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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    How convenient.
    This happened with Kap and luck. He added SOS which is MORE than fine. But it happened when Luck passed Kap, not before. Same thing here I suspect.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Yeah but... People need to be aware of what his tricks are. He's not doing anything to me. It doesn't even really bother me anymore. I'm just worried people fall for this shtick still.

    He adds ol PFF ranks to his stuff or whatever else whenever it suits him. Then he hides behind the math.

    He didn't last year when Dak was the big beneficiary of it...

    Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe I'm breaking any rules pointing out what's going on here.
    Like I said, just ignore it. Half of the posts in here are from people who aren't adding anything to the discussion. Just don't post in the threads, and they will die and others will take it's place on the forum listing.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    How is it possible to make these two arguments in the same comment, apparently without irony? You think Wentz's numbers are inflated because he has the greatest offensive line in the game and then criticize "the sports media" for thinking Prescott's numbers are inflated because he has has the greatest offensive line in the game.

    There's probably some bias going on as you say you've been following Dak since his college days.


    How is it a shocker? Wentz has demonstrated his athleticism and running ability in college. Among all QBs at the 2016 Combine, he had the 2nd best 40 yard dash, 2nd best broad jump, 3rd best 3-cone drill, and 4th best pSPARQ. So is this a shocker like Jordy Nelson's speed is deceptive?

    Moreover, doesn't scrambling only happen when the OL protection breaks down? So what's the point of bringing up PFF's OL rankings like you did above? Maybe you also have to consider the opposing DL's rating, which the Redskins, Chiefs, Giants, Chargers, Cardinals and Panthers rank highly in. Although I get the feeling you would think Ryan Kerrigan and Joey Bosa are overrated.


    Or maybe Wilson's passing stats are great because he plays in the easiest division in football, i.e. the same thing you knock Luck for? The NFC West combined for 23 wins last year compared to the AFC South's 29, a combined point differential of -223 vs -109, a combined SRS of -18.6 vs -4.6.

    You note that the Seahawks failed to make the playoffs in 2011 without Wilson but with Lynch and the LOB, but don't mention that they played in the divisional round the year before, the same playoffs that featured the "Beast Quake". The Seahawks have reached the Super Bowl twice having the number 1 defense (in yards) and Lynch rushing for over 1200 yards, and fail to do so the season they have the number 1 defense but with Lynch only rushing for 400 yards. They win the SB when the defense knocks the opposing offense out of the game early, and lose when Wilson is asked to win the game on his final drive. Meanwhile, the Colts are 43-27 in games with Luck since 2012 and 8-9 without him, or 10-23 when adding 2011 as you're wont to do with the Seahawks. That looks to me as if you've been doing a whole lot of cherry picking to reach your conclusions.

    "Defensive players have little to do with a QB's passing stats" is wrong as well. For one, if the team is playing with the lead it is a whole lot easier to call passing plays, because it's much less obvious for the opposing defense to know whether to expect run or pass, unlike when an offense is down in points, especially late in the game. That allows for plenty of play action, i.e. the statistically most effective passing play in football. Secondly, a defense that consistently gives their QB a short field obviously makes it easier for him to lead scoring drives. The Seahawks had the 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 9th, and 10th best average starting field position in the years 2012-16.

    Finally, why would you even compare Wentz to Luck and Prescott to Wilson? What could be the reason for that? Because it seems to me like last season, Prescott was the one with overwhelming success on offense. He threw for 23 TDs compared to Wentz's 16, whereas in 2012-2014 Luck threw for 86 TDs compared to Wilson's 72. The Cowboys offense finished 5th in yards in 2016, compared to the Eagles 22nd, whereas the Colts finished 6th in passing yards in the years 2012-14 combined, and the Seahawks 28th. If Wentz finds success in the playoffs this year on the strength of his defense, his scrambling ability, and his ability to make critical plays, I'm really looking forward to you telling us how much he is not like Russell Wilson, and how you have to adjust your projections to accommodate for that.
    Hard to argue with that ^^

