Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 53 of 59 FirstFirst ... 3435152535455 ... LastLast
Results 781 to 795 of 882
  1. #781
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,536
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Wentz excelled despite the loss of peters, sproles, made Nelson Agholor a worthwhile receiver, helped Ertz to a career year, etc. Wentz elevated guys around him. Dak was bad, very bad. One regressed hard while the other progressed. Which trend do you prefer in your QBs?
    I'm going to ignore the fact that you penalize players for getting off to a fast start.

    I'm also going to ignore the obvious contradiction where in your world Wentz makes everyone around him better, and Dak is simply made better by those around him. I don't see how Wentz made Ryan Mathews better -- Mathews went to a pro bowl in San Diego. How do you know that Dak is not making Ezekiel Elliott better?

    Dak over two seasons has excelled in an offense designed around the RB. It's old school classic Cowboys, reminiscent of Dorsett in the 80s, even more so like Emmitt. It was designed around Murray in 2014. Murray's 2014 was just as good as Elliott's 2016. Romo took more risks than Dak, so Romo ends up with more TD passes, also twice the interceptions. When you review the complete numbers, Dak added 21 rushing first downs, 6 rushing TD's, and 282 yards to his passing stats. In his rookie season, he outperformed what the veteran Romo did in 2014 in a run heavy system designed around Murray.

    It's hard for an offense to adjust when it's designed around Emmitt Smith or Ezekiel Elliott, and Smith or Elliott are unavailable. Check how the '93 Cowboy's struggled when they opened the season without Emmitt. The 2017 Cowboy's failed to adjust there offense when Zeke was suspended. Alfred Morris excelled in the read option with RG3. Dak ran the read option often at Miss St. But no, it's still run heavy, play action. When the opponent starts to pull away -- because Morris isn't Elliott -- they want Dak to catch them up in the passing game with WR not used to excelling at running routes to get separation because that was the function of the Dak/Elliott play action. It was terrible.

    But you seem to forget how terrible Carson Wentz was without Lane Johnson. It is shocking how important he, even more so than Peter/Kelce, is to that offense.

    Wentz was off to a fast start similar to Prescott in 2016. Johnson gets injured and then ... Wentz goes 248/405 2378 yds 6 TD's 12 INT's 30 rushes 75 yards 2 rush TD's and 9 fumbles. That's not progression. That's a disaster.

    w/ Lane Johnson:

    Wentz 396/642 4700 yds 43 TD's 9 INT's 80 rushes 374 yards 14 fumbles.

    And with the impact of Lane Johnson, we have a bigger sample size. Unbelievably, it appears that Johnson's impact is Elliott on steroids. Wentz was much worse without Johnson than Dak was minus Zeke. Why are you ignoring this?

  2. #782
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    10,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I'm going to ignore the fact that you penalize players for getting off to a fast start.

    I'm also going to ignore the obvious contradiction where in your world Wentz makes everyone around him better, and Dak is simply made better by those around him. I don't see how Wentz made Ryan Mathews better -- Mathews went to a pro bowl in San Diego. How do you know that Dak is not making Ezekiel Elliott better?

    Dak over two seasons has excelled in an offense designed around the RB. It's old school classic Cowboys, reminiscent of Dorsett in the 80s, even more so like Emmitt. It was designed around Murray in 2014. Murray's 2014 was just as good as Elliott's 2016. Romo took more risks than Dak, so Romo ends up with more TD passes, also twice the interceptions. When you review the complete numbers, Dak added 21 rushing first downs, 6 rushing TD's, and 282 yards to his passing stats. In his rookie season, he outperformed what the veteran Romo did in 2014 in a run heavy system designed around Murray.

