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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Going back to the UK.... Their police have killed 5 people this year. United States population is 5 times bigger than the UK so it should be around 25 at this point in the United States if all things were equal. But they aren't so naturally our number should be higher. I think it would be acceptable for the United States to have around 100 police involved shootingsa year. We're 5 times above that number though.
    Why do you say it should be 100 instead of 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000, etc.?


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishkabibble View Post
    Something about this entire Michael Bennett/LVPD thing seems contrived. Bennett's behaved like a guilty person, but not because he was hiding when he heard gunshots, that makes sense. But running for an exit after the cops had told everyone to "stay down?" Then continuing to run after being told to stop? Gee, uh, do you think there's a chance a cop might believe that could be the gunman?
    Was he was baiting the cops into arresting him so that he could play the "victim" card? One thing's for certain; the laughable media has played this up to be almost a Rodney King-level civil rights incident. Bennett was detained for 10 minutes...10 minutes...and clearly he was not physically abused by the cops.
    The media is shameless and obviously untrustworthy. It goes without saying they don't mind using the tragic murder of 20 kids gunned down at an elementary school in CT as an opportunity to reintroduce their gun agenda. Michael Bennett was wrongfully detained? Well then, civil rights is back on the table, fellas!
    That's what the cops said MB did. No evidence of it, to be fair. And also, you can call that acting like a guilty person but you can also call it "acting like someone who thinks the cops will shoot him dead because of his skin color even though he's innocent". That's how he actually feels and there are many others that do. You can't just discount if that's how people actually feel. That's a real problem that needs to be dealt with if we ant to get past this type of stuff.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I know in the township I worked of the 16 officers I knew, 10 had AAs in something unrelated, 3 had bachelors in Geography, Physics, and English, 2 had no degree, and the chief was the only one with a degree in Criminal Justice. Of those 10, 6 of them were military at one point. All of them were training more on tactics than law.

    It was a little disconcerting to say the least.
    Meant to highlight the part about those that do, didn't discuss the law part. That was more my contention. Poor response on my part.

    I think we must also remember that it is not the police officers job to interpret the law, but merely enforce what they are taught in their police academy's. I think your contention is more with what they are being taught...Not that they are not taught law.

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Going back to the UK.... Their police have killed 5 people this year. United States population is 5 times bigger than the UK so it should be around 25 at this point in the United States if all things were equal. But they aren't so naturally our number should be higher. I think it would be acceptable for the United States to have around 100 police involved shootingsa year. We're 5 times above that number though.
    That's not how it works. You can't multiply crime rates at population rates. It's not a direct increase. Data shows that higher populated areas have more crimes...Everywhere, not just the US. As the population increases the crime rate multiplies by a higher factor. So you wouldn't see a straight line shooting up when correlating crime to population. It would be a curved line that steepens as the population rate increases.

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    Commies! Mike McCarthy! Red red red, red rum!

    Lol back off the ledge and take off at least some of that tinfoil bud. This society has plenty of socialistic programs running already. Many too the benefit of the overall populace.

    We could probably use more given the rise in income inequality we are dealing with.


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    The only people that deserve ridicule are the one's mindlessly following the founders of BLM. All three of the founders are intersectional socialists that are, in their own words, trying to "abolish the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy".

    Ridicule is a childish tactic so I'd rather focus on the facts. Fact is, the #1 threat to black lives is gun violence from black males age 14-45. Not police. It's not even close.

    If saving black lives was the goal then most of the focus should be placed on the #1 cause of early black death which is gun violence. Gun violence within the black community is also the #1 reason black people experience more police contact.

    If people actually gave a dam about black lives they would be focused on ending warzone street culture. Again, the actual goal is to "build a mass movement of the oppressed" in order to facilitate radical social/economic policies. Not much different than the Black Panther party of the 1960's.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Exactly. Because they've already made necessary changes.

    I'm not saying that we need to disarm our police, but cops kill 500 people a year and then they wonder why Bennett is afraid of them? It's common sense.
    I'm just saying. They don't have guns lol. Not you blamed their education in that post sort of. There's a pretty big gap between saying they aren't trained well enough, which I agree with, and comparing then to a country is like nah, no guns. That would be hard to do here. It's a hard comp to use. I'd rather see another first world country who uses them but does it Safer and their stats. That kinda thing.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    That's not how it works. You can't multiply crime rates at population rates. It's not a direct increase. Data shows that higher populated areas have more crimes...Everywhere, not just the US. As the population increases the crime rate multiplies by a higher factor. So you wouldn't see a straight line shooting up when correlating crime to population. It would be a curved line that steepens as the population rate increases.
    And England doesn't have the same gun ownership laws we do. And their cops rarely have firearms themselves.

    Idk if this is accurate but a Google search says just over 700k people have a firearm license there...

    Google tells me pure quality of guns is around 300 million here.

    Why do police TYPICALLY shoot someone? They feel threatened because they have or may have a gun. It helps the cops have guns.

    Britain isn't ahead of the world in smart police. They're ahead in unarmed cops and civilians. It's completely different.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    And England doesn't have the same gun ownership laws we do. And their cops rarely have firearms themselves.

