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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    He wins because you post his tweets somewhere. He's just another Skip Bayless.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Its a worse pick than your traditional CB or LB who busts in the 3rd or 4th round because there is still quality talent at the 59th pick. If you wanted Aguayo, there were ways to acquire him without using that high a draft pick.
    Agreed. I think that the position involved is what makes this look bad as opposed to just being a bust.

    PROCESSING

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Considering how much of a revolving door the kicker position is and how most don't go till much later in the draft or aren't even drafted at all, of course its a story when a kicker is taken in the 2nd round and cut a year into his tenure. There is a reason why kickers are traditionally taken where they are regardless of statistics.

    Its a worse pick than your traditional CB or LB who busts in the 3rd or 4th round because there is still quality talent at the 59th pick. If you wanted Aguayo, there were ways to acquire him without using that high a draft pick.
    10 kickers in NFL history have been drafted higher than Aguayo, including Hanson in 92, Janikowski in 2000 and Nugent in 05. Hell Ray Guy, the only HOF Punter was a first round pick. Talented prospects get taken high, Aguayo was a great prospect who wasn't as good in the pros.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Agreed. I think that the position involved is what makes this look bad as opposed to just being a bust.
    Who really should care? Taking a chance doing your own thing is wrong and doing what everyone else is doing is right? Belichick drafted a kicker in Round 4, nobody cared.

    I feel I've laid about a fairly substantial case on why it made sense, why it was historically justified and the sheer silliness of the Aguayo pick being ridiculed while other similar busts are completely unnoticed. You either take it or leave it.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwallstreet View Post
    Who really should care? Taking a chance doing your own thing is wrong and doing what everyone else is doing is right? Belichick drafted a kicker in Round 4, nobody cared.

    I feel I've laid about a fairly substantial case on why it made sense, why it was historically justified and the sheer silliness of the Aguayo pick being ridiculed while other similar busts are completely unnoticed. You either take it or leave it.
    I'm not saying that it wasn't justified at the time. I thought it was a good pick.

    The issue is if you pick someone this high you don't expect this to happen. It's a bust of a pick. Missing on almost any other position this high is brushed of because it happens normally. But a bust at kicker in round 2 isn't normal. Because specialists aren't normally picked that high.

    I'm sorry but saying "you shouldn't comment because it was justified at the time" isn't exactly the argument to take here. Or even "because of other trades we didn't give up much", or "the pick we gave up turned out to be a bust". Aguayo is/was a missed pick, and because he was a kicker people are going to comment.

    PROCESSING

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I'm not saying that it wasn't justified at the time. I thought it was a good pick.

    The issue is if you pick someone this high you don't expect this to happen. It's a bust of a pick. Missing on almost any other position this high is brushed of because it happens normally. But a bust at kicker in round 2 isn't normal. Because specialists aren't normally picked that high.

    I'm sorry but saying "you shouldn't comment because it was justified at the time" isn't exactly the argument to take here. Or even "because of other trades we didn't give up much", or "the pick we gave up turned out to be a bust". Aguayo is/was a missed pick, and because he was a kicker people are going to comment.
    And there's not even a Hard Knocks thread.

    It's on every forum, Twitter and other place. It's a joke what makes people care/not care about ****. People still criticize the Raiders to this day for Janikowski and he is the all time leader in points scored for the Raiders.

    It's people like Trey Wingo who call it the worst draft pick of all-time that really piss me off. Just sick of the whole thing and all the negativity mostly by uninformed idiots.

  7. #22
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    Ok.....you want people to not talk about the fact that a kicker was picked in the second year and cut after one season? Especially one that you traded up to take? Good luck with that.

    You justified why the pick was made...so can everyone else.

    It sounds more like you are being sensitive because it's your team rather than looking at it for what it is.

    And you're more than welcome to make a Hard Knocks thread. The last few we had included almost 0 discussion and I think there wasn't even one last year.

    PROCESSING

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwallstreet View Post
    The trade was basically nothing, so that shouldn't matter. They traded down in Round 1 from 9 to 11 and still got the guy they wanted. They used the pick from that to move up because there were some teams who could possibly take a kicker ahead of them. Essentially used 1st and 3rd on Hargreaves and Aguayo.

    There have been other, bigger busts in Tampa since Bo Jackson like WR Dexter Jackson

    Multiple Kickers have gobe higher thsn Aguayo and weren't the most accurate kicker in NCAA history. Hard to fault the thought process after 4 years of excellence.

