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  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntresistheheat View Post
    I know how trades work! You obviously only looked at one page of rants. Iíve been posting for the past 2 weeks that we need a significant big change. Obviously I know we canít get rid of everyone because we have to have players that teams want. What I am saying is I donít care who we trade as long itís not Bam, Ellington, and JRICH. What I also said is that it donít matter if this team makes the playoffs because most of these players wonít be around anymore. So the playoffs experience really donít matter much to this team unless you are looking at other teams that want to look at their resume and say ďthis guy has playoff experienceĒ you are to concern on who is going to stay and I knew not to fall in love with a team that is just going to be relevant. Most of these guys wonít be here, itís been two years with this squad and I know they wonít go three years with this team. Thatís not Pat style. He just put this together on the fly because he failed in the offseason FA. Thereís a reason he sent out the message in the press conference that this team better play good because they all have tradable contracts. Obviously we all want a big name FA/superstar or a potential superstar player (which we donít have) so I was wishful thinking of getting players like PG13 and Cousins which we would of had to get significant pieces away to get those players. Now, PG13 is pipe dream because he isnít going anywhere but LA. It would take a lot of our role players/team to get pieces like those guys I mention....and yes, we did not get our 2-3 superstar players in free agency but pat sure tried and that should tell you that thats his style. So donít act like you knew something that non of us didnít because we are thinking like pat is thinking. Pat struck out but he put some pieces together that teams are going to look for to make a playoff push. Most of the contracts we have are very reasonable contacts to trade. Unfortunately, injuries are hurting us and we canít showcase most of these guys yet. If you misunderstood anything I wrote then ask me to clarify because you ainít talking to some little kid here. I may be all over the place with my post because I have 3 kids to deal and I try to post as fast as I can. So just to be clear....I donít care about making the playoffs because we are going no where with this team and most players wonít be here next year so why not Trade most of them to get something better back and I donít care about the pick either because I donít think we own a pick?
    You keep saying different things. First you say you know we can't get rid of everyone and then in the next sentence you say we're getting rid of most people so playoff experience doesn't matter. So which is it? Playoff experience doesn't only matter for other teams looking at getting players from us. Anyone that's here beyond this year would benefit from playoff experience. Saying otherwise is completely ridiculous.

    It hasn't been 2 years with this squad. We're not even to the mid-point of season #2 yet. We're talking about a team that since the mid-point of last year has a record of 49-28. The first half of last year the team had a bunch of injuries and needed to build some chemistry between all the new players. We got relatively healthy in the 2nd half and they learned to play together. This year they've still had a bunch of injuries but are still able to be at 19-17 and 7th in the East. They got better as the year went on last year and that's what's going to happen this year too.

    This team was not put together on the fly either. The year we lost Lebron now that team was put together on the fly with additions like Deng, McRoberts, and Granger. Riley had plans and had all of these players waiting for the plans to come together. Maybe not all of these guys would have been back if we had gotten someone like Hayward but these weren't just random players thrown together out of panic.

    I said it the entire off-season so I am going to say I told you so in regards to getting 2-3 big stars this off-season. It didn't happen then and nothing huge is going to happen now either. The expectations you have are so far off so you're always going to be disappointed with this team. With the exception of getting Lebron and Bosh, how many other really big moves have the Heat made in their entire history? I can think of only a few like trading for Mourning, Hardaway, Shaq, and maybe Dragic and Eddie Jones (if you consider those last two big moves). Those moves have happened over a period of 20+ years so it's not something that happens every year which you seem to act like it is.

  2. #737
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    All of this back and forth is totally pointless, ESPECIALLY if you think the HEAT will not be making any trades.

    There is a 99.9% likelihood the team trades multiple players.

    If you haven't realized yet, Miami will be one of highest payroll teams next season.

    At $149M, Miami is set to have a large luxury tax, in fact they project to be at least $20M over the tax line. Miami would end up owing $75M in luxury tax alone ($3.75:1 tax rate).

    The $149 would include Bosh, but even without him were set to pay the tax with a scrub roster before signing anyone or resigning existing guys (Ellington?).

    If you think Arison is willing to pay luxury when he wasn't willing to pay it during the Big 3 era when merchandise was flying off the shelf, we had 10+ national games on ABC/ESPN/TNT, and we were able to charge crackhead prices for front row seats to celebrities, then he sure isn't going to pay it now.