    Idk if this is accurate but a Google search says just over 700k people have a firearm license there...

    Google tells me pure quality of guns is around 300 million here.

    Why do police TYPICALLY shoot someone? They feel threatened because they have or may have a gun. It helps the cops have guns.

    Britain isn't ahead of the world in smart police. They're ahead in unarmed cops and civilians. It's completely different.
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    And England doesn't have the same gun ownership laws we do. And their cops rarely have firearms themselves.

    Idk if this is accurate but a Google search says just over 700k people have a firearm license there...

    Google tells me pure quality of guns is around 300 million here.

    Why do police TYPICALLY shoot someone? They feel threatened because they have or may have a gun. It helps the cops have guns.

    Britain isn't ahead of the world in smart police. They're ahead in unarmed cops and civilians. It's completely different.
    Hard to go by gun licenses. Not all states require them and that is generally only for hand guns.

    According to PEW 30% of Americans own guns. That would equate to 97 million Americans are gun owners

    I get about the same number for the UK, which equates to about 1% of their population are gun owners.

    More than 50% of US gun deaths are suicide

    5% of the worst counties in the US account for 68% of all US gun related deaths.

    This issue in the US is very concentrated in select areas. The vast majority of the US has zero gun related deaths each year. The issue can't be the law when the vast majority of the US abides by those "lax" gun laws with no issues. The issue here is much deeper. And it pertains to certain areas. Thanks to these extreme rates in small areas, the US as a whole looks terrible in this area. When in reality, it's not, only in a select few areas of the country.

    https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/nu...s-69-1-murder/

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.
    You're giving examples that account for an absurdly small amount of citizen - police interaction. Less than 1%. Humans are humans. Human error cannot be eradicated.

    STILL trying? This just happened in July. In the US anyone, even police officers, are assumed innocent until proven guilty. In cases like this, it can be incredibly difficult to find the evidence to convict. It's the way our justice system works. It's not always fair. Not saying this police officer was in the right. More than likely he wasn't. But proving that can be very difficult, time consuming, and expensive.

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.
    They're gonna fear police for a few generations regardless of what training programs are in place because it's so ingrained in their minds to. And they'll pass it down to their kids to fear them. It's going to take a couple of generations after the problem is "fixed" for that fear to go away. (And the tough part is that the fear sticking around is only going to make "fixing" the problem harder. It's going to be tough to get cops to stop being biased against a group of people who categorically disrespects and distrusts them.)
    Last edited by hugepatsfan; 09-12-2017 at 05:11 PM.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.
    What level of threat should cops be allowed to shoot at? You present this like it's a black and white issue but there's a lot of gray there. Cops can get killed by waiting for the "remote" threat to become a "severe" threat and it's human nature for cops to want to avoid that.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    They're gonna fear police for a few generations regardless of what training programs are in place because it's so ingrained in their minds to. And they'll pass it down to their kids to fear them. It's going to take a couple of generations after the problem is "fixed" for that fear to go away. (And the tough part is that the fear sticking around is only going to make "fixing" the problem go away. It's going to be tough to get cops to stop being biased against a group of people who categorically disrespects and distrusts them.)
    Agreed, but this isn't even a new issue. It's been going on for decades. It's just more prevalent in the media now. These problems are not new. As a whole, by percentage, it's probably better than it's ever been in the last 100 years in regards to authority relations to minority communities. Still has a LONGGG way to go though

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    What level of threat should cops be allowed to shoot at? You present this like it's a black and white issue but there's a lot of gray there. Cops can get killed by waiting for the "remote" threat to become a "severe" threat and it's human nature for cops to want to avoid that.
    Exactly. It's basic human instinct. Can't train that. We've all heard of the fight or flight gene, it's engrained in us and when we're faced with certain situations we naturally default to fight or flight.

    Similar to a police officer, or anyone who feels threatened. Our natural instinct is to live and protect ourselves. We will always default to that. Not saying it right or wrong, but if I feel threatened and I have a family at home, I'm doing whatever it takes to make it back to them and to keep myself alive. I'll deal with the consequences of my actions later.

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Exactly. It's basic human instinct. Can't train that. We've all heard of the fight or flight gene, it's engrained in us and when we're faced with certain situations we naturally default to fight or flight.

    Similar to a police officer, or anyone who feels threatened. Our natural instinct is to live and protect ourselves. We will always default to that. Not saying it right or wrong, but if I feel threatened and I have a family at home, I'm doing whatever it takes to make it back to them and to keep myself alive. I'll deal with the consequences of my actions later.
    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    What level of threat should cops be allowed to shoot at? You present this like it's a black and white issue but there's a lot of gray there. Cops can get killed by waiting for the "remote" threat to become a "severe" threat and it's human nature for cops to want to avoid that.
    That's why there needs to be more conflict resolution training so that police can better understand the signs and better ***** the situation.

    I work as a social worker for a mental health organization, and I interact with them frequently. Although I've never seen a police officer kill or harm someone, the amount of stuff about their own job that they don't know is truly mind boggling. And it goes all the way up to the sheriff. Do you know that most police departments don't train their officers how to interact with someone with mental illness? And then they wonder why 25% of the people police kill have mental illness or an emotional crisis.

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