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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    In terms of military strength, yes us and to a lesser extent Russia are their main military rivals. I don't think you are thinking about this situation strategically.
    Why would we ever go to war with China? We buy all their ****. Like I said, we're their best customer, no debating that. China's whole philosophy on trade is to run massive surpluses, no one allows them to do that like the good old US of A. We're the deficit king of the world. You think they're afraid that we're going to march ground troops over their border? C'mon, aren't you a military guy?
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerbang View Post
    Why would we ever go to war with China? We buy all their ****. Like I said, we're their best customer, no debating that. China's whole philosophy on trade is to run massive surpluses, no one allows them to do that like the good old US of A. We're the deficit king of the world. You think they're afraid that we're going to march ground troops over their border? C'mon, aren't you a military guy?
    There's a lot of military actions beyond go to full scale war. Power projection and long range capability, defensive systems, etc.

    Consider that China is attempting to extert more control over the South China Sea, an area we have historically dominated due to our ability to project naval power via aircraft carriers. China has an aircraft carrier now and is building another, and is building artificial islands that allow china to dock and maintain an air and naval presense in the region.

    Those are the types of power projections that dominant military countries engage in. We controlled the South China Sea, the most profitable trade route on earth, that is slowly becoming no longer the case. If China controls it, it gives them greater negotiating power on trade deals. Our power projection has been very beneficial to us economically.

    By having an entire division on the border with China it forces them to create defensive barriers and systems in place to mitigate our presence in the region. This isn't rocket science, it's why the US was so against Cuba. We weren't afraid Russia was going to invade Florida From Cuba, but we didn't want Russia's influence and weapons capabilities so close to US soil.

    It's power posturing. Yes, I'm a 'military guy', that's why I'm able to think strategically from the military perspective. China doesn't want the 2nd Infantry Division on its border anymore than the US would be OK with the province of Tijuana being a Russian held territory and a division of Russian troops stationed on our southern border next to San Diego.

    We would prop Mexico up before we let it fall into Soviet influenced hands.
    Last edited by valade16; 09-25-2017 at 09:28 PM.

  3. #48
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    Here's a decent article on it:

    https://www.issuelab.org/resources/434/434.pdf

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There's a lot of military actions beyond go to full scale war. Power projection and long range capability, defensive systems, etc.

    Consider that China is attempting to extert more control over the South China Sea, an area we have historically dominated due to our ability to project naval power via aircraft carriers. China has an aircraft carrier now and is building another, and is building artificial islands that allow china to dock and maintain an air and naval presense in the region.

    Those are the types of power projections that dominant military countries engage in. We controlled the South China Sea, the most profitable trade route on earth, that is slowly becoming no longer the case. If China controls it, it gives them greater negotiating power on trade deals. Our power projection has been very beneficial to us economically.

    By having an entire division on the border with China it forces them to create defensive barriers and systems in place to mitigate our presence in the region. This isn't rocket science, it's why the US was so against Cuba. We weren't afraid Russia was going to invade Florida From Cuba, but we didn't want Russia's influence and weapons capabilities so close to US soil.

    It's power posturing. Yes, I'm a 'military guy', that's why I'm able to think strategically from the military perspective. China doesn't want the 2nd Infantry Division on its border anymore than the US would be OK with the province of Tijuana being a Russian held territory and a division of Russian troops stationed on our southern border next to San Diego.

    We would prop Mexico up before we let it fall into Soviet influenced hands.
    It's not really the same case. At that time we were having an ideological war with communism at a time with different technology.

    China and the US, despite having major differences in politics, hold a massive trade partnership and China gets what they want.

    The idea of war with China or Russia always makes me laugh. It's all business between those countries. It's the smaller nations with an overconfident leader we've been fighting against in more recent years.

    People always go on about a war with China if we go against NK. Why in the world would China dump by far their best trade partner for a crazy man with nuclear weapons? Typical political inaction caused this. They ignored it so long it happened. No one actually wanted NK to have nukes but they all stood around did nothing. Oops.
    Bachelors III . . . In the Inn. . . Lanas Garage 4/18/75 . . . lpswitch with Snake, Hards and Mendy . . .B.D.W.B. . . Ambition: I want Dooleys Job . . . Saturday Night Live . . . Bathroom Brawls . . . Living at Snakes . . . WHERE IS MUSKY. - John Tortorella

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...ourt-country-/

    North Korea said on Saturday targeting the U.S. mainland with its rockets was inevitable after “Mr. Evil President” Donald Trump called Pyongyang’s leader “rocket man”, further escalating rhetoric over the North’s nuclear weapons and missile programs.

