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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    That's why there needs to be more conflict resolution training so that police can better understand the signs and better ***** the situation.

    I work as a social worker for a mental health organization, and I interact with them frequently. Although I've never seen a police officer kill or harm someone, the amount of stuff about their own job that they don't know is truly mind boggling. And it goes all the way up to the sheriff. Do you know that most police departments don't train their officers how to interact with someone with mental illness? And then they wonder why 25% of the people police kill have mental illness or an emotional crisis.
    I think it's unfair to say this about police in relation to mental illness. As a society we don't even know how to interact with the mentally ill. Mentally ill is such a broad term and without even knowing the type of illness one is dealing with, it's incredibly difficult to expect someone just arriving on the scene with zero background information to be able to correctly identify the situation and make the right call. Mental illness is incredibly misunderstood by EVERYONE. Not just police officers.

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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.
    Could you really imagine asking cops to not carry guns with how prevalent guns are in America? It ends up being a gun control issue first. That's what I'm getting at. You have to limit gun ownership to pull that off. Good luck with that here... Am I making sense? I don't disagree with your overall sentiment.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    Hard to go by gun licenses. Not all states require them and that is generally only for hand guns.

    According to PEW 30% of Americans own guns. That would equate to 97 million Americans are gun owners

    I get about the same number for the UK, which equates to about 1% of their population are gun owners.

    More than 50% of US gun deaths are suicide

    5% of the worst counties in the US account for 68% of all US gun related deaths.

    This issue in the US is very concentrated in select areas. The vast majority of the US has zero gun related deaths each year. The issue can't be the law when the vast majority of the US abides by those "lax" gun laws with no issues. The issue here is much deeper. And it pertains to certain areas. Thanks to these extreme rates in small areas, the US as a whole looks terrible in this area. When in reality, it's not, only in a select few areas of the country.

    https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/nu...s-69-1-murder/
    FWIW I wasn't using gun licenses for the states. I was using the figures for total guns versus licenses in the UK. I was taking a poop break and that's all I could find that quickly lol.

    I agree with your sentiment as well. BUT having it on concentrated areas doesn't make it better to me. I don't believe anyone was arguing it's everywhere. It's just too common in totality.

  4. #79
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    I always wonder how much everyone would change if we had to walk a life in all these shoes. A cop, a minority, a white. Etc. Then look at all of it and form a view. As it is, I can't for the life of me decide where I truly stand. I see so many things that make sense to a degree. It's VERY grey.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    FWIW I wasn't using gun licenses for the states. I was using the figures for total guns versus licenses in the UK. I was taking a poop break and that's all I could find that quickly lol.

    I agree with your sentiment as well. BUT having it on concentrated areas doesn't make it better to me. I don't believe anyone was arguing it's everywhere. It's just too common in totality.
    I think when one compares total crime rates to other nations they're arguing it's everywhere because the figures they're using are inclusive of everywhere. If they would dig deeper and see that 5% is responsible for 70% of the gun crime, it would work against their point.

    Not stating you did this btw. But mg wants to compare rates from here to UK and it really isn't a fair comparison.

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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    I always wonder how much everyone would change if we had to walk a life in all these shoes. A cop, a minority, a white. Etc. Then look at all of it and form a view. As it is, I can't for the life of me decide where I truly stand. I see so many things that make sense to a degree. It's VERY grey.
    It's 100% grey. I hate broad statements. Not all white people have "white privilege". Not all African Americans are thugs. We would be much better off if we didn't compare things with broad statistics but rather look at each incident case by case, fact by fact and judge solely on that.

    Racism exists, but there is not 1 single law in this country that is inherently racist as it is written. Racism and racist actions also get confused. They're not one in the same.

    I don't like statement "walk in a _____ guys shoes". My experience growing up as a white male is completely different than other white males experience and that goes for every single race, religion, sexual orientation and whatever other broad category exists out there. We need to start seeing people as individuals and not associate them by a category they may belong to.

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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    It's 100% grey. I hate broad statements. Not all white people have "white privilege". Not all African Americans are thugs. We would be much better off if we didn't compare things with broad statistics but rather look at each incident case by case, fact by fact and judge solely on that.

    Racism exists, but there is not 1 single law in this country that is inherently racist as it is written. Racism and racist actions also get confused. They're not one in the same.

    I don't like statement "walk in a _____ guys shoes". My experience growing up as a white male is completely different than other white males experience and that goes for every single race, religion, sexual orientation and whatever other broad category exists out there. We need to start seeing people as individuals and not associate them by a category they may belong to.
    1st bold: agree to a point, but broad statistic gathering can still help to identify gaps and issues. Big Data is a thing that isn't going away. It's all about using it correctly, and many people do not understand or do not care to use statistics as they should and weigh their strengths and their limitations.

    2nd bold: While any sort of explicitly racist law on the books would likely get struck down. There are ton of instances, historical and current, of laws that are put on the books with the design to have a racist execution that would subvert the need for an overtly racist law.

    3rd bold: very much agree with that, but I think the essence of 'walk in another person's shoes' is meant to be that. To not make assumptions without weighing the possibility that things aren't just the way you see it, and to try and see things from as many different viewpoints as you can.

    But again it's foolish to not draw correlations when they are there. You just have to weigh the appropriateness of correlations and understand that correlations don't imply causation. And when you paint in general swaths, there is always going to be a very high margin of error.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    It's 100% grey. I hate broad statements. Not all white people have "white privilege". Not all African Americans are thugs. We would be much better off if we didn't compare things with broad statistics but rather look at each incident case by case, fact by fact and judge solely on that.

    Racism exists, but there is not 1 single law in this country that is inherently racist as it is written. Racism and racist actions also get confused. They're not one in the same.

    I don't like statement "walk in a _____ guys shoes". My experience growing up as a white male is completely different than other white males experience and that goes for every single race, religion, sexual orientation and whatever other broad category exists out there. We need to start seeing people as individuals and not associate them by a category they may belong to.
    I just believe it's impossible for some random white dude in most cases to feel what Bennett might feel. But lots of people speak like they do and it's obvious they'd know how'd they'd act and that's BS.

  9. #84
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    He is a moron, trying to make himself a martyr

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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Only 1% of Police departments require a college degree and not even half the police officers reported taking a single college course.

    https://www.policeone.com/education/...ke-more-money/
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    England has had 55 fatal police shootings in the last 24 years..... The United States had 59 in the first 24 days of 2015.

    Look at any of the police brutality statistics and it will tell you all you need to know. Officers are not properly vetted, educated, or trained. These are people being given dangerous weapons, and they don't have the knowledge or expertise to use them properly.

    I mean 1% of the departments requires more than a high school education? And these people are supposed to know how when to use lethal force, and when not to?

    No. They've proven that it needs an overhaul. The rotten Apple argument no longer holds water when there has been so much violence from the boys in blue.
    I agree and disagree with parts of this post.
    As far as police officers being properly vetted you are correct. Most areas in this country are desperate for cops and they don't have enough quality candidates. Unfortunately there are far too many people becoming law enforcement officers just because places need bodies.

    Where I live the hiring process is extremely difficult and only high quality candidates get jobs. Obviously, a few slip through the cracks here and there but generally speaking thats not the case. Education is required by many departments and strongly advised in most others. I would say the large majority of police officers in NJ have college degrees without looking at the actual statistics.

    With that said, I don't think formal college education is necessary for this job. I know great cops who started their career right out of high school. I know other police officers who have doctorates but are complete idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Well pay is definitely part of the problem. Cops/EMT/fire rescue are payed like crap. I know a few EMTs that make $15-20/hour. Think in a possible 12 hour shift they make $240 and save 2-5 lives. Cops I know aren't paid much higher.

    America has quite the inverse relationship from pay/risk when it comes to employment.

    Crap most my friends are cops, teachers, firefighters; and the all make less than me, the golf coach.
    There are a lot of places where police do get paid like absolute dog ****. It's a real shame. Maybe better candidates would be interested if the pay was higher.

    I'm just glad NJ gets paid well.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    Are you familiar with Justine Damond? She's an Australian who was living in a little crime neighborhood in Minneapolis. She called the police because she thought she heard an assault. She went to the cop car as it pulled up, and a firework went off. The cop in the passenger side of the car fired his gun over the the shoulder of the officer in the driver's seat and killed Justine. They're STILL trying to decide if he should be charged.

    My question is why does every cop in the U.S. need guns? How many of these killings would be avoided if the cops didn't adapt a shoot first, all questions later mentality. I feel that if the cops feel even remotely threatened, they're going to pull the trigger because they know they'll get away with it.

    Cops need to be paid more money, have stricter job requirements, have stricter education requirements, and not be issued a firearm until they pass some sort of conflict resolution class. Minorities will continue to fear police until they are adequately trained imo.... Maybe they need to just make the pass standards of their training much more difficult idk. Status quo is certainly failing though, and it won't change by itself.
    Yes, I think all cops need to carry weapons.
    Cop related killings are very high in the US, I will give you that.
    However, how many are justified?
    What percentage of those deaths are suicide by cop?
    Before you use that number of 500 I think its important to know a more specific breakdown of the killings.

    So far in 2017 39 police officers have been killed due to gun shot wounds, stabbing, assault, and vehicular assault. If police officers didn't have guns, how much higher would that number be????

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakmont_4 View Post
    I think it's unfair to say this about police in relation to mental illness. As a society we don't even know how to interact with the mentally ill. Mentally ill is such a broad term and without even knowing the type of illness one is dealing with, it's incredibly difficult to expect someone just arriving on the scene with zero background information to be able to correctly identify the situation and make the right call. Mental illness is incredibly misunderstood by EVERYONE. Not just police officers.
    The problem is that police are supposed to know.... That's part of their damn job.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    It is a different issue. Sure they're is some link between them but that still doesn't mean protesting one is ignoring the other.
    It's not a different issue. Warzone levels of gun violence is directly linked with policing.

    Like I said earlier, about 90% of black gun violence is homicide while 80% of white gun violence is suicide. If that were reversed white people would have more police contact per capita.

    We need to end this warzone street culture.

  13. #88
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    Less people are killed by cops in the UK because the UK doesn't have cities where 700+ people are killed each year. That happened in Chicago 2016 and it's not even the highest murder rate per capita.

    Gun violence within the black community feeds aggressive policing. This is just a fact.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Could you really imagine asking cops to not carry guns with how prevalent guns are in America? It ends up being a gun control issue first. That's what I'm getting at. You have to limit gun ownership to pull that off. Good luck with that here... Am I making sense? I don't disagree with your overall sentiment.
    That's why I think they should work their way up to being given one. There's a lot of Police out there working in areas that don't need a gun. You wanna carry a gun? Prove that you're capable.

    Or at least require two years in the police academy. It seems like a vast majority of the **** ups are because the cop had piss poor training and should never have been out there with a fun and a badge in the first place.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    That's why I think they should work their way up to being given one. There's a lot of Police out there working in areas that don't need a gun. You wanna carry a gun? Prove that you're capable.

    Or at least require two years in the police academy. It seems like a vast majority of the **** ups are because the cop had piss poor training and should never have been out there with a fun and a badge in the first place.
    You are living in a different reality.
    In my opinion, there are ZERO areas that police don't need a gun..ZERO. Absolutely none.

    And a minimum of two years in the police academy? Absolutely unnecessary.

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