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  1. #2161
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    I'd be ok saying Dak, Zeke, and Smith are top 3. Martin and Lee probably round out the top 5. Witten's in the mex too.
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  2. #2162
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    The QB on the team should always be in the top 3 most valuable players on the team. A lot of teams don't go as far as their QB does/doesn't take them.

    There are outliers for sure but I'd say for the most part the QB is in the top 3 most important/valuable parts of the team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  3. #2163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydubb View Post
    On offense, yes, on the whole team no because apparently according to cowboy fans the loss of Sean lee alone takes a good defense to a terrible defense. That's an extremely important player.. So for me I'd say order of importance to team goes OL, Zeke, Sean lee, dak. I kinda grouped the whole offensive line together there, but if we are going off most important players I'd say probably zeke, Sean lee, tyron Smith, dak prescott in that order.

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    I didn't group the Oline together, but I thought about it. I'd put the Eagles at Wentz, Johnson (last year and this year with the loss of Johnson vs Peters is huge indication as to who's more important out of the top 2 linemen on the team). I'd add Cox to the Eagles top 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  4. #2164
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    This narrative appears to be keep changing. It started with, "Anyone who doesn't think Dak is the most important Cowboy". I don't know of anyone who doesn't have him top 3 on the Cowboys in order of importance.

    I haven't waivered, for me it's: Zeke, OL, Dak, in that order.
    On offense, yes, on the whole team no because apparently according to cowboy fans the loss of Sean lee alone takes a good defense to a terrible defense. That's an extremely important player.. So for me I'd say order of importance to team goes OL, Zeke, Sean lee, dak. I kinda grouped the whole offensive line together there, but if we are going off most important players I'd say probably zeke, Sean lee, tyron Smith, dak prescott in that order.

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  5. #2165
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    This narrative appears to be keep changing. It started with, "Anyone who doesn't think Dak is the most important Cowboy". I don't know of anyone who doesn't have him top 3 on the Cowboys in order of importance.

    I haven't waivered, for me it's: Zeke, OL, Dak, in that order.
    This. I've been saying and getting slammed for saying that Dak wasn't the most important player on that offense. That doesn't mean he's not important at all... He's doing a damn good job doing what is asked of him.

  6. #2166
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    This narrative appears to be keep changing. It started with, "Anyone who doesn't think Dak is the most important Cowboy". I don't know of anyone who doesn't have him top 3 on the Cowboys in order of importance.

    I haven't waivered, for me it's: Zeke, OL, Dak, in that order.
    War didn't somewhere in my catching up I think he had Smith, Lee, Zeke.

    And Dak is hands down number 1, there should be very little argument there. You'd have to think Dak is a pretty ****** QB for that to not be the case.

    Who would you have as your most important Texan?
    Who would you have as your most important Seahawk?
    Who would you have as your most important Packer?
    Who would you have as your most important Raider?
    Who would you have as your most important Saint?
    Who would you have as your most important Falcon?

    can go on and on, but I'd have serious questions/doubts for anyone that doesn't name the QB as the answer to these.
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  7. #2167
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    The QB on the team should always be in the top 3 most valuable players on the team. A lot of teams don't go as far as their QB does/doesn't take them.

    There are outliers for sure but I'd say for the most part the QB is in the top 3 most important/valuable parts of the team.
    I'd agree for the most part, although since Dallas relies so heavily on getting their offense going through the run game I'd say it's the exception. Zeke and tyron Smith are so key to that offense. The falcons were in the bottom third of the league for rush defense going into week 10 and they contained the cowboys pretty well because zeke and smith were out. If zeke and smith were there I bet they'd put up possibly twice as many rush yards tbh. Also, if smith was in, clayborn most definitely wouldn't have looked like a hall of fame player.

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  8. #2168
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    War didn't somewhere in my catching up I think he had Smith, Lee, Zeke.

    And Dak is hands down number 1, there should be very little argument there. You'd have to think Dak is a pretty ****** QB for that to not be the case.

