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  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I don't have a problem with focusing on the sale of legally purchased guns to criminals or efforts to curve or regulate people from buying large quantities of legal guns.

    Would you also be opposed to stricter punishments for owning an illegal/unregistered guns and additional punishments if that gun is used to commit a crime?
    Well if it's a crime to have then it automatically becomes something you can charge someone with in addiction to their crime right?

    There are several places where a crime with a gun is punished more severely than a crime without a gun. I'd want to see if those laws work to reduce gun crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    How do legal gun sales impact illegal guns? It doesnt really. It's a political talking point.

    Illegal guns are used in the vast majority of gun murders. We don't have a gun violence problem. We have an illegal gun violence problem.

    The rest of gun violence is attributed to suicide. However, suicudes are a mental health issue and there's no evidence that a lack of guns would cause less suicides on a major scale. Currently, the US ranks among Sweden and France in suicides per capita. While obviously no suicide is good, those countries are gun havens and still have them.
    Wait so you are saying the quantity of legal gun sales have no effect on the quantity of illegal guns? Really so you are saying that no legal gun sale ends up with a illegal gun in the hands of a criminal. There is no one legally buying guns with the intention to sell them illegally?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Wait so you are saying the quantity of legal gun sales have no effect on the quantity of illegal guns? Really so you are saying that no legal gun sale ends up with a illegal gun in the hands of a criminal. There is no one legally buying guns with the intention to sell them illegally?
    I said in other threads to limit the amount of gun sales to one person. But there's no reason to put someone legally buying one gun through an extended process to stop illegal gun sales. The two instances don't jive.

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Well if it's a crime to have then it automatically becomes something you can charge someone with in addiction to their crime right?

    There are several places where a crime with a gun is punished more severely than a crime without a gun. I'd want to see if those laws work to reduce gun crime.
    For having a gun, but specifically to illegal guns.

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmmahhh View Post
    So you are essentially agreeing with the left then since you're suggesting amending the 2nd amendment for reasons such as your "physical" test?

    Faux News, Trump and the Alt Right will be disappointed with you, foreigner.

    the left wants to take away guns. nowhere have I ever said that.



  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    You have to realize that finding studies that set out to prove your version does not make your information "factual" and others not.

    I've said that once a gun is sold illegally, I'm fine with prosecuting those people. Your alcohol analogy is nonsense. Alcohol being used by teenagers illegally would be the equivalent to a criminal using an illegal firearm. A more accurate analogy would be saying teenagers get alcohol from legal adults who buy it for or sell it to them, therefore the best way to solve this issue is to make everyone entering a bar to do a background check.

    I've already stated that I'm in favor of laws that would curtail purchasing large quantity of guns, additional serial numbers, and actions against illegally selling firearms. Are you in favor of stricter laws to punish illegal gun users or owners?

    Again, I'm not factually wrong. You are dismissing numbers because they don't fit your study. Iraq has one of the top guns per capita and one of the smallest suicide rates. The US doesn't just fall in line with "a couple of industrialized nations." They are ranked 48th and among many industrialized nations in terms of suicide rates. You don't need a study to figure this out. Just look at the numbers yourself.
    First Bolded: Your answer was "I have no counter to actual statistics on the matter therefore I'm going to dismiss facts"

    If you don't care about actual facts then I'm sorry, I don't care about your opinion.

    Second Bolded: I did look the numbers up myself, here's the actual World Health Organization rates from 2015:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

    I assume you saw the list and made the honest mistake of simply looking at our ranking and thinking that was best. But no, 48th means 48th worst on that list. We are actually 135th, which is near the bottom. In terms of industrialized nations we are behind (in order of least suicides to most):

    Greece, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Portugal, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Ireland, Austria, Iceland

    and in line with France, New Zealand, Sweden and ahead of Finland, Belgium, and Poland.

    Now here is the list of the countries with the most guns:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

    Here are the industrialized nations in order of most guns:

    US
    Finland
    Sweden
    Norway
    France

    4 of the top 5 industrialized nations with the most firearms in the world are among the highest of industrialized countries for suicides.

    As for your absurd claim that I'm dismissing numbers because they don't fit with my narrative that is untrue. I'm saying they are outliers. You do know what an outlier is don't you? When the majority of the data is pointing one way showing a handful of outliers isn't a strong case.

    Here's another study that you will ignore that shows 'strong empirical evidence that restriction of access to firearms reduces suicides': https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/.

    But since you have already admitted you don't care about actual facts and data, I have a simple question for you:

    What is an illegal gun. What is your definition of an illegal gun.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Your answer was "I have no counter to actual statistics on the matter therefore I'm going to dismiss facts"

    If you don't care about actual facts then I'm sorry, I don't care about your opinion.

    Second Bolded: I did look the numbers up myself, here's the actual World Health Organization rates from 2015:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

    I assume you saw the list and made the honest mistake of simply looking at our ranking and thinking that was best. But no, 48th means 48th worst on that list. We are actually 135th, which is near the bottom. In terms of industrialized nations we are behind (in order of least suicides to most):

    Greece, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Portugal, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Ireland, Austria, Iceland

    and in line with France, New Zealand, Sweden and ahead of Finland, Belgium, and Poland.