    The only thing up for debate IMO, is if the moves benefit the team or its instead a straight dump for nothing positive in exchange.
    Last edited by beasted86; 01-05-2018 at 11:38 AM.

  3. #738
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    Just to be clear, I'm not saying it now and never have said that there won't be any trades. I'm disputing the idea that we're going to trade away pretty much our whole team like has been suggested multiple times on here. The idea of trading away all the players Riley just signed or signed to extensions is ridiculous and won't happen. The idea that we're going to flip these players that are more or less role players that a lot of Heat fans don't seem to want for a super star is equally ridiculous.

    Too many people on here just don't have any patience. They're ready to just get rid of the entire team part way into the season after we went 30-11 in the 2nd half of last year with basically the same team. From what I saw, most people liked the J-Rich extension and thought it was a good deal when it was done. When he struggled out of the gate, people were quick to jump on him and say it was a bad deal and that he was no good. Now he's turned into maybe our best player. People also questioned the Olynyk signing and got even more worked up when he wasn't playing that well early on. He's been one of the biggest bright spots recently as it seems he's finding his place and figuring out his role and making some big contributions lately. There were also a lot of people on here that didn't like the Bam pick. Now people are seeing the potential that he has and the role he can play for the team going forward. Everyone just needs to relax a little, have some patience, and be more realistic with their expectations.

    If I'm going to be honest about trades, the person that I see as most likely to be traded at this point would be Whiteside. He's missed a ton of time with multiple injuries and seems like he just doesn't care that much a lot of the time when he's in the game. The effort just doesn't seem to be there and the attitude is getting worse. He's obviously also our highest paid player and we've seen what we have lately in Bam and Olynyk. It's going to be hard to find enough minutes for all 3 of them and Bam and Olynyk proved in Whiteside's absence that they deserve minutes.

  4. #739
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    Bro, itís been cleared what I said. I said that most of these guys wonít be here past next year and I donít care who they trade as long as itís not Bam, JRich, Ellington. I also mention that it would not benefit the heat if these guys gain playoffs experience because most of these guys wonít be here.....unless you want to sell a team that this player has playoff experience. That 30-11 second half team last year is not what you think. We are close to a .500 team right now and thatís what we were last year. Granted I know that injuries has a lot to do with it but you donít see anyone on this team to say ďwith this guy on our team we will be alrightĒ giving a bunch of role players like JJ, Whiteside, Dragic, and waiters that has been in the league for year and has had their fair chance (especially with the Heat) and to say give them a chance to come together is just plain dumb. These guys are what they are and they are not going to take us anywhere. As for our younger guys.....yes, they still have room to grow and make a great deal of impact for this team but if they need to be included in a trade with one of those starters then I would not even think twice. You also mention that we canít trade these players for all stars, superstar, a potential superstar is also something that obviously you havenít been paying attention to. Look what PG13 got traded for. What about Cousins? What about Melo? What about Jimmy Butler? I can keep going on if you like? You mean to tell me that we donít have those type of players that those teams got in return? (With the exception of picks that went to some of those teams) we got players that have starter minutes under their belt that can help fill a roster or even insert into a starting roll. I very aware that we can just trade the whole roster but even if we donít trade anyone this year we will still be a team trying to make it to the playoffs and losing to the first round to Boston and the first 4 top teams. If you think thatís Riley style, then think again.

  5. #740
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    Ok but on the flip side, what is your attachment to this roster?

    The team is not built to contend. The team does not have internal growth (young guys with high potential), and the team roster is expensive (see tax implications affecting repeater when we actually can contend).

    What's wrong with anyone talking about trading players if they think it will make the team better?

    I haven't been a fan of a complete roster overhaul unless we have a young star to build from the ground up around (IE: Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon). I have been a fan of cutting ties with Whiteside for Cousins though, all the way.