    Who would you have as your most important Texan?
    Who would you have as your most important Seahawk?
    Who would you have as your most important Packer?
    Who would you have as your most important Raider?
    Who would you have as your most important Saint?
    Who would you have as your most important Falcon?

    can go on and on, but I'd have serious questions/doubts for anyone that doesn't name the QB as the answer to these.
    Thing is it isnít the same for every team. You picked some teams where the answer is the QB.

    Steelers most important 3 are: Bell, Brown, Hayward.

    Jags are Fournette, Bouye, Ramsey

    Cards is Fitz, Johnson, PP

    Heck I donít even think Wilson is the most important seahawk. Top 3 sure, but I think ET is far more important.

    What about Minny where is seems to go Rhodes, Smith, Griffin?

    You could even make an argument that in KC itís Kelce, Hunt, Berry.

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  9. #2169
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I'd be ok saying Dak, Zeke, and Smith are top 3. Martin and Lee probably round out the top 5. Witten's in the mex too.
    I think Lee has to be in the top 3 as far as most important Cowboys because of the impact that's been shown when he is in versus when he is out.

    Smith kind of perplexes me. Atlanta was a very extreme case, he's been out of games before and I can't recall the impact being anywhere near as extreme as that was before. And he's absolutely great don't get me wrong, but you can usually make do with one lineman out when you have general talent around him because at the very least you can give help to that lineman.

    I think it's for sure Dak #1, then after that I'd lean Lee. Number 3 I'm not exactly sure who I'd go with as it could be between Smith, Zeke, and perhaps in the past two years an argument could be made for Irving in the discussion as well. Smith is even more interesting this year, because he has been hampered by a back problem all year that will likely need some sort of offseason surgery (which is its own sort of concerning for the future).
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  10. #2170
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Thing is it isnít the same for every team. You picked some teams where the answer is the QB.

    Steelers most important 3 are: Bell, Brown, Hayward.

    Jags are Fournette, Bouye, Ramsey

    Cards is Fitz, Johnson, PP

    Heck I donít even think Wilson is the most important seahawk. Top 3 sure, but I think ET is far more important.

    What about Minny where is seems to go Rhodes, Smith, Griffin?

    You could even make an argument that in KC itís Kelce, Hunt, Berry.
    Steelers are still Big Ben hands down. We've seen how they perform without him and it's not pretty. Brown had his random streak of 5/50 broken when Ben was out.

    Jags if they had a QB worth a damn would be perennial super bowl contenders for the next 4 or 5 years because they have been able to build that team up with so much talent. But because they don't have a QB worth a damn they are not nearly the threat they could be (hence further proving my point).

    Cards are not a threat and the QB position lacking is a part of that problem.

    Wilson is definitely the most important Seahawk. Behind that line most QBs would get absolutely demolished and what he is doing is extremely impressive to me and that offense being functional is only possible because of his skillset. ET is definitely number 2 for me though as he is an absolute stud and one of my favorite players.

    Minny has a bunch of decent - slightly above average QBs and would be a much more threatening team with an upper tier QB. They are very well balanced and skilled across the board and that is why they are still dangerous. Keenum has been overperforming a bit and I sincerely question how long it will last. Teddy will take over at some point and even Zimm has gone as far to intimate that.

    KC I don't know because maybe Mahomes could step in and do what he's doing, but there would be serious risk in that and that's a bit of a unique situation.
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  11. #2171
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I didn't group the Oline together, but I thought about it. I'd put the Eagles at Wentz, Johnson (last year and this year with the loss of Johnson vs Peters is huge indication as to who's more important out of the top 2 linemen on the team). I'd add Cox to the Eagles top 3.
    I'd agree with that ranking for the eagles. Wentz makes the offense go so he's #1. The loss of Johnson and cox alone has shown what could happen to the entire offense and defense. The eagles were 5-1 with Johnson last year and 2-8 without him. Also, it's extremely clear how important cox is.. It effects the whole defensive line and when the line can't get pressure, it gives QBs more time to pick apart the cornerbacks (which I'd say is still the worst unit on the eagles even though they are much improved from last year).

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  12. #2172
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeW-Star View Post
    War didn't somewhere in my catching up I think he had Smith, Lee, Zeke.

    And Dak is hands down number 1, there should be very little argument there. You'd have to think Dak is a pretty ****** QB for that to not be the case.