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasTomasz View Post
    Like I said, just ignore it. Half of the posts in here are from people who aren't adding anything to the discussion. Just don't post in the threads, and they will die and others will take it's place on the forum listing.
    I legit tried this and the thread lived for ages. Just being honest, I tried. People got suckered in with his math not realizing what was really happening. I'm fine with the thread existing. But I think we can acknowledge something else is going on as well.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    How is it possible to make these two arguments in the same comment, apparently without irony? You think Wentz's numbers are inflated because he has the greatest offensive line in the game and then criticize "the sports media" for thinking Prescott's numbers are inflated because he has has the greatest offensive line in the game.
    It's actually pretty amazing... and creative how you managed to fumble my point. Let me be less wordy: the media seems to claim Dak is just a product of all-time pass protection. This year seems to prove otherwise. Pass protection ironically seems to be much more of a catalyst in Wentz' performance. The numbers show this. Makes sense?
    There's probably some bias going on as you say you've been following Dak since his college days.
    An accusation of bias coming from a user named "QB Eagles" in defense of Carson Wentz. And you want to bring up irony. smh

    How is it a shocker? Wentz has demonstrated his athleticism and running ability in college. Among all QBs at the 2016 Combine, he had the 2nd best 40 yard dash, 2nd best broad jump, 3rd best 3-cone drill, and 4th best pSPARQ. So is this a shocker like Jordy Nelson's speed is deceptive?
    It's a shocker because we're not even midway through the season and Wentz has as many rush attempts already as he did all of last year.

    Moreover, doesn't scrambling only happen when the OL protection breaks down? So what's the point of bringing up PFF's OL rankings like you did above? Maybe you also have to consider the opposing DL's rating, which the Redskins, Chiefs, Giants, Chargers, Cardinals and Panthers rank highly in. Although I get the feeling you would think Ryan Kerrigan and Joey Bosa are overrated.
    No, scrambling happens when the play breaks down. It's not always a matter of pass protection.

    Or maybe Wilson's passing stats are great because he plays in the easiest division in football, i.e. the same thing you knock Luck for? The NFC West combined for 23 wins last year compared to the AFC South's 29, a combined point differential of -223 vs -109, a combined SRS of -18.6 vs -4.6.
    Compare the NFC WEST 2012 - current to the AFC SOUTH 2012 - current, and tell me if Luck didn't have an easier path to the playoffs. I can save you some work if you like. He did.
    You note that the Seahawks failed to make the playoffs in 2011 without Wilson but with Lynch and the LOB, but don't mention that they played in the divisional round the year before, the same playoffs that featured the "Beast Quake". The Seahawks have reached the Super Bowl twice having the number 1 defense (in yards) and Lynch rushing for over 1200 yards, and fail to do so the season they have the number 1 defense but with Lynch only rushing for 400 yards. They win the SB when the defense knocks the opposing offense out of the game early, and lose when Wilson is asked to win the game on his final drive. Meanwhile, the Colts are 43-27 in games with Luck since 2012 and 8-9 without him, or 10-23 when adding 2011 as you're wont to do with the Seahawks. That looks to me as if you've been doing a whole lot of cherry picking to reach your conclusions.
    The Seahawks went 7-9 in 2010, followed it up with a 7-9 record in 2011. Name a year under Russell Wilson where the Seahawks didn't record double digits wins in a season?

    I don't understand why you want to shift the discussion. You're saying "the Seahawks wouldn't go to the super bowl with the top defense and Lynch". Ok, that's a different argument. I'm saying Wilson performs at an elite level with or without Lynch.
    "Defensive players have little to do with a QB's passing stats" is wrong as well. For one, if the team is playing with the lead it is a whole lot easier to call passing plays, because it's much less obvious for the opposing defense to know whether to expect run or pass, unlike when an offense is down in points, especially late in the game. That allows for plenty of play action, i.e. the statistically most effective passing play in football. Secondly, a defense that consistently gives their QB a short field obviously makes it easier for him to lead scoring drives. The Seahawks had the 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 9th, and 10th best average starting field position in the years 2012-16.
    Great, except there's no evidence of this theory statistically. One reason is that a defense is not going to help the accuracy on a QB's throws. Wilson is deadly accurate especially on the run. He's been that way since I watched him at Wisconsin.

    Sure, the Broncos defense helps the team win -- no ones refuting that. The Broncos defense helped carry Peyton Manning all the way to his 2nd super bowl -- Manning was the worst QB in the league. But are the Broncos as an historically great defense, helping turn Trevor Siemian into an elite passer. He's nowhere near the caliber of player Russell Wilson is, neither was or is Brock Osweiler.

    I would argue that being in a pass-oriented system like the Patriots/Saints or playing in an offense that gives a good OC like Kyle Shananhan creative control is a "much" greater benefit to a QB's performance than a great defense. What I think you're conflating is that a great defense is better for the team as a whole record-wise. My point is that the offensive schemes and the sideline play calling has much more of an impact on the QB's performance than team defense.