    It's hard for an offense to adjust when it's designed around Emmitt Smith or Ezekiel Elliott, and Smith or Elliott are unavailable. Check how the '93 Cowboy's struggled when they opened the season without Emmitt. The 2017 Cowboy's failed to adjust there offense when Zeke was suspended. Alfred Morris excelled in the read option with RG3. Dak ran the read option often at Miss St. But no, it's still run heavy, play action. When the opponent starts to pull away -- because Morris isn't Elliott -- they want Dak to catch them up in the passing game with WR not used to excelling at running routes to get separation because that was the function of the Dak/Elliott play action. It was terrible.

    But you seem to forget how terrible Carson Wentz was without Lane Johnson. It is shocking how important he, even more so than Peter/Kelce, is to that offense.

    Wentz was off to a fast start similar to Prescott in 2016. Johnson gets injured and then ... Wentz goes 248/405 2378 yds 6 TD's 12 INT's 30 rushes 75 yards 2 rush TD's and 9 fumbles. That's not progression. That's a disaster.

    w/ Lane Johnson:

    Wentz 396/642 4700 yds 43 TD's 9 INT's 80 rushes 374 yards 14 fumbles.

    And with the impact of Lane Johnson, we have a bigger sample size. Unbelievably, it appears that Johnson's impact is Elliott on steroids. Wentz was much worse without Johnson than Dak was minus Zeke. Why are you ignoring this?

    Dallas lost the first 2 games of a season without Emmit then won the SB after he returned becoming the first team to ever do that. Plus you don't see a * next to Soon Aikmans name in the HOF claiming he had help. So I agree with you regarding all of that but if Wentz is going to look like this every year it's gonna be hard to make a case that Dak is better. Especially in a run first offense like you mentioned.

  3. #783
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    [emoji288]
    Posts
    9,854
    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    The same Dez Bryant that was bouncing balls off his facemask, hands and head leading to INTs. Dez also led the NFL in dropped passes and gets zero separation. Other than that Dez is F'n elite
    I was clear in my comment that I was talking about air yards. Lionel can only think in stats because he doesn't watch the sport. Dez leads all WR on Dallas in air yards by far. Obviously that only factors in caught balls. As I said though, that stat compares to the NFL elite in Julio Jones, AJ Green and Antonio Brown.

    Brice Butler isn't even listed on NFL Next Gen Stats because he had only 15 receptions this season despite playing in 13 games (261 snaps). Those included some big plays, but the idea that he is better than Dez Bryant is ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    But you seem to forget how terrible Carson Wentz was without Lane Johnson. It is shocking how important he, even more so than Peter/Kelce, is to that offense.
    There is only one reason why Johnson's absence in 2016 hurt Wentz more statistically than Peters' absence in 2017: Wentz was a vastly superior QB in 2017 than in 2016.

    Lane Johnson missed one start in 2017, too, due to injury. Wentz's stats in that game: 222 yards, 3 TD, 0 Int.

    Judging players by box score is dumb.

  4. #784
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    10,352
    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I was clear in my comment that I was talking about air yards. Lionel can only think in stats because he doesn't watch the sport. Dez leads all WR on Dallas in air yards by far. Obviously that only factors in caught balls. As I said though, that stat compares to the NFL elite in Julio Jones, AJ Green and Antonio Brown.

    Brice Butler isn't even listed on NFL Next Gen Stats because he had only 15 receptions this season despite playing in 13 games (261 snaps). Those included some big plays, but the idea that he is better than Dez Bryant is ludicrous.


    There is only one reason why Johnson's absence in 2016 hurt Wentz more statistically than Peters' absence in 2017: Wentz was a vastly superior QB in 2017 than in 2016.

    Lane Johnson missed one start in 2017, too, due to injury. Wentz's stats in that game: 222 yards, 3 TD, 0 Int.

    Judging players by box score is dumb.
    I didn't say he was better then Dez I said he didn't have any issues catching the long ball from Dak. Iv questioned all year why him and James Hannah were not thrown to more . It's mind boggling to say the very least.

  5. #785
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    68,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I'm going to ignore the fact that you penalize players for getting off to a fast start.