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntresistheheat View Post
    Bro, itís been cleared what I said. I said that most of these guys wonít be here past next year and I donít care who they trade as long as itís not Bam, JRich, Ellington. I also mention that it would not benefit the heat if these guys gain playoffs experience because most of these guys wonít be here.....unless you want to sell a team that this player has playoff experience. That 30-11 second half team last year is not what you think. We are close to a .500 team right now and thatís what we were last year. Granted I know that injuries has a lot to do with it but you donít see anyone on this team to say ďwith this guy on our team we will be alrightĒ giving a bunch of role players like JJ, Whiteside, Dragic, and waiters that has been in the league for year and has had their fair chance (especially with the Heat) and to say give them a chance to come together is just plain dumb. These guys are what they are and they are not going to take us anywhere. As for our younger guys.....yes, they still have room to grow and make a great deal of impact for this team but if they need to be included in a trade with one of those starters then I would not even think twice. You also mention that we canít trade these players for all stars, superstar, a potential superstar is also something that obviously you havenít been paying attention to. Look what PG13 got traded for. What about Cousins? What about Melo? What about Jimmy Butler? I can keep going on if you like? You mean to tell me that we donít have those type of players that those teams got in return? (With the exception of picks that went to some of those teams) we got players that have starter minutes under their belt that can help fill a roster or even insert into a starting roll. I very aware that we can just trade the whole roster but even if we donít trade anyone this year we will still be a team trying to make it to the playoffs and losing to the first round to Boston and the first 4 top teams. If you think thatís Riley style, then think again.
    Bro! You need to use some paragraphs because it's almost impossible to follow your all over the place ramblings when it's written like this.

    You're right, 30-11 over half a season is nothing. It was all luck. That's such a load of crap. You just don't want to think this team has that potential so you try to down play that level of success over half a season. If it's nothing why doesn't every team go 30-11?

    The stars you mentioned were traded for what they were because they were disgruntled for one reason or another. In the case of Cousins and Melo they're both head cases that seem to be cancer on whatever team they're on. That's not the kind of guy I want on the Heat. We already have a semi-head case in Whiteside.

    In the case of Butler he was causing drama within the locker room and so they decided there was no fixing that. The Wolves gave up alot for him in young talent (multiple recent 1st round picks) and their first round pick this year. The Thunder gave up Oladipo who's better than anyone the Heat have to offer for PG13 who they were guaranteed to lose. So unless you want a headcase/cancer type player or someone on an expiring contact who could just leave you're not getting a star for that cheap.

    You act like you know Riley but it seems like you don't accurately remember the number of big trades and big free agent signing he's made in the 20+ years he's been with the Heat. You act like it happens every year or multiple times a year but that's not the case. Don't worry, when most of this current team is back again next year, I'll be back to say I told you so again.
    Last edited by RCarlson85; 01-05-2018 at 11:50 PM.

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Ok but on the flip side, what is your attachment to this roster?

    The team is not built to contend. The team does not have internal growth (young guys with high potential), and the team roster is expensive (see tax implications affecting repeater when we actually can contend).

    What's wrong with anyone talking about trading players if they think it will make the team better?

    I haven't been a fan of a complete roster overhaul unless we have a young star to build from the ground up around (IE: Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon). I have been a fan of cutting ties with Whiteside for Cousins though, all the way.
    I don't have any particular attachment to this roster more than any other we've had. I did really enjoy the run last year and believe this team can finish in the top half of the East. You don't luck into a 30-11 record. That may have been more than this team is capable of but they're better than their current record. The reality is likely somewhere in between. Playing somewhere in between the 2nd half of last year and what they've done so far this year is good enough for 4th in the East where they can get HCA and avoid playing one of the top 3 teams in the first round.

    The reality is that as long as LeBron is in the East (and as long as the Celtics can sustain success with their roster), no other team is getting out of the East and that's not even mentioning who would be coming out of the West. For most of the Heat's history they haven't been a true championship caliber team. Beyond Lebron's tenure, a couple Shaq/Wade years and maybe a couple teams in the Zo/Hardaway years the Heat have just been a middle of the pack playoff team. I've still enjoyed the years when that's the reality and I'm still enjoying this year.

    Being a championship caliber team is not a reality every year. I feel like some fans that post on here don't know what it was like before the LeBron years. It just gets really old to hear fans talk about the current team as if it's the first time we've ever not had a championship level team. If that's the expectation every year and what they need to have in order to get some enjoyment out of the season then they should probably find another team to root for.

    Not saying this is true of you but it's the impression I get from multiple people that post on here regularly.
    Last edited by RCarlson85; 01-05-2018 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCarlson85 View Post
    I don't have any particular attachment to this roster more than any other we've had. I did really enjoy the run last year and believe this team can finish in the top half of the East. You don't luck into a 30-11 record. That may have been more than this team is capable of but they're better than their current record. The reality is likely somewhere in between. Playing somewhere in between the 2nd half of last year and what they've done so far this year is good enough for 4th in the East where they can get HCA and avoid playing one of the top 3 teams in the first round.