    Now here is the list of the countries with the most guns:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

    Here are the industrialized nations in order of most guns:

    US
    Finland
    Sweden
    Norway
    France

    4 of the top 5 industrialized nations with the most firearms in the world are among the highest of industrialized countries for suicides.

    As for your absurd claim that I'm dismissing numbers because they don't fit with my narrative that is untrue. I'm saying they are outliers. You do know what an outlier is don't you? When the majority of the data is pointing one way showing a handful of outliers isn't a strong case.

    Here's another study that you will ignore that shows 'strong empirical evidence that restriction of access to firearms reduces suicides': https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/.

    But since you have already admitted you don't care about actual facts and data, I have a simple question for you:

    What is an illegal gun. What is your definition of an illegal gun.
    No there's a difference between statistics and biased studies...here watch:

    While the US and a few other countries may show a correlation between gun and suicide stats, several other states do not.

    First of all, while not industrialized countries, the top 5-10 countries with the highest suicide rates have among the lowest gun rates. Also, several other countries which are industrialized have high suicide and low gun rates- Japan, Poland, Kazakhstan, etc.

    Of course when you look at a few countries and find a correlation that fits your narrative,it's easy to conclude you have found the reason. But those instances don't equal the entire picture. The only conclusion between these statistics is inconclusive at best. We can probably inject several other relevant factors to make a conclusion- socio, economic, type of government, etc.

  8. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    No there's a difference between statistics and biased studies...here watch:

    While the US and a few other countries may show a correlation between gun and suicide stats, several other states do not.

    First of all, while not industrialized countries, the top 5-10 countries with the highest suicide rates have among the lowest gun rates. Also, several other countries which are industrialized have high suicide and low gun rates- Japan, Poland, Kazakhstan, etc.

    Of course when you look at a few countries and find a correlation that fits your narrative,it's easy to conclude you have found the reason. But those instances don't equal the entire picture. The only conclusion between these statistics is inconclusive at best. We can probably inject several other relevant factors to make a conclusion- socio, economic, type of government, etc.
    As you have done. You're right, there are other factors that go into suicide rates. I've never disputed that.

    The argument right now is between me saying that gun ownership rates are a factor in the number of suicides and you saying it isn't a factor at all.

    That is factually incorrect. I have posted the studies and the data, you have chosen to ignore them. We have reached an impasse on the subject.

  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    As you have done. You're right, there are other factors that go into suicide rates. I've never disputed that.

    The argument right now is between me saying that gun ownership rates are a factor in the number of suicides and you saying it isn't a factor at all.

    That is factually incorrect. I have posted the studies and the data, you have chosen to ignore them. We have reached an impasse on the subject.
    I never said it wasn't a factor or possibly a factor. Just that there's no evidence or statistics which provide enough of a direct correlation to trample on gun ownership rights.

    Often times people look at stats and try to incorporate them into their beliefs. If there was a direct and conclusive link between gun rights and suicide rates, you would see the link in most countries.

    Watch how easy it is: Japan and the US have higher suicide rates. Japan and the US also have high cell phone and electronics usage, therefore there is a link between suicide rates and cell phone usage.

  10. #415
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    The GOP being incredibly impotent and ineffective in working with Trump (largely because they know he doesn't have their back) and him being mani--working with Democrats, and then actually saying decent things about immigrants being the thing that gets Ann Coulter to turn on him is hilarious.

    Too bad about the wall, though. It's almost like that was never going to happen anyway.

    Edit: yep, Trump completely caved on the wall. Just another lie for his idiot base to eat up and try and defend even after the fact. What a joke lmao
    Last edited by browski234; 09-14-2017 at 10:25 AM.

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I never said it wasn't a factor or possibly a factor. Just that there's no evidence or statistics which provide enough of a direct correlation to trample on gun ownership rights.

    Often times people look at stats and try to incorporate them into their beliefs. If there was a direct and conclusive link between gun rights and suicide rates, you would see the link in most countries.

    Watch how easy it is: Japan and the US have higher suicide rates. Japan and the US also have high cell phone and electronics usage, therefore there is a link between suicide rates and cell phone usage.
    Pretty bad example for your already awful point. There are already existing statistics (which you conveniently don't refer to) that correlate to and explain suicide rate in Japan (I live there, trust me), such as overwork, societal pressure, dissatisfaction with family structure, and a litany of other factors.

    Your lazy "well you can just make up a reason for stats argument" doesn't work when you...ignore the stats. This is a laughably bad argument and you know it. The link between guns and gun violence is way more definite than your weird trying to gotcha moment example of electronics and suicide.

    There are links between guns and gun violence.

    Do you have links between iPhones and suicide?

    No? Then pocket your desperately bad and hyperbolic comparisons.

  12. #417
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    Democrats thought/said they had a deal with Trump last night, but no deal.



