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  1. #391
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    The window for winning it all is never as big as teams think. Most would agree that the Yankees are entering that crucial time frame right now and after being on the precipice of greatness this yr, the expectations will be very high for the next couple of yrs. WIth that in mind, why in the world would the Yankees get rid of such a crucial piece of the puzzle in Girardi, without having a freakin plan of what they were going to do next???

    Now, Cashman said that he's willing to take candidates with NO managerial experience. I hope Im wrong but this looks like a huge unforced error. Tough not to think this has something to do with Cashmans ego thinking that any coach can win with the players he gets and I think he's making a big mistake.

    This decision has a chance to go down as a scar on Cashmans resume if these players don't come very close to winning a chip and performing well consistently.
    Last edited by Bivory; 11-09-2017 at 11:55 PM.


    Estrada 2nd base
    Torres SS
    Judge RF
    Sanchez C
    Bird 1st base
    Frazier LF
    Andujar 3rd base
    Fowler CF

    Bench: Wade and Austin

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    Adams fastball is flat like Tanaka's which screams trouble in Yankee Stadium. Along with him being not good against LHBs. The low ground ball rate is also concerning. I'm just not high on Adams and I'd rather use his value in a trade like this. I do like Frazier but I think this is the type of trade where it makes sense to trade him. Yelich is a star in the making. He also fits team needs better being a lefty and playing in CF. I also think they could use his contact ability a lot more than Frazier who I think is going to be another high K player.
    You do realize.. everyone's 4 seam fastball is flat right? It's the nature of the pitch.

    It's only the 2 seamer, cut fastball or Split-Finger fastballs that have movement.. the 4-seamer is just pure velocity.
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I agree. It's too much. I would definitely be willing to include Frazier but Adams/Acevedo would be too much to throw on.

    Frazier I really like as a prospect. He seems like a good hitter in the making. But their use of him makes me think he can't play CF, just the corners. He has 6 years of dirt cheap control. He's a righty hitter which we're kind of heavy on now and in the projected future.

    Yelich is a proven commodity as we've discussed. He can play CF. And he has 5 years of extremely reasonably priced bargain level control. He's a lefty hitter.

    So looking at the two situations, I'd be willing to include Frazier for the proven production over a prospect, the comparable control, better lineup flexibility. BUT I like Frazier enough that I don't include too much more. Adams/Acevedo would be too much.
    Don't use how they used him in the Bronx as any indication... they had Ells, Hicks and Gardner... all CF'ers themselves except with a track record at the MLB level... He's behind a pretty deep field in NY. Even at SWB, He's had Mason Williams in his way too... No, I would not look to far into that really. Its really more of a cop-out and real evidence.
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I agree. It's too much. I would definitely be willing to include Frazier but Adams/Acevedo would be too much to throw on.

    Frazier I really like as a prospect. He seems like a good hitter in the making. But their use of him makes me think he can't play CF, just the corners. He has 6 years of dirt cheap control. He's a righty hitter which we're kind of heavy on now and in the projected future.

    Yelich is a proven commodity as we've discussed. He can play CF. And he has 5 years of extremely reasonably priced bargain level control. He's a lefty hitter.

    So looking at the two situations, I'd be willing to include Frazier for the proven production over a prospect, the comparable control, better lineup flexibility. BUT I like Frazier enough that I don't include too much more. Adams/Acevedo would be too much.

    Yelich is really good. As you said, he is above average in every aspect of the game at his position.

    I think if you are the FO, you have to be spot on with your bets and how you hedge them. I am basing this trade more off the projection of Florial who is considered a legit 5 tool player. If you think Florial is the real deal and will be ready for 2020? Then no way do you even think of this deal.
    If you think Florial is a risk or 4 years away, you have to consider making a move for him. I would guess that means you are also out of the Harper sweepstakes.

    I think Frazier can play CF but they have Jake and Gardner.
    I also wonder if a team looks forward and instead of creating static when Florial gets the call by moving Frazier out of CF to LF, just play him in left.




    You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear.

  5. #395
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    Would anyone consider trading for Stanton if Ellsbury were in the deal? We could also trade Adams and others (Acevedo, etc.)? If the Marlins would take Ellsbury, how much of a package would it take to get him, given their need to trade him and the Giants or Cardinals interest? Cardinals are possibly offering 2 minor league pitchers to headline their package, but Stanton might not want to play in middle America.

    Long-term, I'd prefer Harper who is left handed, but he's not guaranteed to be there. Wonder if Harper can play CF. LOL. Willie, Mickey and the Duke in the same outfield.