    Who would you have as your most important Texan?
    Who would you have as your most important Seahawk?
    Who would you have as your most important Packer?
    Who would you have as your most important Raider?
    Who would you have as your most important Saint?
    Who would you have as your most important Falcon?

    can go on and on, but I'd have serious questions/doubts for anyone that doesn't name the QB as the answer to these.
    Except he's not "hands down #1", hell, he's not even hands down consensus to Dallas fans, let alone probing outside fan base opinion. There is argument to be made, sire, but "hands down", no.

    The QB isn't ALWAYS the most important player. You think Case Keenum is the most important guy to Minny? Kizer? Beathard? Eli? The list goes on an on. What get's overblown in this regard is using an awful non-starting capable backup in their place instead of a replacement level guy.

    Carson, trust me, even if you turn out to be a really bad QB, BDawk4Prez will always defend you on PSD.

  13. #2173
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Except he's not "hands down #1", hell, he's not even hands down consensus to Dallas fans, let alone probing outside fan base opinion. There is argument to be made, sire, but "hands down", no.

    The QB isn't ALWAYS the most important player. You think Case Keenum is the most important guy to Minny? Kizer? Beathard? Eli? The list goes on an on. What get's overblown in this regard is using an awful non-starting capable backup in their place instead of a replacement level guy.
    Using 'replacement level' which I'd maybe be fine with for awards purposes but not when we are actually discussing the most important to their specific team. Because when your QB or your LT goes down it's not the replacement level player that is typically stepping in (at least not in how you are using 'replacement player'), it's their backups.

    But either way 'replacement level' players are not good players, from fangraphs this is what a replacement level player is:

    "Replacement level is simply the level of production you could get from a player that would cost you nothing but the league minimum salary to acquire."

    The QBs you are getting for the league minimum salary are pretty damn awful. All replacement players are pretty awful, but the have and have not's at a position of QB and the overall impact of the position itself is so drastic and stark the drop is felt extremely hard there.

    Even if we adjust that definition of replacement level to maybe your average backup or to even the bottom barrel starters such as McCown or Fitzpatrick or Osweiler you will see some pretty drastic fall offs to a teams production at the QB position.
    Last edited by DeW-Star; 11-14-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Except he's not "hands down #1", hell, he's not even hands down consensus to Dallas fans, let alone probing outside fan base opinion. There is argument to be made, sire, but "hands down", no.

    The QB isn't ALWAYS the most important player. You think Case Keenum is the most important guy to Minny? Kizer? Beathard? Eli? The list goes on an on. What get's overblown in this regard is using an awful non-starting capable backup in their place instead of a replacement level guy.
    See you could argue the QB should be the most or at least top 3 most important player on teams like the Browns and SF. That maybe a better QB could make them more competent. Hell, Denver's top 10 players wouldn't have their QB but he's obviously an important piece because of how bad he is.

    For teams it depends on their need. I think a team like Seattle, that was said, doesn't need to have a great QB. They had a great defense and running game when they dominated. No run game and their QB play is still really good but now Wilson is added into needed to be a top 3 important player.

    Majority of teams should have a QB in their top 3 most important players. I could see the argument for Dak not being in the Cowboys top 3 but I feel he's definitely in there as I consider their offense to be more important than their defense for the team to be good. That's why I'd have Lee outside the top 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  15. #2175
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    See you could argue the QB should be the most or at least top 3 most important player on teams like the Browns and SF. That maybe a better QB could make them more competent. Hell, Denver's top 10 players wouldn't have their QB but he's obviously an important piece because of how bad he is.

    For teams it depends on their need. I think a team like Seattle, that was said, doesn't need to have a great QB. They had a great defense and running game when they dominated. No run game and their QB play is still really good but now Wilson is added into needed to be a top 3 important player.

    Majority of teams should have a QB in their top 3 most important players. I could see the argument for Dak not being in the Cowboys top 3 but I feel he's definitely in there as I consider their offense to be more important than their defense for the team to be good. That's why I'd have Lee outside the top 3.
    No disagreement from me.

    Carson, trust me, even if you turn out to be a really bad QB, BDawk4Prez will always defend you on PSD.

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