    It's pretty simple, Donald Trump needs to stop escalating the situation.

    It's ironic that you said the guy who drove the car into the crowd was wrong but that both sides were wrong and escalated the situation and then not realize that's what is happening here.

    Both sides are idiots for escalating this situation.

    I'll ask again (since I didn't receive an answer): Do you think the United States should pre-emptively attack North Korea? Should we bomb them even if they have not attacked us?
    I quoted all of that in the original article that I posted. what I said is still exactly the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    they have now said that an attack on America is inevitable.
    non violent action should always be the method to use in order to get Kim Jong Un to stop this nonsense. but if they continue to push this threat moving closer to being able to have a strike on America, then America should take an action that will make sure KJU is stopped. that doesn't have to be a nuke that destroys all of North Korea, that's awfully extreme. that doesn't mean you don't threaten that. you want KJU to believe Trump will destroy them to make him wise up and do what he's told or he and his country are gone.
    I'm open to suggestions on what Trump/America could physically do. could they have a similar move that was used to kill Bin Laden in a Seal team going in to just eliminate KJU?

    the more America sits back and waits the more likely it is that North Korea will strike America, with a missile, and that will kill many. lets go ahead and prevent that.

    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    I quoted all of that in the original article that I posted. what I said is still exactly the same.

    non violent action should always be the method to use in order to get Kim Jong Un to stop this nonsense. but if they continue to push this threat moving closer to being able to have a strike on America, then America should take an action that will make sure KJU is stopped. that doesn't have to be a nuke that destroys all of North Korea, that's awfully extreme. that doesn't mean you don't threaten that. you want KJU to believe Trump will destroy them to make him wise up and do what he's told or he and his country are gone.
    I'm open to suggestions on what Trump/America could physically do. could they have a similar move that was used to kill Bin Laden in a Seal team going in to just eliminate KJU?

    the more America sits back and waits the more likely it is that North Korea will strike America, with a missile, and that will kill many. lets go ahead and prevent that.
    First Bolded: Unlikely. North Korea has radar and other surveillance and defensive technology that Bin Laden's compound didn't, not to mention Kim is far more heavily guarded and his location is kept a secret to prevent just such a thing from happening.

    Second Bolded: What is this based on? North Korea is not going to attack the US because they know the second they do the US declares war on North Korea and destroys their entire government. Kim is a bad person, but he's not a total idiot. His primary objective is to maintain control of North Korea and stay in power. Attacking the US runs directly counter to his objective and he simply won't do it, no matter how much bluster you choose to believe.

  7. #52
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    What exactly as Kim done to give the US the authority to assassinate him? He's a piece of **** and done terrible things to the North Korean people but he hasn't done anything to us like it or not. There could be an argument that South Korea has much more moral authority but verbal threats shouldn't be used for removing the head of state of another country.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    What exactly as Kim done to give the US the authority to assassinate him? He's a piece of **** and done terrible things to the North Korean people but he hasn't done anything to us like it or not. There could be an argument that South Korea has much more moral authority but verbal threats shouldn't be used for removing the head of state of another country.
    It is very bizarre that whenever liberals propose some sort of peaceful attempt at helping people from another country (such as providing them aid or money, or taking in their refugees) conservatives will say "it's not the US' job to help everybody and we have to take care of Americans first" and then when it comes to proposing a violent action like pre-emptively bombing North Korea they say "look at how terrible a leader he is, millions are dying".

    Like, no, you just said we can't afford to help everybody and we need to take care of Americans first, so you don't get to say it's to help the North Korean people when you didn't want to help the Syrian people, the Iraqi people, etc.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Pakistan, India, Israel, France, UK, US, Russia, China....

    Al have them. Next time India and Pakistan mix it up, should be take them?

    NK is a nation with borders, currency, people, economy, etc. - it's a place, not some green tinted country on a 2D map.

    So the big paternalistic US should take action? What if 1.7M innocents are killed (many in SK). Acceptable?