  6. #396
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    Rumor Mill had a trade of Jason Heyward for Jeff Samarjia and Mark Melancon. Giants need OF help and want to get rid of their own bad contracts. I think I'd trade Ellsbury for either one of them, especially Samarjia. It wouldn't even effect my signing of Otani, as I would find enough starts for everyone over the course of the season, with lots of extra rest for Tanaka and Otani, etc., Almost noone's making 30 starts anymore over a 162 game season.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    Yelich is really good. As you said, he is above average in every aspect of the game at his position.

    I think if you are the FO, you have to be spot on with your bets and how you hedge them. I am basing this trade more off the projection of Florial who is considered a legit 5 tool player. If you think Florial is the real deal and will be ready for 2020? Then no way do you even think of this deal.
    If you think Florial is a risk or 4 years away, you have to consider making a move for him. I would guess that means you are also out of the Harper sweepstakes.

    I think Frazier can play CF but they have Jake and Gardner.
    I also wonder if a team looks forward and instead of creating static when Florial gets the call by moving Frazier out of CF to LF, just play him in left.
    I don't think moving Frazier for Yelich would block signing Harper or Florial, TBH.

    For 2018 you have an awesome 4 man rotation of Judge/Yelich/Gardner/Hicks. With all of them being so good this would mean you'd want more DH at bats allocated to them than if it's Frazier instead of Yelich though. Judge and Yelich are guys you want starting 140 games each. Gardner/Hicks at least 125-130. That's a total of 530-540 starts. So you'd use up all 486 of your OF starts between the 3 spots (162 * 3) and then 44-54 of your 153 DH starts (162 games - 9 games in NL stadiums). That still leaves 99-109 starts at DH for other players that you want to rotate through.

    Then in 2019 if you want to sign Harper you let Gardner walk to do so. He takes over in LF. He's another guy you want starting 140 games instead of the 125-130 I put for Gardner. So you do the same rotation above just adding 10-15 games (so now you have a little less time at DH for other players but still about half your games).

    Now comes 2020 when Florial could be ready. But after the 2019 season Hicks will be a 30 year old FA so you just let him walk and slot Florial right into that spot. Seamless transition, IMO.

    If we do sign Harper it will be for a long time and Judge is a huge guy (plus relatively older for a rookie) so the above scenario would make for a great situation to manage them with some DH time and preserve long careers mashing the **** out of the ball.


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  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    Don't use how they used him in the Bronx as any indication... they had Ells, Hicks and Gardner... all CF'ers themselves except with a track record at the MLB level... He's behind a pretty deep field in NY. Even at SWB, He's had Mason Williams in his way too... No, I would not look to far into that really. Its really more of a cop-out and real evidence.
    I'm not speaking as much how they used him in the Bronx as in the minors. I get that he's blocked in the MLB. Makes perfect sense.

    But in the minors it's not about winning games. If they wanted him in CF or to hone those skills I think they'd just play a non-prospect like Mason Williams in LF. It's about player development, not getting the best guys on the field at those levels.

    I don't think teams view the OF like they do the IF. With Torres for example, even if SS is the hardest spot to play you still need to move him around to 2B and 3B if you have any plans to potentially use him there long-term. In the OF I don't think you usually see that because the transition from CF to COF isn't really much to worry about like how it is in the IF. So I think normally you see teams leave the guy in CF as long as possible because that gets the best development.

    Hopefully my concerns are unfounded though and he can play CF. That's be big moving forward because as I've said, I don't plan on paying Hicks through his 30s (with our farm system I'd like to avoid paying many guys into their 30s) because we can repalce them with younger guys. Luckily Florial should be ready by the time that decision is made but it'd be nice not to have all our eggs in that basket.


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  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyi View Post
    Rumor Mill had a trade of Jason Heyward for Jeff Samarjia and Mark Melancon. Giants need OF help and want to get rid of their own bad contracts. I think I'd trade Ellsbury for either one of them, especially Samarjia. It wouldn't even effect my signing of Otani, as I would find enough starts for everyone over the course of the season, with lots of extra rest for Tanaka and Otani, etc., Almost noone's making 30 starts anymore over a 162 game season.
    Doubtful IMO they'd do that for Ellsbury. Heyward has struggled but he's still very young and has way more upside than Ellsbury. I'd honestly rather just dump Ellsbury and save even something small like $3-$5M then take back more bad deals to offset it. We have so much young talent that I value the even extremely marginal savings over adding more guys that block youngsters.


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  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I don't think moving Frazier for Yelich would block signing Harper or Florial, TBH.

    For 2018 you have an awesome 4 man rotation of Judge/Yelich/Gardner/Hicks. With all of them being so good this would mean you'd want more DH at bats allocated to them than if it's Frazier instead of Yelich though. Judge and Yelich are guys you want starting 140 games each. Gardner/Hicks at least 125-130. That's a total of 530-540 starts. So you'd use up all 486 of your OF starts between the 3 spots (162 * 3) and then 44-54 of your 153 DH starts (162 games - 9 games in NL stadiums). That still leaves 99-109 starts at DH for other players that you want to rotate through.

