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  1. #136
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    ^ I didn't always care for twitchy's manner but someone needs to take a leadership role in this forum before it is too late. How much time you got [emoji4]

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    ^ I didn't always care for twitchy's manner but someone needs to take a leadership role in this forum before it is too late. How much time you got [emoji4]

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Probably as much as you

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    It also doesn't mean they don't care for the product on the field, or that the product on the field isn't ultimately beneficial for the long term interest in their business. It is just a statement of priority. In an ideal world I'm sure they strive for both.

    I think what is frustrating with the constant give and take among posters this season is that so much of the macro level information on ownership is agreed upon. Some want to get the pitchforks out in response to it, others have been conditioned enough to see it as an unchanging reality.

    It is smaller details about management decisions and best direction of the team given these priorities that gets disagreed upon which always leads back to this same discussion. But because poster disagreed initially (or even historically) it almost seems people look to be oppositional at times and assumptions get made.
    Pebloemer, honestly I only say it because having seen the team i grew up following basically compromised by an ownership that i have no respect for (the wilpons) and now seeing my adopted team being competitively mismanaged in such a manner i feel honor bound to point it out. maybe if it werent for my financial career I wouldnt let it bother me as much, but It does. i cannot be as passionate about the game i love and ignore it.
    i literally became a blue jay fan because of that. i came in here and seeing the honest intelligent discussion, and the way the team was run, under AA that I adopted the Jays

    you guys think im shapiro's biggest detractor, but im 10x more critical of fred wilpon. he actually stopped going on new york sports talk radio because of me, because I asked him factual questions that he could not honestly answer without lying. in effect I outed him for his financial duplicity. He didnt like having the fact that he used Mets operating revenues to pay his personal debts (the madoff judgment). after I started that a short time later Howard Magdal wrote a book on the subject and wilpon had to finally admit that he had indeed done that.

    most fans dont have access to or interest in the financial machinations of their teams, and yet if they did their attitudes would be entirely different. Our sports teams are a public trust, we devote much of our time and entertainment resources to them. so I speak out when i see the hipocracy
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 09-06-2017 at 12:56 AM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    Pebloemer, honestly I only say it because having seen the team i grew up following basically compromised by an ownership that i have no respect for (the wilpons) and now seeing my adopted team being competitively mismanaged in such a manner i feel honor bound to point it out. maybe if it werent for my financial career I wouldnt let it bother me as much, but It does. i cannot be as passionate about the game i love and ignore it.
    i literally became a blue jay fan because of that. i came in here and seeing the honest intelligent discussion, and the way the team was run, under AA that I adopted the Jays

    you guys think im shapiro's biggest detractor, but im 10x more critical of fred wilpon. he actually stopped going on new york sports talk radio because of me, because I asked him factual questions that he could not honestly answer without lying. in effect I outed him for his financial duplicity. He didnt like having the fact that he used Mets operating revenues to pay his personal debts (the madoff judgment). after I started that a short time later Howard Magdal wrote a book on the subject and wilpon had to finally admit that he had indeed done that.

    most fans dont have access to or interest in the financial machinations of their teams, and yet if they did their attitudes would be entirely different. Our sports teams are a public trust, we devote much of our time and entertainment resources to them. so I speak out when i see the hipocracy
    Fair enough. It devolves into a much larger discussion about the nature of sports business. And even within that, there are stark differences between privately owned teams (which all have their wn way of doing business) and corporately owned teams. I'm not at all familiar with the Wilpons of present or past. I do think most blue jays fans have been conditioned by the corporate business structure of all Toronto based sports teams. It is pretty consistent. It is all we've really had for quite some time.

    I mean, we can argue whether it is "right" or "wrong" endlessly. Those who argue the validity of it are probably doing so half-heartedly because they've simply accepted it as reality, not so much because they want to be loud and proud defenders of big business. While I assume most in these forums have relative youth on their side, I'm sure there are also those that remember the last legacy of private ownership with the Leafs which spanned a couple decades and is seen as the darkest times in their history (the Harold Ballard years). There are some truly awful owners in sports still (perhaps the Wilpons fit that category? I don't know enough about them). I don't really see Rogers as good or bad. I can make sense of why they do what they do, and I don't think they've limited management in a way that makes them unable to compete within the MLB's system.

    Out of curiosity, prior to the Shapiro and Atkins hire, they were rumoured to be trying to get Dan Duquette and Kenny Williams? Would either of those hires produced less suspicion?