    I'm also going to ignore the obvious contradiction where in your world Wentz makes everyone around him better, and Dak is simply made better by those around him. I don't see how Wentz made Ryan Mathews better -- Mathews went to a pro bowl in San Diego. How do you know that Dak is not making Ezekiel Elliott better?

    Dak over two seasons has excelled in an offense designed around the RB. It's old school classic Cowboys, reminiscent of Dorsett in the 80s, even more so like Emmitt. It was designed around Murray in 2014. Murray's 2014 was just as good as Elliott's 2016. Romo took more risks than Dak, so Romo ends up with more TD passes, also twice the interceptions. When you review the complete numbers, Dak added 21 rushing first downs, 6 rushing TD's, and 282 yards to his passing stats. In his rookie season, he outperformed what the veteran Romo did in 2014 in a run heavy system designed around Murray.

    It's hard for an offense to adjust when it's designed around Emmitt Smith or Ezekiel Elliott, and Smith or Elliott are unavailable. Check how the '93 Cowboy's struggled when they opened the season without Emmitt. The 2017 Cowboy's failed to adjust there offense when Zeke was suspended. Alfred Morris excelled in the read option with RG3. Dak ran the read option often at Miss St. But no, it's still run heavy, play action. When the opponent starts to pull away -- because Morris isn't Elliott -- they want Dak to catch them up in the passing game with WR not used to excelling at running routes to get separation because that was the function of the Dak/Elliott play action. It was terrible.

    But you seem to forget how terrible Carson Wentz was without Lane Johnson. It is shocking how important he, even more so than Peter/Kelce, is to that offense.

    Wentz was off to a fast start similar to Prescott in 2016. Johnson gets injured and then ... Wentz goes 248/405 2378 yds 6 TD's 12 INT's 30 rushes 75 yards 2 rush TD's and 9 fumbles. That's not progression. That's a disaster.

    w/ Lane Johnson:

    Wentz 396/642 4700 yds 43 TD's 9 INT's 80 rushes 374 yards 14 fumbles.

    And with the impact of Lane Johnson, we have a bigger sample size. Unbelievably, it appears that Johnson's impact is Elliott on steroids. Wentz was much worse without Johnson than Dak was minus Zeke. Why are you ignoring this?
    Stopped reading when you compared a broken down end of career Mathews to Zeke. You’re a special one.

    Try watching a game.

  6. #786
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,536
    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I was clear in my comment that I was talking about air yards. Lionel can only think in stats because he doesn't watch the sport. Dez leads all WR on Dallas in air yards by far. Obviously that only factors in caught balls. As I said though, that stat compares to the NFL elite in Julio Jones, AJ Green and Antonio Brown.

    Brice Butler isn't even listed on NFL Next Gen Stats because he had only 15 receptions this season despite playing in 13 games (261 snaps). Those included some big plays, but the idea that he is better than Dez Bryant is ludicrous.


    There is only one reason why Johnson's absence in 2016 hurt Wentz more statistically than Peters' absence in 2017: Wentz was a vastly superior QB in 2017 than in 2016.

    Lane Johnson missed one start in 2017, too, due to injury. Wentz's stats in that game: 222 yards, 3 TD, 0 Int.

    Judging players by box score is dumb.
    No, go look at Wentz’s first 4 games last year. He was on pace for 2017 numbers. Then Lane goes out and he showed significant decline.

    I can give you “one” game where Dak numbers were extraordinary without Elliott. I think the box was 332 yds, 3 TDs, 0 picks, no fumbles, 42 rush yards. The box was something like that. So if one good game without Lane Johnson negates all the sub par ones, then why don’t you make that same argument from Dak. He played arguably his best game of the year without Elliott.

    Box scores tell a story. Wentz was the exact same player in early 2016 as he was this season, the primary difference is that Lane Johnson was out there in 2017. How’s this any different than 2016 v 2017 for Dak? He had Elliott in 2016, he struggled without him in 2017. Just go follow the trial of the box stats, they’ll help you to put in proper context what you’re watching. Otherwise you’ll attempt revisionist history due to your preference in the argument.

