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  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then your criteria are flat-out wrong. If you're going to give the MVP to somebody based on something they did outside of that regular season they're being judge on, then you're completely missing the point of the award. It's an award based on the 2017-18 regular season, not every single season in the last decade including the playoffs. Any accomplishments or production of a player prior to the first game of the 2017-18 season have literally no bearing whatsoever on who should win the 2017-18 MVP. This isn't a question of criteria—this is a question of what the freaking award is!

    When you look for criteria for Rookie of the Year, Coach of the Year, Most Improved Player and Defensive Player of the Year, would you look at anything other than their accomplishments of that one regular season? Of course not. That would be insane, right? So then why would you treat MVP any differently?
    Is that in the instructions given to the voters? I've never seen those rules and would like to if you have access to them.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

  2. #992
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    The whole Lebron argument would make a lot more sense if they were within, say, 6-8 games of the Rockets. Some sort of semblance of the preseason favorite for the East #1 seed being in the same ballpark of the preseason #2/3 pick in the West. Not 15+ back and fighting to try to hold onto the 3 seed (could still drop out of HCA). Especially when your RPM stats (hint: the one that accounts for both your box score numbers and your teammates play... Ie should help LeBron on both counts) are not remotely close to MVP caliber.

    Again, he has no case for MVP. Moving on.
    Last edited by tredigs; 04-04-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Is that in the instructions given to the voters? I've never seen those rules and would like to if you have access to them.
    I never said I did have access, smart guy. And I understand that the voting and criteria are unnecessarily ambiguous, but this should be a matter of common freaking sense. Look at any other major sport's MVP, and this isn't even a topic of conversation. Look at MLB. Mike Trout is almost unanimously seen as the best player in baseball, but despite still having great numbers again last year, he wasn't even seriously in the conversation for MVP (although he finished 4th) because he missed a quarter of the season and his team sucked. I didn't see anyone arguing a case for Aaron Rodgers when he missed the bulk of the year and Green Bay struggled last season, either.

    In other sports, voters and fans seem to have (relatively) common sense when it comes to voting for this award every year. Why is it that in the NBA, fans and analysts feel like they need to make the voting process so much harder than it needs to be by arguing the semantics of what "Most Valuable Player" means? I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  4. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Exactly right.
    Let's go back in time for a minute, dude. Let's suppose it's April of 2016 instead of 2018. Steph Curry is finishing off one of the single greatest individual seasons in league history while the Warriors are having one of the greatest regular seasons of all-time. Suppose you pull up a similar thread and you read someone argue that Lebron should win because "he's the best player," totally regardless of Lebron's numbers or the Cavaliers record that season.

    Do you think that would have been a fair and legitimate argument then? Because I'm guessing not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  5. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing56&33 View Post
    BD should shut Carmelo down now....let him rest, get his mind right for the playoffs. OKC need Melo to be old melo one more time for these playoffs. He's definitely on his last max contract.
    That guy has really fallen off a cliff athletically. He can still get that J going sometimes. OKC will probably need a night or two where he catches fire to do damage


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  6. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Dude, stop trolling. You and I both know you're a huge LeBron fan. It seems you're dumbing down your support for him to boost Harden here.

    1) You have no idea why Kyrie left. It was reported what ticked him off was Cavs tried trading him and Kyrie found out.
    2) Ryan Anderson is overpaid. How many underpaid players are on the Rockets? Many. And yet they perform to or above their abilities. Their pay is irrelevant right now. Can they play and are they performing to the best of their abilities? That's the bigger question.
    3) Read your reply. You said Harden is the most valuable player to the league. How is that even true? It's a typo from your end. You meant Harden is the most valuable player IN the league. There is no scenario where Harden>LeBron to the NBA.
    4) LeBron plays the most minutes. You think the guy is sitting there getting free wins? LeBron has been probably the most clutch player in the league so far. Pull up the stats. I want you to see it for yourself.
    5) +/- is based on lineups. If LeBron's playing with teammates who aren't performing well, his +/- suffers. You know what you're talking about so don't pretend that this stuff is new to you.
    6) Why can't both players deserve it? You make it seem as if one guy is significantly outperforming the other and Harden is therefore on a league of his own. What type of value are you seriously awarding to Harden that makes him far superior to everyone else? This isn't a 2015-2016 Steph Curry season where any answer not being Curry is just wrong.
    7) Lost a lot of depth? Lmao. Those guys were all replaceable. Lou Williams played terribly for you guys and CP3>Bev. Who? Sam Dekker? Explain the depth that you guys lost that wasn't significantly improved with CP3 as well?
    8) IT isn't playing bad? Wtf are you saying. Do your research. The guy isn't even PLAYING anymore because his hip is still fcked up.
    9) Crowder played well in Boston. Actually, Boston is playing well without Kyrie, Hayward, IT and they have a guy in Rosier who looks like he could drop 30 on any team. Crowder sucks in the Jazz as well. Have you not realized that his roster has been injured, replaced twice, and he's still able to hold the team together?
    10) Bad contracts, good contracts. That doesn't matter for this season, remember? It's THIS season.. like you've said ten times already.
    11) Stop responding just to respond. This isn't some "who has the snarkiest reply" competition. How has Harden been more valuable? If you say wins, I'll point to his team being better (which you won't deny). If you say stats, show me them. Which stats show Harden is decisively better? If you say +/-, you automatically lost because that's a team dependent stat. Both players deserve it, okay? You just seem to be a Rockets fan who also likes LeBron and your responses are so poor that it shows.. you want to say LeBron at times but you won't because you're a Rockets fan. That's fine. I'm a LeBron fan. And I also know that the value of an individual player is also contributed by the value of his teammates. And right now, the value of Harden's teammates is a large reason why he deserves the MVP.
    You make this hard to reply to by not quoting correctly and I'm not going to waste my ****ing time again by reading your reply, then going and reading what it's a reply to and then maybe even backtracking to your previous post..... in what basically amounts to "Yeah huh!" "Nuh uh!" "Yeah huh!" "Nuh uh!"