  5. #140
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    Both would have been good choices as they are both seen as scouting and development GMs as opposed to bean counters. Williams as a former player and Duquette as a long time scout and right hand man to the great Harry Dalton, who built the Great Orioles teams of the mid to late 60's. each of them had scouting backgrounds and worked their way up holding various positions learning the ropes as it were.

    You make a great point though. One which I hadn't considered til you asked that. I do have a bias towards Gm's of the hands on variety, those who have scouted and worked their way up in the game. It's funny since I am an Economics and Accounting person having degrees in both. What this means is if I owned a team, I wouldn't hire myself as a GM. That's funny!!!

    But it is true if I needed a CEO I would hire someone like myself, but as a GM I would much rather have a guy with a scouting and multifaceted front office experience as my GM. The game today is too complex to just have a financial guy making the critical decisions in athletic endeavors. That's why Lamourello is so smart, he has Kyle Dubas who has extensive scouting experience to balance things out. Lou is a manager type, he oversees the whole. But has qualified people advising him.

    Thanks for the great question. I'd have never have realized my own intrinsic bias if you hadn't asked.

    But you are right, Kenny Williams or Dan Duquette would have gotten a thumbs up from me definitely.

    As far as Wilpon goes, if you want p.m. your email, and I'll send you the Wilpons folly ebook that goes into great detail how they've used the Mets franchise to support themselves at the detriment of the team for years. Read that and you'll see why I think Rogers is just as bad.

  6. #141
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    I think Jays disappointed so much this year not just because of the injuries, all teams have them. But no depth due to previous regime trading off anything decent in the farm system. Takes 2 or 3 years to re-stock the system.

    We lose a Happ to injury we have to call up a Valdez, lose Russell Martin call up Maille, lose Donaldson call up a Coghlan, and so on and so on. Next year, or 2019 at the latest, lose a key player can call up a Vlad Jr., or Ryan Borocki, or a Jansen/Pentecost. Guys who at least have MLB skill

  7. #142
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    i know it will never happen but it would be sorta sweet if Tulo decided he was tired of all the injuries and walked away. would that get us off the hook for the salary? i'm not sure how that works. again, super unlikely to happen but that would be a blessing IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #143
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    Santos gets a save ?

    How's that a save situation

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    i know it will never happen but it would be sorta sweet if Tulo decided he was tired of all the injuries and walked away. would that get us off the hook for the salary? i'm not sure how that works. again, super unlikely to happen but that would be a blessing IMO.
    If he walked away then yes he forfeits his salary but at least I dont think he's stupid enough to walk away from $54 mil for next 3 years...

  10. #145
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    yea he could be the most miserable man on the planet, hes still staying to collect that cheque

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie View Post
    I think Jays disappointed so much this year not just because of the injuries, all teams have them. But no depth due to previous regime trading off anything decent in the farm system. Takes 2 or 3 years to re-stock the system.

    We lose a Happ to injury we have to call up a Valdez, lose Russell Martin call up Maille, lose Donaldson call up a Coghlan, and so on and so on. Next year, or 2019 at the latest, lose a key player can call up a Vlad Jr., or Ryan Borocki, or a Jansen/Pentecost. Guys who at least have MLB skill
    What a ridiculous comment. Do you think any team in baseball has depth at every position to step in? Even the Dodgers with thier enormous payroll still have holes due to injury. So when Donaldson is gone after next year, and his replacement gets injured, who are you calling up exactly?

    Wake up man, the previous regime built the farm twice, and used that capital to go for it. They failed unfortunately, deal with it. Last I checked, I'll take winning the show and then sucking, over being a perennially good team. Ask Seattle fans how they feel about having the greatest regular season ever?

    Oh yeah, left the cupboard bare with the best hitting prospect in baseball. Lol

  12. #147
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    ...as an aside:

    It seems like this era has accelerated so fast that people have become more infatuated with the future rather than the here and now. A number 1 farm team is NOT better than a last place farm (that the Jays were not) following 2 ALCS appearances. And winning the WS? Give me a lot place farm system for the next 5 years.

    Winning is what it is all about!

  13. #148
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    Jan 2009
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    Changes For 2018

    You win by have a good farm nowadays. It's a young man game now more then ever and players are so pricey you can't just fill every position with FA and highly paid vets.

  14. #149
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    You need both, it's not either or. The focus is on the future because everyone and his brother knew the major league product was reaching it's best before date rapidly and the upper minors were bare. Nobody will be happy with a ****** major league team for any length of time. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #150
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    Jan 2009
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    11,154

    Changes For 2018

    Obviously you need to both. Even the teams with the huge payrolls like the Yanks and Dodgers realized how important young players are and now they the Seagers, Bellingers and Judges of the league leading the way.

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