  7. #787
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    10,352
    My only question with Dak will be is he good enough to lead this particular team to a SB. Nothing else really matters.

  8. #788
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,536
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Stopped reading when you compared a broken down end of career Mathews to Zeke. You’re a special one.

    Try watching a game.
    Is Dez a “broken down end of career”? Some would say. So Dak is suppose to make that miracle happen but Wentz gets an excuse for not making Mathews better.

  9. #789
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    68,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Is Dez a “broken down end of career”? Some would say. So Dak is suppose to make that miracle happen but Wentz gets an excuse for not making Mathews better.
    Holy heck you amaze me. This is gold, sheer comedy.

  10. #790
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    68,421
    Comparing a consensus top 5 WR (who Dallas fans argued was elite and top 3) to start the seasons impact over Ryan Mathews.

    Ignore who else Wentz had in 2016. Matthews, not the same guy in Buffalo, Ertz recovering, DGB out of the league, Agholor was consensus bust by everyone onnpsd outside of me, Paul turner mr practice squad.

  11. #791
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,213
    Wait, we're still doing this Wentz vs. Dak thing?

    "If you a dawg, be a dawg!"

  12. #792
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    [emoji288]
    Posts
    9,854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    So if one good game without Lane Johnson negates all the sub par ones, then why don’t you make that same argument from Dak.
    I don't make that argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Box scores tell a story. Wentz was the exact same player in early 2016 as he was this season, the primary difference is that Lane Johnson was out there in 2017.
    Absolute insanity.

  13. #793
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bethlehem
    Posts
    36,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Young$avage View Post
    Wait, we're still doing this Wentz vs. Dak thing?
    Lionel is still posting.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  14. #794
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    [emoji288]
    Posts
    9,854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I can give you “one” game where Dak numbers were extraordinary without Elliott. I think the box was 332 yds, 3 TDs, 0 picks, no fumbles, 42 rush yards. The box was something like that.
    More evidence that you don't watch the games.

    Was Dak extraordinary or was Rod Smith? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InkaEtdgJQ4

    Smith took one 6-yard reception at the Cowboys 25 yard line and turned it into an 81-yard receiving TD. One third of Dak's passing stats came from short passes to Smith alone. In total, the game book lists 4 deep pass targets for Dak, resulting in 2 receptions for 36 yards, one for the TEs Witten and Hannah each. (*)

    I.e. the exact same thing you criticized earlier when Brees does it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Most notable high volume passers, operate in an offensive system — some kind of WCO variation — reliant on a high percentage of low difficulty throws... Brees, Brady, Stafford, etc. They end the regular seasons with padded passing stats due to the offensive “system” developed by coordinators and play callers. Prescott is certainly not system in this regard.
    [*] Compare that with Wentz's highest yardage game in 2017 (without Jason Peters): 13 total deep targets with 5 catches for 153 yards. Further proof that you choose not to use all the information available to you, but only what you like.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 01-06-2018 at 03:27 PM.

  15. #795
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,913

    Here We go Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Comparing a consensus top 5 WR (who Dallas fans argued was elite and top 3) to start the seasons impact over Ryan Mathews.

    Ignore who else Wentz had in 2016. Matthews, not the same guy in Buffalo, Ertz recovering, DGB out of the league, Agholor was consensus bust by everyone onnpsd outside of me, Paul turner mr practice squad.
    Isn’t Dez the same WR that most people (even a lot of Cowboys fans) were saying that he’s mediocre at best now? You’re probably talking about 1 or 2 guys on this board that we’re saying Dez was top 5 and still elite. Dez hasn’t been elite in 3 years, pretty much since he signed that big contract.
    Last edited by Mr.B; 01-06-2018 at 03:10 PM.

Page 53 of 59 FirstFirst ... 3435152535455 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •