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  1. #151
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    i still think the biggest issue was the thought process that shapiro used. the whole add age, patchwork approach,
    adding Upton, Grilli, Morales, Pearce, Happ, Bautista, Smith, Howell, Liriano since they got here.

    How much of that is responsible for where we are now? basically if you could magically wipe them off the books completely we'd be better off. I know Bomber will scream we were coming off a playoff appearance, but does that mean you stop considering the future of the franchise?

    not a single one of the players they acquired did anything to replenish the farm except Liriano (Ramirez, McGuire, and then Hernandez), and that was all because they were willing to eat salary. From where I sit, not one of them has a long term future with the franchise and we're worse off than we were 2 years ago when AA left

    Think about it, at present we're looking at a rebuild, if we had rebuilt then, wouldn't most of our core have had more value? you could have gotten a nice top 50 prospect or 2 for 1 year of Encarnacion or Bautista, Donaldson would have replenished the farm by himself...

    Those were the choices shapiro had in front of him when he took over....I leave it to you to decide for yourself whether one wild card season was worth the difference because if he had made the hard choices then, we'd likely be a playoff team NOW, and in much better shape going forward

    that choice had nothing to do with AA. It was all shapiro's. He could have started to build his Vision then and we'd be so much better, but he chose the path he's on, not AA.

    Maybe im wrong. maybe we make the playoffs next year with Shapiros decision to go for it next year too, but if not, when does it cease to be AA's fault and begin to be Shapiro's? or does he get a free pass forever?
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-14-2017 at 05:32 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    not a single one of the players they acquired did anything to replenish the farm except Liriano (Ramirez, McGuire, and then Hernandez), and that was all because they were willing to eat salary. From where I sit, not one of them has a long term future with the franchise and we're worse off than we were 2 years ago when AA left
    You are forgetting Gurriel, their draft picks and IFA signings. Plus name the last team to come off back to back playoff appearances that traded MLB talent for prospects. Its doesnt happen.

    Think about it, at present we're looking at a rebuild, if we had rebuilt then, wouldn't most of our core have had more value? you could have gotten a nice top 50 prospect or 2 for 1 year of Encarnacion or Bautista, Donaldson would have replenished the farm by himself...
    The farm system has already been replenished. When Shapiro took over it was in the 20's.. And the only publication to do a re-rank after the draft/IFA/TDL they are just outside of the top 10 (11th) and that was only after 2 drafts and 2 IFA signing periods. You dont need to trade major league talent to replenish the farm system and most good teams can do it without especially if you want a sustainable winner. Boston, LA, and Washington. Even the Yankees did so well because they had two pieces in their farm already that became studs (Sanchez and Judge) might include Houston too.

    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/246166...-farm-systems/

  3. #153
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    Agreed Jays have really not built up their farm every well over the last decade. The only true studs we have had are Stroman, Sanchez and Osuna. Pillar is there as well. Syndergaard would have been an amazing piece right now if we didnt go all in in 2012 (though he's been hurt this year but would have helped us in 2018 with another elite arm).

    Anyways Im a big proponent these days of building from the farm, especially the Jays who have a hard time attracting top tier free agents. Even the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers core have been largely guys they built from within/younger players they acquired. And how many teams get burned signing older players to longer deals and they just want out... everyone from Miggy to Pujols to on the Jays with Tulo and Martin... old guys who just clog payrolls and underperform and/or sit on the DH for long-time.

    I would rather build from within. And once these guys have played in Toronto they like to stay generally (you see it with all Toronto teams from Demar and Kyle in Toronto to Bats and Edwin who wanted to test the market but wanted to stay eventually but we had already signed Morales). Attracting top guys who have never lived here is hard.

    So yeah I like to slow approach. We saw two fun playoff teams but I think realistically it's time we start to re-build form within -- and it won't be long, maybe 2-3 years until we see a bigger crop of these guys come up from Vlad, Bo, Alford, Zeuch, Pearson, Warmoth, Reid-Foley, Pentecost, etc... I would just give it time and see how it works...some of them will materialize and some won't... but then I would attract free agents and build when some of these guys come up and form a core.

    Right now we have no core except Stroman, Sanchez and Osuna -- 3 guys Jays built from within. Donaldson is our only true core guy from the outside but now he's 32 and I would not re-sign him to a long-term deal that we will regret at 35 we have like Tulo and such... I would love to get a Bryce Harper or Manny Machado but thats not realistic .. so I say build from within and let's see....
    Last edited by Sanyo; 09-14-2017 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillipmike View Post
    You are forgetting Gurriel, their draft picks and IFA signings. Plus name the last team to come off back to back playoff appearances that traded MLB talent for prospects. Its doesnt happen.