    Luck and Wentz both have had better schemes and franchises willing to build teams around them than either Dak or Russell. I think although it may not be advantageous from a team perspective, Wentz/Luck have the advantage individually and more freedom to make plays within their offense.
    Finally, why would you even compare Wentz to Luck and Prescott to Wilson? What could be the reason for that? Because it seems to me like last season, Prescott was the one with overwhelming success on offense. He threw for 23 TDs compared to Wentz's 16, whereas in 2012-2014 Luck threw for 86 TDs compared to Wilson's 72. The Cowboys offense finished 5th in yards in 2016, compared to the Eagles 22nd, whereas the Colts finished 6th in passing yards in the years 2012-14 combined, and the Seahawks 28th. If Wentz finds success in the playoffs this year on the strength of his defense, his scrambling ability, and his ability to make critical plays, I'm really looking forward to you telling us how much he is not like Russell Wilson, and how you have to adjust your projections to accommodate for that.
    I listen to plenty of sports conversations. In most of them I'm not hearing that Wentz is better than Prescott. He is not, for many of the reasons I've specified. I remember, as I said, making the same arguments about Wilson over Luck.

  6. #36
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    At this point in time I think it's very hard to argue that Dak is better than Wentz.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Luck and Wentz both have had better schemes and franchises willing to build teams around them than either Dak or Russell. I think although it may not be advantageous from a team perspective, Wentz/Luck have the advantage individually and more freedom to make plays within their offense.
    Can you please explain that when last season and even coming into this season the Cowboys had a top oline and arguably the best RB/running game in the NFL with a still top 20ish WR isn't helping Dak out?

    You're being quite a hypocrite here.

    And Luck has 0 help on offense, since when did that franchise help him? The WR are ok but the running game and oline is garbage.

    Dak and Wilson have had tremendous running games their careers so far outside the last two for Wilson.

    You'll be hardpressed to win an argument that Wentz and Luck have had their teams build better offenses around them than at least Dak. Wilson is arguable but for the majority of his offense was built on a good line and running game too.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by qb_eagles View Post
    how is it possible to make these two arguments in the same comment, apparently without irony? You think wentz's numbers are inflated because he has the greatest offensive line in the game and then criticize "the sports media" for thinking prescott's numbers are inflated because he has has the greatest offensive line in the game.

    There's probably some bias going on as you say you've been following dak since his college days.


    How is it a shocker? Wentz has demonstrated his athleticism and running ability in college. Among all qbs at the 2016 combine, he had the 2nd best 40 yard dash, 2nd best broad jump, 3rd best 3-cone drill, and 4th best psparq. So is this a shocker like jordy nelson's speed is deceptive?

    Moreover, doesn't scrambling only happen when the ol protection breaks down? So what's the point of bringing up pff's ol rankings like you did above? Maybe you also have to consider the opposing dl's rating, which the redskins, chiefs, giants, chargers, cardinals and panthers rank highly in. Although i get the feeling you would think ryan kerrigan and joey bosa are overrated.


    Or maybe wilson's passing stats are great because he plays in the easiest division in football, i.e. The same thing you knock luck for? The nfc west combined for 23 wins last year compared to the afc south's 29, a combined point differential of -223 vs -109, a combined srs of -18.6 vs -4.6.

    You note that the seahawks failed to make the playoffs in 2011 without wilson but with lynch and the lob, but don't mention that they played in the divisional round the year before, the same playoffs that featured the "beast quake". The seahawks have reached the super bowl twice having the number 1 defense (in yards) and lynch rushing for over 1200 yards, and fail to do so the season they have the number 1 defense but with lynch only rushing for 400 yards. They win the sb when the defense knocks the opposing offense out of the game early, and lose when wilson is asked to win the game on his final drive. Meanwhile, the colts are 43-27 in games with luck since 2012 and 8-9 without him, or 10-23 when adding 2011 as you're wont to do with the seahawks. That looks to me as if you've been doing a whole lot of cherry picking to reach your conclusions.

    "defensive players have little to do with a qb's passing stats" is wrong as well. For one, if the team is playing with the lead it is a whole lot easier to call passing plays, because it's much less obvious for the opposing defense to know whether to expect run or pass, unlike when an offense is down in points, especially late in the game. That allows for plenty of play action, i.e. The statistically most effective passing play in football. Secondly, a defense that consistently gives their qb a short field obviously makes it easier for him to lead scoring drives. The seahawks had the 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 9th, and 10th best average starting field position in the years 2012-16.

    Finally, why would you even compare wentz to luck and prescott to wilson? What could be the reason for that? Because it seems to me like last season, prescott was the one with overwhelming success on offense. He threw for 23 tds compared to wentz's 16, whereas in 2012-2014 luck threw for 86 tds compared to wilson's 72. The cowboys offense finished 5th in yards in 2016, compared to the eagles 22nd, whereas the colts finished 6th in passing yards in the years 2012-14 combined, and the seahawks 28th. If wentz finds success in the playoffs this year on the strength of his defense, his scrambling ability, and his ability to make critical plays, i'm really looking forward to you telling us how much he is not like russell wilson, and how you have to adjust your projections to accommodate for that.
    g.o.a.t.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    An accusation of bias coming from a user named "QB Eagles" in defense of Carson Wentz. And you want to bring up irony. smh
    Indeed, I wear my bias on my sleeve.

    I'm also not pretending I'm an objective evaluator of QBs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    It's a shocker because we're not even midway through the season and Wentz has as many rush attempts already as he did all of last year.
    If you actually watched football you would have noticed Wentz scrambling a lot more by the end of last season. It was also reported that the coaches wanted to harness this ability for most of his rookie season so he doesn't develop bad habits. It's almost like stats don't tell the whole story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    No, scrambling happens when the play breaks down. It's not always a matter of pass protection.
    And why do plays break down? Nothing to do with the OL, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Compare the NFC WEST 2012 - current to the AFC SOUTH 2012 - current, and tell me if Luck didn't have an easier path to the playoffs. I can save you some work if you like. He did.
    Your argument was that Wilson started to have elite passing stats in Lynch's absence, so the years 2012-2014 are irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    The Seahawks went 7-9 in 2010, followed it up with a 7-9 record in 2011. Name a year under Russell Wilson where the Seahawks didn't record double digits wins in a season?
    Name a year under Wilson where the Seahawks defense wasn't at least 3rd best in points and 5th best in yards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I don't understand why you want to shift the discussion. You're saying "the Seahawks wouldn't go to the super bowl with the top defense and Lynch". Ok, that's a different argument. I'm saying Wilson performs at an elite level with or without Lynch.
    The point is that his "elite level of play" only shows up on the stat sheet, not in terms of team success. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You talk about Wilson's win-loss-record when he didn't have elite stats, but talk about his elite stats when the team isn't as successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Great, except there's no evidence of this theory statistically. One reason is that a defense is not going to help the accuracy on a QB's throws. Wilson is deadly accurate especially on the run. He's been that way since I watched him at Wisconsin.
    There is statistical evidence. As I said, the play action pass is the statistically most successful passing play in football. It greatly increases the accuracy of whoever QB is throwing it, too. Similarly, a team's tendency to call pass plays increases when down in points and decreases when in the lead, both especially late in games. You simply choose to ignore that evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Sure, the Broncos defense helps the team win -- no ones refuting that. The Broncos defense helped carry Peyton Manning all the way to his 2nd super bowl -- Manning was the worst QB in the league. But are the Broncos as an historically great defense, helping turn Trevor Siemian into an elite passer. He's nowhere near the caliber of player Russell Wilson is, neither was or is Brock Osweiler.
    Trevor Siemian has elite stats when he's playing with the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I would argue that being in a pass-oriented system like the Patriots/Saints or playing in an offense that gives a good OC like Kyle Shananhan creative control is a "much" greater benefit to a QB's performance than a great defense. What I think you're conflating is that a great defense is better for the team as a whole record-wise. My point is that the offensive schemes and the sideline play calling has much more of an impact on the QB's performance than team defense.
    That's irrelevant though, because you obviously don't factor offensive scheme and play calling into your evaluation of Wilson. Else you wouldn't denigrate Lynch's influence on the Seahawks offense all the time, or twist Wilson's run option plays into his favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Luck and Wentz both have had better schemes and franchises willing to build teams around them than either Dak or Russell. I think although it may not be advantageous from a team perspective, Wentz/Luck have the advantage individually and more freedom to make plays within their offense.
    How exactly have the Cowboys not built a team around Prescott, when he has the 2016 Coach of the Year, three 2016 All-Pros on the OL, a 2016 All-Pro RB, a 2014 All-Pro WR and a 2012 All-Pro TE?