    In 2015 we had Brindza and Barth, combined they missed 11 FGs and 3 XPs. That is 36 points left on the table. Aguayo on paper should have helped that.

    I wanted Aguayo that year in the 3rd or 4th round, obviously the later the better but that has risks. When they traded up we all thought it was for Vonn Bell, it was Aguayo. We were shocked but most wanted him a little later so not a huge deal.

    How many people in here know that the player Kansas City took with our 3rd rounder was CB KeiVarae Russell. Russell was cut September 14th 2016, never played a snap for them and is now fighting for a roster spot in Cincinnati. Nobody talks about that because it's not a kicker and isn't easy to laugh at I guess.

    A little sad that Hard Knocks doesn't have a thread in NFL forum but Aguayo being cut does. Every team misses, some much higher than 59, a miss is a miss regardless of position.
    Me, you said exactly what I was going to say.


    Yankees/Chiefs/Nets/Jayhawks


  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwallstreet View Post
    10 kickers in NFL history have been drafted higher than Aguayo, including Hanson in 92, Janikowski in 2000 and Nugent in 05. Hell Ray Guy, the only HOF Punter was a first round pick. Talented prospects get taken high, Aguayo was a great prospect who wasn't as good in the pros.
    And guys like John Lee, Russell Erxlebren, Steve Little, etc were busts. All the more reason that if you are going to draft a kicker that high, he better be your kicker for the next 15 years otherwise it goes down as an awful pick. That's why the last kicker taken that high was Nugent and a lot of people, including myself (a Jet fan), hated that pick that early.

    Given how fragile and replaceable even some of the best kickers can be (with few exceptions), it was foolish to draft a kicker that high.
    Last edited by metswon69; 08-13-2017 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Agreed. I think that the position involved is what makes this look bad as opposed to just being a bust.
    Yup. Like I said as a Jet fan I hated the Mike Nugent pick in 05'.

    Kickers who have great seasons come a dime a dozen.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yup. Like I said as a Jet fan I hated the Mike Nugent pick in 05'.

    Kickers who have great seasons come a dime a dozen.
    I'm not talking like that.

    Take my team. Senquez Golson was a second round pick 2 years ago. He's yet to play a game, has barely made it through 5 full practices without getting injured.

    Why does no one care?

    CBs bust all the time. Especially in the 1st and 2nd round.

    Aguyio is a kicker. Taken in the second. That's the first time that happened that high since '05. So what that guy does is going to be news anyways.

    But then you add together rarely high picked position, traded up for said player, bad first year, and cut in his second training camp....it's going to be news people talk about. And they will talk about possible worst pick ever because a 1st/2nd rounder isn't just cut one year in like this.

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  12. #27
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    Would people be okay with the pick if it was Justin Tucker, or hell, even someone like Dan Bailey and Stephen Gostkowski? That was the kind of player they were expecting to get. If my team didn't have a kicker I would be totally okay with drafting Justin Tucker in the 2nd round.

  13. #28
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    I think even if he wasn't as good as them this wouldn't be news.

    The reason it's news is it's a player taken in the second round cut one year into his career. The fact that he's a kicker is what makes it worse.

    PROCESSING

  14. #29
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    Not sure I understand the mentality that kickers are "worthless" in the draft. When you look at historical data you tend to see a lot of games lost or won in the regular season, let alone with the old NFL playoff rules of first score wins. My question is if you had vinitari from the pats, Gary Anderson or another high profile kicker where would you value them at? I can tell you as a Vikings fan when our offense was pathetic but walsh was money he won us games single handedly. Is it just the fact that each team only carries one? Does it create an over supply of kickers in the nfl that results in poor draft value? I'd be interested to see were Anderson, or another high profile kicker would actually be drafted at if you knew their career trajectory.

    While a kicker may bust it seems the general consensus is that a second round pick should be at least a serviceable starter to an NFL team. Do they bust? yes, but they also have the potential to make an impact on at least 2 of 3 downs on one side of the ball or other.

    What would it realistically take for an nfl team to consider a kicker in the middle of the first round?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky. View Post
    Would people be okay with the pick if it was Justin Tucker, or hell, even someone like Dan Bailey and Stephen Gostkowski? That was the kind of player they were expecting to get. If my team didn't have a kicker I would be totally okay with drafting Justin Tucker in the 2nd round.
    No. Janikowski has been great, but he was still a stupid pick in round 1. The 4 or 5 examples of good kickers in the first three rounds doesn't change the fact that good kickers are routinely found in late rounds or even udfa

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