    Not saying no, I want more justification then Trump has been insulted.
    I'm not necessarily saying I support nk having nukes, but that's a GREAT post

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    What exactly as Kim done to give the US the authority to assassinate him? He's a piece of **** and done terrible things to the North Korean people but he hasn't done anything to us like it or not. There could be an argument that South Korea has much more moral authority but verbal threats shouldn't be used for removing the head of state of another country.
    Where have you been? The US has killed leaders, given weapons, data, and other steps dozens and dozens of times since WWII. Look at Iran-Contra. The people that support that lying maggot Oliver North are probably just about all in favor of Trump.

    The US may have wonderful stated beliefs, but it's behavior is very much in keeping with past empires. Very Bismarck. But they (and the US) were run by statesman, not blow hards with inferiority complexs and vulgar thinking and language like fake news/propaganda Trump.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    the more America sits back and waits the more likely it is that North Korea will strike America, with a missile, and that will kill many. lets go ahead and prevent that.
    They can get to Guam, forget Hawaii or the West Coast. Three or four years - maybe so.

    The threat of pseudo nuclear bomb in the athmosphere well East of Japan and where the winds will carry waste to the US (and damage to electrical equipment within thousands of miles) - that's by far the worst single thing they can do to us now. I would expect immediate decapitation of their strategic weapons within 72 hours followed by decapitation of the Army and Administration if they did that.

    There are many countries with missiles including ones we don't trust, is Trump going on a rampage against all of them too? NK is a 98 lb. weakling compared to us, not most of the others.

    The world has gotten much safer overall since 1945 - until now, Trump under the insane influence of Bannon is destroying our relationship with our allies, destroying trade agreements that benefited all (ever notice Trump is very thin on data supporting his pronouncements? He's very much like Huey Long, except not a Governor but a President. He is destroying data on police violence against blacks and on global warming.

    Trump is the enemy of this country, anyone that supports him is blinded by grievance (mostly racial), or fear, or ignorance.

    Time for those that love the US to throw off the influence of this false prophet of darkness and baseless anger. he'll be put up for impeachment before February 1st 2018. Let's see if the weakling Republicans in the House have the nerve that their earlier brothers and sisters had with Nixon, or they are so married to big donors they'll let the country rot first.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Where have you been? The US has killed leaders, given weapons, data, and other steps dozens and dozens of times since WWII. Look at Iran-Contra. The people that support that lying maggot Oliver North are probably just about all in favor of Trump.

    The US may have wonderful stated beliefs, but it's behavior is very much in keeping with past empires. Very Bismarck. But they (and the US) were run by statesman, not blow hards with inferiority complexs and vulgar thinking and language like fake news/propaganda Trump.
    That's why I said moral authority not physical authority. I get at the end of the day, might will always make right.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well China doesn't really care too much about the economic benefits with North Korea since it's not that much anyway, its more a strategic maneuver to prevent US influence and troops to be stationed directly on the Chinese border.

    Not wanting your main military rival stationed at your doorstep has nothing to do with them being afraid of is and everything to do with a sound strategic policy.
    China has to keep NK propped up - otherwise millions of hungry refugees might cross the border.

    If NK and SK do join under SK leadership, then the need for US troops become much less. I'm sure the UN could put 20k troops (a mere pittance) on the Chinese border under UN leadership, not US. That should mollify China, and would help keep its border clear of refugees.

    NK + SK would be a longer reunion than Germany until it settles out, but, Koreans like most prefer their own problems than having an occupier.

    That's a happy story, we need to be lucky on the timing for it to work out. Trump has to get off the gas pedal now and wait for Kim to make a mistake or less likely make a deal out of self interest. I think Kim will be with his ancestors within six months.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    That's why I said moral authority not physical authority. I get at the end of the day, might will always make right.
    Good. I know you're on the right side. Just like to spar it out for more insight sometimes.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban View Post
    The arming of N.Korea started in the Clinton administration, in 1995 when we gave them the money and the technology to build light-water nuclear reactors, and the coddling continued under Bush and Obama.

    Honestly this is mess a quarter century in the making, caused by the 3 previous administrations.
    North Korea first began producing plutonium in 1986 under Ronald Reagan.

    President Bill Clinton took the first to steps negotiate a treaty.

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