    Then in 2019 if you want to sign Harper you let Gardner walk to do so. He takes over in LF. He's another guy you want starting 140 games instead of the 125-130 I put for Gardner. So you do the same rotation above just adding 10-15 games (so now you have a little less time at DH for other players but still about half your games).

    Now comes 2020 when Florial could be ready. But after the 2019 season Hicks will be a 30 year old FA so you just let him walk and slot Florial right into that spot. Seamless transition, IMO.

    If we do sign Harper it will be for a long time and Judge is a huge guy (plus relatively older for a rookie) so the above scenario would make for a great situation to manage them with some DH time and preserve long careers mashing the **** out of the ball.
    And sorry for the multiple posts but just to add to this, part of why I think it'd be huge if Frazier could play CF is that we could do this same exact plan with him instead of Yelich and keep the pitching prospects. This would be my dream OF scenario.


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  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    And sorry for the multiple posts but just to add to this, part of why I think it'd be huge if Frazier could play CF is that we could do this same exact plan with him instead of Yelich and keep the pitching prospects. This would be my dream OF scenario.
    I think he can. But then if Florial gets here, what do you do with him?

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    I think he can. But then if Florial gets here, what do you do with him?
    The same scenario I described above. 4 man rotation in the OF.

    Let's say you have Judge/Harper/Frazier/Florial each start 140 games. That's a total of 560 starts.

    Between all 3 OF spots you have 486 starts available. So that means to get up to the 560 total you need 74 DH starts. And those can be used to keep Harper/Judge fresh as they age toward their 30s.

    There's a total of 153 starts at DH each year so you'd still have 79 more to spread around.

    I'm a big proponent of consolidating backup spots with rotations. If you have one guy who can back up multiple spots. So if you rotate through the OF you can instead of having 9 starters plus 4 backups more like like 11 everyday players just rotating through.


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  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I'm not speaking as much how they used him in the Bronx as in the minors. I get that he's blocked in the MLB. Makes perfect sense.

    But in the minors it's not about winning games. If they wanted him in CF or to hone those skills I think they'd just play a non-prospect like Mason Williams in LF. It's about player development, not getting the best guys on the field at those levels.

    I don't think teams view the OF like they do the IF. With Torres for example, even if SS is the hardest spot to play you still need to move him around to 2B and 3B if you have any plans to potentially use him there long-term. In the OF I don't think you usually see that because the transition from CF to COF isn't really much to worry about like how it is in the IF. So I think normally you see teams leave the guy in CF as long as possible because that gets the best development.

    Hopefully my concerns are unfounded though and he can play CF. That's be big moving forward because as I've said, I don't plan on paying Hicks through his 30s (with our farm system I'd like to avoid paying many guys into their 30s) because we can repalce them with younger guys. Luckily Florial should be ready by the time that decision is made but it'd be nice not to have all our eggs in that basket.
    Your thoughts are on except.. You're correct in that the minors is development... and if they wanted him for CF, they'd put him there... but at the same time, since the MLB level is jammed with CF'ers.. why bother working him there? So you're point you made literally goes both ways on this one.
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    The same scenario I described above. 4 man rotation in the OF.

    Let's say you have Judge/Harper/Frazier/Florial each start 140 games. That's a total of 560 starts.

    Between all 3 OF spots you have 486 starts available. So that means to get up to the 560 total you need 74 DH starts. And those can be used to keep Harper/Judge fresh as they age toward their 30s.

    There's a total of 153 starts at DH each year so you'd still have 79 more to spread around.

    I'm a big proponent of consolidating backup spots with rotations. If you have one guy who can back up multiple spots. So if you rotate through the OF you can instead of having 9 starters plus 4 backups more like like 11 everyday players just rotating through.
    Though your Baseball logic post trade is good.. still, though Yelich is good.. he's not 4 top 10 prospects in your system good (though I think Frazier has been moved off the prospects list after his season he had.. he was top 10 before he was moved off)... That's the Haul you'd give up for Stanton.. Hell, that's about what Boston gave up for Sale..

    Yelich is good.. but NOT THAT GOOD!
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  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    Though your Baseball logic post trade is good.. still, though Yelich is good.. he's not 4 top 10 prospects in your system good (though I think Frazier has been moved off the prospects list after his season he had.. he was top 10 before he was moved off)... That's the Haul you'd give up for Stanton.. Hell, that's about what Boston gave up for Sale..

    Yelich is good.. but NOT THAT GOOD!
    I agree. I've said I wouldn't do the trade because of that prospect cost. I'm just disputing some of the arguments others have made against it on account of other things like a log jam in the OF or prospects being blocked.

    Also, Stanton will cost much, much less than Yelich because of the financial implications.


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