call on replay ten times during a timeout, and the radio people are arguing about it the next day, and Vince Pazienza head of NBA refereeing has to come out and explain the physics equations of bodily momentum and motive and intention to the announcers after the commercial break, then bottom line the call was super super marginal and it shouldn't have been called. There is PLENTY of contact every game for the refs to call a few fouls. So the shouldn't make calls that are super marginal. If the call is a coinflip and has to be analyzed in slow-motion for a week to decide was it a foul, then it shouldn't be called a foul. And so when you give Harden these kind of fouls when lesser name brand players are obviously getting hammered and no foul calls then clearly there is something off. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I will say that the one flaw in NBA basketball is the control of the refs running around -- it's why basketball can never be as precise and decisive as tennis or as in-your-face all the marbles definite and final as say boxing or UFC, so that is why the refereeing process should really be transparent. At a minimum the announcers should be willing to openly judge calls and not give the impression that it is complete vertical integration
    The rules do need to be clarified. The way the rules are written moving screens are legal. There are a bunch of poorly defined rules.

    The national announcers are employed by the NBA so it's not too surprising they mostly agree with the refs. The local team announcers are the worst (not all of them), they talk like every call against their team was a bad call and that every play on the other end is a foul. I think that more than any thing else is why fans are so bad at recognizing what is and what is not a foul.

    Riley's Knicks were the first team I saw that straight up fouled 4 or 5 times a possession and were just daring officials to call them all which of course didn't happen. It got so bad the league changed the hand checking rules. I hope the top goal is for officials to call a game the same both ways.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

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