    The Seahawks have certainly tried to build a team around Wilson, it's just that pretty much all of the high draft picks they have invested into the offense have failed. Meanwhile his defense is filled with All-Pros.

    The idea that Luck has a great team and coaching staff around him is laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I listen to plenty of sports conversations. In most of them I'm not hearing that Wentz is better than Prescott. He is not, for many of the reasons I've specified.
    So what's your problem then, if you're not hearing Wentz is better than Prescott? He's certainly is better this year in all of the things you praise Wilson for: team record, "elite passing stats", scrambling ability. So that's why you now have to start bringing in OL, scheme and coaching to make the stats fit your biased opinion, while obviously ignoring to update your past evaluations with all those factors. Sad.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 10-26-2017 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #40
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    Luck has a great franchise around him? How can anyone defend that statement?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    It's actually pretty amazing... and creative how you managed to fumble my point. Let me be less wordy: the media seems to claim Dak is just a product of all-time pass protection. This year seems to prove otherwise. Pass protection ironically seems to be much more of a catalyst in Wentz' performance. The numbers show this. Makes sense?


    An accusation of bias coming from a user named "QB Eagles" in defense of Carson Wentz. And you want to bring up irony. smh



    It's a shocker because we're not even midway through the season and Wentz has as many rush attempts already as he did all of last year.



    No, scrambling happens when the play breaks down. It's not always a matter of pass protection.



    Compare the NFC WEST 2012 - current to the AFC SOUTH 2012 - current, and tell me if Luck didn't have an easier path to the playoffs. I can save you some work if you like. He did.


    The Seahawks went 7-9 in 2010, followed it up with a 7-9 record in 2011. Name a year under Russell Wilson where the Seahawks didn't record double digits wins in a season?

    I don't understand why you want to shift the discussion. You're saying "the Seahawks wouldn't go to the super bowl with the top defense and Lynch". Ok, that's a different argument. I'm saying Wilson performs at an elite level with or without Lynch.


    Great, except there's no evidence of this theory statistically. One reason is that a defense is not going to help the accuracy on a QB's throws. Wilson is deadly accurate especially on the run. He's been that way since I watched him at Wisconsin.

    Sure, the Broncos defense helps the team win -- no ones refuting that. The Broncos defense helped carry Peyton Manning all the way to his 2nd super bowl -- Manning was the worst QB in the league. But are the Broncos as an historically great defense, helping turn Trevor Siemian into an elite passer. He's nowhere near the caliber of player Russell Wilson is, neither was or is Brock Osweiler.

    I would argue that being in a pass-oriented system like the Patriots/Saints or playing in an offense that gives a good OC like Kyle Shananhan creative control is a "much" greater benefit to a QB's performance than a great defense. What I think you're conflating is that a great defense is better for the team as a whole record-wise. My point is that the offensive schemes and the sideline play calling has much more of an impact on the QB's performance than team defense.

    Luck and Wentz both have had better schemes and franchises willing to build teams around them than either Dak or Russell. I think although it may not be advantageous from a team perspective, Wentz/Luck have the advantage individually and more freedom to make plays within their offense.


    I listen to plenty of sports conversations. In most of them I'm not hearing that Wentz is better than Prescott. He is not, for many of the reasons I've specified. I remember, as I said, making the same arguments about Wilson over Luck.
    Just give up man. You tried, failed, now move on. This thread is a waste, just a duplicate of many other threads trying to start arguments. I posted twice now and will stop adding to it.

  12. #42
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    Just here to watch the QB_Eagles and lionel20 debate:

    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/884/083.gif

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    Nelson Agholor = building a franchise around Wentz

    The ONLY hashtag that even matters now...
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  14. #44
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    I'm waiting for him to explain how Luck and Wentz have had their franchises cater to them by building an amazing foundation while Prescott and Wilson are out fending for themselves by being blac... I mean elite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I'm waiting for him to explain how Luck and Wentz have had their franchises cater to them by building an amazing foundation while Prescott and Wilson are out fending for themselves by being blac... I mean elite.
    Obviously Chip Kelly gutting the offense was all part of the plan to bring in Wentz.

    Hey, I'm an Eagles fan, so I'm not going to argue the team doesn't have talent on offense or that the coaching staff hasn't done a good job. But you've got to be completely ignoring the accolades the 2016 Cowboys coaches and offensive players have received to even bring up that argument in a comparison between the two QBs.

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