    The farm system has already been replenished. When Shapiro took over it was in the 20's.. And the only publication to do a re-rank after the draft/IFA/TDL they are just outside of the top 10 (11th) and that was only after 2 drafts and 2 IFA signing periods. You dont need to trade major league talent to replenish the farm system and most good teams can do it without especially if you want a sustainable winner. Boston, LA, and Washington. Even the Yankees did so well because they had two pieces in their farm already that became studs (Sanchez and Judge) might include Houston too.

    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/246166...-farm-systems/
    much of that ranking is on the basis of AA'S DRAFTS not shapiros however, since Vlad was an AA signee

    and youre wrong about Judge and Sanchez they were far from sure things Sanchez was demoted after making the team out of spring training last year and Judge hit 179 and struck out 42 times in 84 at bats last year. Youre only saying that because they did pan out.

    the facts are that from their trades of Miller, Chapman, McCann, Beltran, Wilson, Gamel and Pazos the Yankees added 13 prospects who were top 20 prospects on their former teams system.... thats what makes their system so good, they could afford to trade for Sonny Gray because they couldnt protect all of their prospects on the 40 man roster anyway, so rather than lose them in the rule 5 draft for nothing, they traded a few.

    our ranking is mostly made up of Guerrero, Bichette, and Alford. John Manuel of Baseball America, said before the Gray trade that the Yankees had 50-55 prospects who would be on other teams top 30 if they werent on the Yankees.... so thats why its important to understand that our competition is going to get better. while our core ages out we're falling behind
    ,
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-14-2017 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #155
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    Changes For 2018

    Sign Otani

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    much of that ranking is on the basis of AA'S DRAFTS not shapiros however, since Vlad was an AA signee

    and youre wrong about Judge and Sanchez they were far from sure things Sanchez was demoted after making the team out of spring training last year and Judge hit 179 and struck out 42 times in 84 at bats last year. Youre only saying that because they did pan out.

    the facts are that from their trades of Miller, Chapman, McCann, Beltran, Wilson, Gamel and Pazos the Yankees added 13 prospects who were top 20 prospects on their former teams system.... thats what makes their system so good, they could afford to trade for Sonny Gray because they couldnt protect all of their prospects on the 40 man roster anyway, so rather than lose them in the rule 5 draft for nothing, they traded a few.

    our ranking is mostly made up of Guerrero, Bichette, and Alford. John Manuel of Baseball America, said before the Gray trade that the Yankees had 50-55 prospects who would be on other teams top 30 if they werent on the Yankees.... so thats why its important to understand that our competition is going to get better. while our core ages out we're falling behind
    ,
    Why cant it be both? When Vladdy was brought into our system it was all AA but development plays a huge role too which Shapiro's regime has done a great job. Vladdy was a top 100 spec and became a top 5 one in less than 2 years under the Shapiro regime. Other AA draftees seemed to have had a resurgence under the Shapiro development regime; Jansen, Pentecost, Ramirez, Borucki, Olivares come to mind.

    Shapiro isnt going to have success without the AA pieces that were left and AA wasnt going to have success without the pieces Riccardi left like Bautista, Edwin, Halladay, Romero, Cecil, Marcum, League, Jannsen, Alvarez - most who thrived under AA's development.

    Wasnt saying that Judge and Sanchez were sure things just that the Yankees had the luck for them to come out of nowhere. You have to have these guys first to have the develop and have an impact for you. Just like AA had Bautista, EE, Cecil, Janssen, and Romero which his coach staff was able to take to the next level.

    We arent "falling behind" as our system is close to top 10. It will help keep the pipeline of young talent coming in. In 2018 it might only be guys like Hernandez, Urena, Jansen, and Ramirez AND MAYBE guys like Alford, Borucki, and Gurriel. But 2019 could see some variation of Vladdy, Bichette, and Warmoth. The cheap talent is coming, thanks to AA and Shapiro's staff.
    Last edited by phillipmike; 09-15-2017 at 09:08 AM.

  7. #157
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    Pearson you could add to that 2019 group too. I'd say they done great in the two drafts so far from top guys like Bo-Pearson-Warmoth-Zurich to guys like lower down like Noda-Adams-Tice-Louge. Maybe some of the lower guys end up being nothing but a lot of very good years by some late rounds in the last two years.

  8. #158
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    In just going by what the experts say, which is that our ranking is based on prime prospects not on the depth of the system. What that means is we may be 11th because of Vlad and Bichette but beyond that our system isn't that strong. We are fine 1-6 but teams like Atlanta and the Yankees are fine 1-30.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-15-2017 at 10:33 AM.

  9. #159
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    That's not the point though, the point is that their so incredibly deep. During the Gray negotiations Keith Law reported that the A's were pushing hard for CF Esteban Florial. He is their #22 prospect. Law said that he and Vlad Guerrero were the 2 most impressive prospects he's seen this year.