    MBT broke down the stats for you and reiterated (AGAIN) that this isn't a Lifetime Achievement Award but a 17-18 MVP award. But real quick....when did I say that IT wasn't playing bad? You said he was, I said he wasn't even playing anymore this year. Oh, and "To" or "In" who gives a ****. You know what I'm saying (obviously you don't because you've disagreed with me although you obviously do because you have agreed with me.....??????WTF?????).

  7. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    So Scott Brooks is dumb?
    Someone can say something dumb without me thinking that they're a dumb person. You disagree with someone (anyone) on one topic and then you automatically dismiss them as being dumb? How's that working out for you?


    Still waiting on those 5 links, hot stuff.

  8. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I never said I did have access, smart guy. And I understand that the voting and criteria are unnecessarily ambiguous, but this should be a matter of common freaking sense. Look at any other major sport's MVP, and this isn't even a topic of conversation. Look at MLB. Mike Trout is almost unanimously seen as the best player in baseball, but despite still having great numbers again last year, he wasn't even seriously in the conversation for MVP (although he finished 4th) because he missed a quarter of the season and his team sucked. I didn't see anyone arguing a case for Aaron Rodgers when he missed the bulk of the year and Green Bay struggled last season, either.

    In other sports, voters and fans seem to have (relatively) common sense when it comes to voting for this award every year. Why is it that in the NBA, fans and analysts feel like they need to make the voting process so much harder than it needs to be by arguing the semantics of what "Most Valuable Player" means? I don't get it.
    The thing is because there are no hard and fast rules is why there is always this debate. How do you determine "value"? Should team record matter at all? How do you value defense? Scoring? The quality of teammates? The quality of the competition? It would be easier if we could just pick a stat and at the end of the year whoever leads in that stat gets the award.

    And MVP voting in the NBA IS simple. The voters list who they want. That's it. It's incredibly simple.
    Last edited by Scoots; 04-04-2018 at 11:02 PM.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

  9. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Let's go back in time for a minute, dude. Let's suppose it's April of 2016 instead of 2018. Steph Curry is finishing off one of the single greatest individual seasons in league history while the Warriors are having one of the greatest regular seasons of all-time. Suppose you pull up a similar thread and you read someone argue that Lebron should win because "he's the best player," totally regardless of Lebron's numbers or the Cavaliers record that season.

    Do you think that would have been a fair and legitimate argument then? Because I'm guessing not.
    It happened. You can look it up. And yes, there was a legitimate debate based on Curry's team and offensive system and the twisted results on the changing of the game made him "look better than he was", but LeBron should win because without him his team would fall apart. Multiple discussions on how would the Warriors do with LeBron instead of Curry and likewise for the Cavs.

    Harden is going to win, you don't need to be so salty.
    MacLean's Law: Everywhere you go there will be a jerk. Corrolary: If you go somewhere by yourself you become a jerk.

    I don't care where anyone chooses to go in free agency. I really don't. Yes, KD "broke" the NBA for a year or two, but I can't blame him for going to the team that fit what he wanted.

    The worst part about the Warriors winning is that now I can't have an opinion without being a "homer" or a "hater". It used to be that dialogue had merit independent of accusations.

  10. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    It happened. You can look it up. And yes, there was a legitimate debate based on Curry's team and offensive system and the twisted results on the changing of the game made him "look better than he was", but LeBron should win because without him his team would fall apart. Multiple discussions on how would the Warriors do with LeBron instead of Curry and likewise for the Cavs.

    Harden is going to win, you don't need to be so salty.
    My point exactly.. they don't want to hear about anyone else having value to their team other than Harden because they want to paint Harden as if he's doing something unprecedented. This is not the case. Harden is having a fantastic season but he is not Curry 15-16. LeBron has a case every year for MVP if we are being serious. But Harden winning it is my prediction.