    The reality is that as long as LeBron is in the East (and as long as the Celtics can sustain success with their roster), no other team is getting out of the East and that's not even mentioning who would be coming out of the West. For most of the Heat's history they haven't been a true championship caliber team. Beyond Lebron's tenure, a couple Shaq/Wade years and maybe a couple teams in the Zo/Hardaway years the Heat have just been a middle of the pack playoff team. I've still enjoyed the years when that's the reality and I'm still enjoying this year.

    Being a championship caliber team is not a reality every year. I feel like some fans that post on here don't know what it was like before the LeBron years. It just gets really old to hear fans talk about the current team as if it's the first time we've ever not had a championship level team. If that's the expectation every year and what they need to have in order to get some enjoyment out of the season then they should probably find another team to root for.

    Not saying this is true of you but it's the impression I get from multiple people that post on here regularly.
    I once felt like you do, in that I was satisfied with a competitive team that didn't actually contend. Unlike few I think a contender is built on a great foundation of a winning culture, and the tanking mindset is difficult to overcome. But I've realized I rather watch a "brand" of basketball rather than play for the result.

    If the team had a true identity, I might find myself satisfied watching the HEAT to become another Raptors or Hawks (with the exception of this year). By this I mean watch the HEAT become a 2-5 seed for several years in a row with no real shot at a championship.

    Right now Miami has nothing to rely on. They aren't a good offensive team, they aren't a good defensive team. Their pace says they aren't an uptempo team, but they surely don't thrive as a half court team. They are a 10ish ranked 3PT team. They have 8 guys averaging double digits, but everyone is less than 17 PPG. They are poor at getting to the FT line.

    This team is in no mans land and built to crumble in the playoffs with no shot at an upset.

  9. #744
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    It's not that I don't want to be a championship team again, I'm just not going to act like the sky is falling if they're only a mid-level playoff team some seasons.

    If there are a couple moves that could be made to help take the next step I'm absolutely in favor of that. I'm just not going to expect it and put all my hopes (and possible enjoyment) for this season in that basket. I'm more realistic in what I expect to happen. I'm not going to bail or stop watching because it's not looking like a championship season.

    I agree with your assessment and that's why the team can be frustrating and inconsistent right now. I think they have some nice pieces but clearly no go to guy. I think the best thing to do is try to trade Whiteside to get a piece like that. He's likely our most valuable asset (maybe Dragic) while also not helping us as much so far this season.

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    I once felt like you do, in that I was satisfied with a competitive team that didn't actually contend. Unlike few I think a contender is built on a great foundation of a winning culture, and the tanking mindset is difficult to overcome. But I've realized I rather watch a "brand" of basketball rather than play for the result.

    If the team had a true identity, I might find myself satisfied watching the HEAT to become another Raptors or Hawks (with the exception of this year). By this I mean watch the HEAT become a 2-5 seed for several years in a row with no real shot at a championship.

    Right now Miami has nothing to rely on. They aren't a good offensive team, they aren't a good defensive team. Their pace says they aren't an uptempo team, but they surely don't thrive as a half court team. They are a 10ish ranked 3PT team. They have 8 guys averaging double digits, but everyone is less than 17 PPG. They are poor at getting to the FT line.

    This team is in no mans land and built to crumble in the playoffs with no shot at an upset.
    Something to monitor is our recent style of play post-Waiters-Injury with James Johnson back as well too....Obviously a small sample size but needless to say its something to keep an eye on

    The past two games we've had an ast% of 65.4% over our season average of 56.9% , Dragic seems to be over his elbow injury, we're playing more motion offense and less drive-and-kick, the frontcourt of JJ/Olynyk has been a terror with more space to operate and a slowed-down half-court execution style basketball which is conducive for the post-season brand

    I think with Dragic getting healthy, Olynyk being comfortable with JJ being back, no gimpy Waiters, the emergence of JRich and a high-3pt-usage shooting Ellington has this team looking for a new identity, and so far its been fun to watch

    I'm interested to see if this continues but if Waiters gets his ankle surgery and Mcgruder can come back sooner than later with this new style of play than we have the makings of a top 5 seed.....But Waiters can't be back in the picture, his ankle has clearly been a problem.......The lineup of Dragic, Ellington, JRich, JJ, Olynyk has been SO fun to watch, a gimpy Waiters would only hurt us now

    I'll remain skeptical but I'm intrigued with a renewed hope

  11. #746
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    Waiters has clearly been a hindrance so far this season with his gimpy ankle. It's unfortunate that he didn't just have surgery this past off-season. He definitely should not come back until he's fully healthy because if he's not he won't help.