    So if their #22 is right there with our #1. That scares me. Being the #11 system sounds nice but it means nothing when guys like Law, Sickels and Manuel are saying our chief competition goes 50-55 deep.

    We've already seen what Judge and Sanchez and Severino and Chad Green have done this year, if there's more coming like that and they say there are, we are in trouble.

    Cashman said he gave up 4 top 100's in the Gray and Frazier deals because he couldn't protect them all on the 40 Man roster so he'd lose them for nothing. That shows just how deep they are.

    You should check out John Manuel over at minor league ball, he rates by Grade, last I saw we had 14 prospects rated C+ or better, the Yankees had 31. So that #11 ranking doesn't tell the whole story. that mostly on Vlad, Bichette, and Alford. There's still a lot of work to be done before we're a top System
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-15-2017 at 10:51 AM.

  10. #160
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    Well once the new prospect reports come out I'd imagine we see an improvement in depth just like last season. When all these write ups were done that was before Pearson, Warmoth, Adams had really any playing time. I'm saying the depth is better because many players had great years. The reason why the system isn't a top 5 farm is all due to the lack of arms and bad years by Greene, SRF, Harris, Maese these guys all took a step back and hurt the rankings even with the big jump overall.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceUpperCut View Post
    Well once the new prospect reports come out I'd imagine we see an improvement in depth just like last season. When all these write ups were done that was before Pearson, Warmoth, Adams had really any playing time. I'm saying the depth is better because many players had great years. The reason why the system isn't a top 5 farm is all due to the lack of arms and bad years by Greene, SRF, Harris, Maese these guys all took a step back and hurt the rankings even with the big jump overall.
    Lance every team can say that. The Yankees signed 4 of the top 50 international prospects, no one else signed more than 2. And their top 2 Draft picks were both rated in the top 30 of the draft (one Clarke Schmidt, was top 10, but he fell because he was known to need Tommy John surgery) So it not like we're the only ones adding good prospects

    Ben Badler over at baseball America covers that in great detail. Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus each put out great guides I buy every year. Just because I used to play fantasy baseball, and it paid to know my prospects.

    If you want p.m. Me your email and I'll send you a copy of last years. I literally have over 500 baseball books on my kindle
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-15-2017 at 11:18 AM.

  12. #162
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    Fire Gibby and the training staff, way to many injuries this year.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmlftw23 View Post
    Fire Gibby and the training staff, way to many injuries this year.
    injuries happen when youre the oldest team in the league and your DH slot is locked to a particular player there's nothing a manager or training staff can really do about that. that was particuliarly poor thought process in signing Morales who is old and cant really play a position. with our lineup you needed our better hitters in the lineup. you couldnt DH them without putting morales on the bench. josh had even mentioned that as being one reason he got hurt early in the year, trying to play the through an injury

    Gibby has his flaws but you cant really blame him for the players he's given to work with
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-15-2017 at 04:57 PM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    That's not the point though, the point is that their so incredibly deep. During the Gray negotiations Keith Law reported that the A's were pushing hard for CF Esteban Florial. He is their #22 prospect. Law said that he and Vlad Guerrero were the 2 most impressive prospects he's seen this year.

    So if their #22 is right there with our #1. That scares me. Being the #11 system sounds nice but it means nothing when guys like Law, Sickels and Manuel are saying our chief competition goes 50-55 deep.

    We've already seen what Judge and Sanchez and Severino and Chad Green have done this year, if there's more coming like that and they say there are, we are in trouble.

    Cashman said he gave up 4 top 100's in the Gray and Frazier deals because he couldn't protect them all on the 40 Man roster so he'd lose them for nothing. That shows just how deep they are.

    You should check out John Manuel over at minor league ball, he rates by Grade, last I saw we had 14 prospects rated C+ or better, the Yankees had 31. So that #11 ranking doesn't tell the whole story. that mostly on Vlad, Bichette, and Alford. There's still a lot of work to be done before we're a top System
    Yankees' system is deep because they gave up on last year and traded a bunch of guys for prospects.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    Lance every team can say that. The Yankees signed 4 of the top 50 international prospects, no one else signed more than 2. And their top 2 Draft picks were both rated in the top 30 of the draft (one Clarke Schmidt, was top 10, but he fell because he was known to need Tommy John surgery) So it not like we're the only ones adding good prospects

    Ben Badler over at baseball America covers that in great detail. Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus each put out great guides I buy every year. Just because I used to play fantasy baseball, and it paid to know my prospects.



    If you want p.m. Me your email and I'll send you a copy of last years. I literally have over 500 baseball books on my kindle
    Read the newest Cobb book? Terrible beauty it's called.



    Tulo for player/coach.
    How much does thors injury help your opinion of dickey trade as now it's more like they got 5 years of Thor instead of 6 or whatever it was

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