    @MTM, most of the advanced stats you threw out are team dependent as well. Harden does not beat LeBron in those same stats if we switch teams.. and you know it. So let's talk about factors that do matter when we talk about actual value or do we just ignore it now? We gonna pretend Houston doesn't have the better roster? Thank you Daryl Morey.

  11. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    @MTM, most of the advanced stats you threw out are team dependent as well. Harden does not beat LeBron in those same stats if we switch teams.. and you know it. So let's talk about factors that do matter when we talk about actual value or do we just ignore it now? We gonna pretend Houston doesn't have the better roster? Thank you Daryl Morey.
    First off, I'm not MTM, chief. If you're going to @ me, use the right abbreviation: MBT.

    As far as teammates go, I think you're playing up the "poor Lebron James and his horrible teammates card" WAY too much here, dude. If we compare Harden to Lebron in Harden's three MVP caliber seasons (14-15, 16-17, 17-18), Harden beats Lebron in PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP in all four categories all four seasons.

    So are you going to try and sit here and tell me that you'd rather have Harden's supporting cast those seasons than Lebron's supporting cast with Kryie and Love? Because that would be insane. So, yes, I abso-****ing-lutely believe that Harden would post superior advanced stats to Lebron in the regular season, because that's three years out of the last four that he's dominated him in every single one of those categories, regardless of his teammates.

    Also, you can play this up all you want, but I'm guessing you're not a mathematician or statistician. If you want to do the math and research and explain how Harden's teammates specifically led to him leading Lebron in those four categories this season, I look forward to reading it. But you're just using it as a crutch because you know you have no leg to stand on and it's the last string you have left to clutch on to when it comes to the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  12. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The thing is because there are no hard and fast rules is why there is always this debate. How do you determine "value"? Should team record matter at all? How do you value defense? Scoring? The quality of teammates? The quality of the competition? It would be easier if we could just pick a stat and at the end of the year whoever leads in that stat gets the award.

    And MVP voting in the NBA IS simple. The voters list who they want. That's it. It's incredibly simple.
    I'm not debating that there should be some level of ambiguity in the debate. I'm all for that, and I'm happy to have debates about Harden vs. Lebron (like the one I'm having with Flashbolt) regarding the award that are based on THIS SEASON. But the second you try to justify an athlete winning an MVP trophy based on something he didn't even do in the season during which he's being judged, you've completely lost sight of the award and I have no respect for the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    It happened. You can look it up.
    Not my job to look it up. If you want to prove it, that's kinda on you.

    And yes, there was a legitimate debate based on Curry's team and offensive system and the twisted results on the changing of the game made him "look better than he was", but LeBron should win because without him his team would fall apart. Multiple discussions on how would the Warriors do with LeBron instead of Curry and likewise for the Cavs.
    But those are all fair points. Misguided and inaccurate, IMO, but at least fair and with some validity. I'm not saying that Lebron has zero case for MVP (although obviously I disagree with it). I'm saying that his case for MVP should have zero to do with anything he did prior to Oct. 17, 2017.

    Harden is going to win, you don't need to be so salty.
    As far as my argument with warfelg goes, it actually has very little to do with Harden at this point and everything to do with this misguided notion that simply being the best player in the world means you're somehow entitled to the MVP every single season regardless of anything you do on the court that year. I'm not "salty" because someone wouldn't vote for Harden. I'm just completely perplexed that people actually think that's a legitimate way to judge MVP, and it admittedly ticks me off a little bit.

    If you want to suggest I'm salty about an argument in this thread, say that about my debate with FB. THAT'S the actual Harden vs. Lebron debate. This isn't that. This is a debate over the basic rules of MVP and how completely ****ing asinine some people's opinion of the award is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

  13. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    My point exactly.. they don't want to hear about anyone else having value to their team other than Harden because they want to paint Harden as if he's doing something unprecedented. This is not the case. Harden is having a fantastic season but he is not Curry 15-16. LeBron has a case every year for MVP if we are being serious. But Harden winning it is my prediction.

    @MTM, most of the advanced stats you threw out are team dependent as well. Harden does not beat LeBron in those same stats if we switch teams.. and you know it. So let's talk about factors that do matter when we talk about actual value or do we just ignore it now? We gonna pretend Houston doesn't have the better roster? Thank you Daryl Morey.
    So Curry's 15-16 was "unprecedented" and if Harden had that type of unprecedented year than it wouldn't matter about Lebron? Is that what you're saying? So someone can make us forget that Lebron is the best player in the world when awards season comes up? That flies against the "Lebron is always the most valuable because he's the best player" narrative.

  14. #1004
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    RWB is shooting under 30% from 3 this year


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    RWB is shooting under 30% from 3 this year


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    That seemed shocking to me, so I looked it up. But actually that's kind of on par with what we've seen from him over his career. He's a career 31 percent 3-point shooter, and he's shot below 30 percent now three of the last four seasons. If anything, last year as a slightly below average 3-point shooter was an outlier. You'd think that as long as he's been in the league, he would have developed that part of his game or figured out how to cut back on it to become a more efficient player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Bucks vs raptors in the ECF. Mark my words.

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