    I'm looking forward to McGruder coming back. I think he'll definitelty be a valuable contributor once he's back.

    It seems to me like the recent turnaround that you're talking about corresponds with no Winslow and either no Whiteside or less Whiteside (plus no gimpy Waiters obviously). If the Heat are going to look to make a deal or two, those should be the two they focus on trading because they seem to play better without them.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    I once felt like you do, in that I was satisfied with a competitive team that didn't actually contend. Unlike few I think a contender is built on a great foundation of a winning culture, and the tanking mindset is difficult to overcome. But I've realized I rather watch a "brand" of basketball rather than play for the result.

    If the team had a true identity, I might find myself satisfied watching the HEAT to become another Raptors or Hawks (with the exception of this year). By this I mean watch the HEAT become a 2-5 seed for several years in a row with no real shot at a championship.

    Right now Miami has nothing to rely on. They aren't a good offensive team, they aren't a good defensive team. Their pace says they aren't an uptempo team, but they surely don't thrive as a half court team. They are a 10ish ranked 3PT team. They have 8 guys averaging double digits, but everyone is less than 17 PPG. They are poor at getting to the FT line.

    This team is in no mans land and built to crumble in the playoffs with no shot at an upset.
    Dead on. I was going to post something similar, I was going to define it solely as them not having an identity, or a meaningful identity...but yeah, that pretty much is the issue. I don't see a throwback to Heat culture of lock tight defense, or anything new that's engaging. I really find the "intangibles" argument to be annoying, but it's relevant here. I think that's what's frustrating to the fanbase, because you can't really rally behind an identity crisis.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCarlson85 View Post
    Waiters has clearly been a hindrance so far this season with his gimpy ankle. It's unfortunate that he didn't just have surgery this past off-season. He definitely should not come back until he's fully healthy because if he's not he won't help.

    I'm looking forward to McGruder coming back. I think he'll definitelty be a valuable contributor once he's back.

    It seems to me like the recent turnaround that you're talking about corresponds with no Winslow and either no Whiteside or less Whiteside (plus no gimpy Waiters obviously). If the Heat are going to look to make a deal or two, those should be the two they focus on trading because they seem to play better without them.
    Its funny cause Whiteside actually had back-to-back games where he had 4 ast than 2 ast, than nothing tonight ha....Thats just not his style and it seems like we're trending that way.....during the Magic game he hit a couple of back-doors so he's "capable" of doing it but when Whiteside gets the ball down low he usually gets tunnel vision

    I think the this month will be HUGE for the direction of this franchise....Does Waiters get ankle surgery? Do we change our style of offense? If so, does Whiteside and/or Winslow fit into that style? Trades?

    With Olynyk and James Johnson getting more time at frontcourt positions, its clear we like our big-men to be able to handle, pass and shoot respectably....And Bam is so freaking mobile and active we need that type of energy....Whiteside unfortunately has a knee issue that he has to wear a brace for and hes just not moving well yet....At this point Olynyk, JJ should get 30-35 min, Whiteside 20-25 min and Bam 15-20 min

    If thats the case for the rest of the way, does $26 million justify Whiteside? Or can we get potentially another scorer, wing, ball handler etc to help this team now and in the future

    Honestly, I have no clue but these past two games have been great watches
    Last edited by All-In; 01-06-2018 at 01:26 AM.

  14. #749
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    What would we think of a Whiteside for Nikola Mirotic deal?

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expert327 View Post
    What would we think of a Whiteside for Nikola Mirotic deal?
    Not happening, he isn't good enough to lose the value that Whiteside can bring when Miami is clicking, Whiteside isn't going anywhere unless a Super Star is coming back to Miami in a trade.







    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    As a rookie Micheal Beasley averaged 13.9pts per game on .472 shooting. Do you know how many times Kobe Bryant or Tracy Mcgrady shot at that percent or better? Never in there whole careers. If Beas can be what he was when he was a rookie (he won't hell be better) then the heat are coming away with another steal.

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