    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-be-built.html

    Trump: 'No deal' yet with Pelosi and Schumer on DACA, wall will be built
    President Trump on Thursday denied reports that he struck a "deal" overnight with top Democrats to protect so-called “Dreamers,” while insisting “massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent.”

    Trump’s Twitter post was in response to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., announcing after a dinner meeting at the White House that they had "agreed to a plan to work out an agreement to protect our nation’s DREAMers from deportation."

    They also said "we would review border security measures that didn’t include building a wall."

    The president clarified Thursday morning that he intends for the wall to be built -- and while he wants to helps Dreamers, there's no deal yet.

    "No deal was made last night on DACA. Massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent. Would be subject to vote," Trump tweeted. "The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built."

    Last edited by SpecialFNK; 09-14-2017 at 11:03 AM.



  13. #418
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    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...daca-agreement

    Dems: Trump's tweets 'not inconsistent' with DACA agreement
    Democratic leaders on Thursday clarified that they did not reach a final deal with President Trump on protections for young immigrants protected by the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

    "President Trump's tweets are not inconsistent with the agreement reached last night," Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said in a statement.

    The Democratic leaders said there was "no final deal" reached during their meeting Wednesday with the president.

    But they added they agreed that the president would "support enshrining DACA protections into law, and encourage the House and Senate to act."

    "What remains to be negotiated are the details of border security, with a mutual goal of finalizing all details as soon as possible," their statement said.

    "While both sides agreed that the wall would not be any part of this agreement, the President made clear he intends to pursue it at a later time, and we made clear we would continue to oppose it."

    Schumer and Pelosi said both sides agreed the White House and Democratic leaders would work out a border security package.

    "Possible proposals were discussed including new technology, drones, air support, sensor equipment, rebuilding roads along the border and the bipartisan McCaul-Thompson bill.

    The new statement comes after the Democratic leaders said Wednesday night in a statement that they had agreed to "enshrine the protections of DACA into law quickly, and to work out a package of border security, excluding the wall, that’s acceptable to both sides.”

    Trump on Thursday morning rejected the statement, saying there was no deal made Wednesday night on DACA.

    "Massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent," Trump tweeted. "Would be subject to vote."

    In subsequent tweets, Trump defended DACA recipients, questioning why people would want to throw out "good, educated and accomplished young people."

    I don't think DACA people need to be deported, but there should be a path that includes them having to become legal American citizens. they should not get lifetime protection and remain illegal.

    I don't think Trump should back down on the wall. what is it that he is negotiating here. he is giving in to Democrats to help DACA, and he is giving in to Democrats that don't want the wall.



  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by browski234 View Post
    Pretty bad example for your already awful point. There are already existing statistics (which you conveniently don't refer to) that correlate to and explain suicide rate in Japan (I live there, trust me), such as overwork, societal pressure, dissatisfaction with family structure, and a litany of other factors.

    Your lazy "well you can just make up a reason for stats argument" doesn't work when you...ignore the stats. This is a laughably bad argument and you know it. The link between guns and gun violence is way more definite than your weird trying to gotcha moment example of electronics and suicide.

    There are links between guns and gun violence.

    Do you have links between iPhones and suicide?

    No? Then pocket your desperately bad and hyperbolic comparisons.
    Of course my example was a bit facetious. It wasn't meant to be taken literally.

    And Yes! The issues you point to as potential reasons for suicides in Japan are exactly the type of reasons I referred to a few pages back. Those types of reasons are what also attribute to the suicide rate in the US.

    I agree there is a link between guns, particularly illegal guns, and gun violence in the US. But there is no correlation between guns and more suicides in the US on a high level.

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I never said it wasn't a factor or possibly a factor. Just that there's no evidence or statistics which provide enough of a direct correlation to trample on gun ownership rights.

    Often times people look at stats and try to incorporate them into their beliefs. If there was a direct and conclusive link between gun rights and suicide rates, you would see the link in most countries.

    Watch how easy it is: Japan and the US have higher suicide rates. Japan and the US also have high cell phone and electronics usage, therefore there is a link between suicide rates and cell phone usage.
    There is plenty of evidence, I have shown you the evidence. You constantly try to obfuscate the evidence with your own personal beliefs.

    Speaking of how easy it is, it is indeed exceptionally easy to be ignorant of what you speak, you just did it! Your cellphone analogy, you realize research has shown that suicide rates are higher in developed and industrialized countries such as the US and Japan, and possible effects such as the stress of such a modernized lifestyle contributes to suicide.

    So in a very abstract way, yes cell phone usage (as part of a larger modernized society) could certainly affect suicide rates.

    If we restrict it the United States and gun violence, they found a direct correlation between gun ownership and suicide rates (link posted previously). Your answer to that was to go "Don't care"

    So if you don't care about the stats, of course you're going to say there are no stats that dispute your opinion.

    Watch how easy it is: There are no stats that support the effectiveness of Stop and Frisk, therefore we shouldn't do it.

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