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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    well, you have my vote.
    Lol, well that's 1 vote down! 54 million 999 thousands 999 more to go to become President!

  2. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I saw it and addressed it earlier. That person is the exception not the rule. The union protects far more good teachers than it helps bad teachers (administrators too).

    I'm sorry but I don't believe having all the teachers negotiate individually is going to help. The power in negotiation comes from leverage and all the teachers as leverage is far greater than all the individual teachers.

    Yea I think Michelle Rhee has some interesting ideas but I'm curious about the long term impacts. What happens when the money from those private groups dries up? What happens when another administration comes into power (say one that is openly hostile to teachers like a Scott Walker)? What happens when one of those good teachers has one bad year and the administrators decide it's a good opportunity to trim them?
    Well Rhee gave the teachers the option (if you read the link).


    I assure you, like Hawkeye said, that person is not the exception. That is very, very, very common. I know a huge number of teachers on a personal level (tons of friends became teachers). This is increasingly common in the education world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    no, she wasn't. I have plenty of friends who are school teachers, and each and every one of them have examples just like that. Heard them with my own ears.

    On a side note, the 3 stupidest women in our large group of college friends all became teachers. While many go into education for the right reasons, let's not pretend that many people just go into it because there will always be a job, they get tons of time off, and they know they can half *** their way through life and never be fired...
    172 contract days per year lol....my fiance basically has 15 (12 during the summer) weeks paid off per year. Only negative is she doesn't get to choose when they happen. She also has unlimited sick time off, etc. Though, the pay sucks, and during the work week, she works way more than 40 hours....though, that isn't all teachers. But she certainly puts in the hours.

    And there is a surplus supply of available teachers looking for work fwiw.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    no, she wasn't. I have plenty of friends who are school teachers, and each and every one of them have examples just like that. Heard them with my own ears.

    On a side note, the 3 stupidest women in our large group of college friends all became teachers. While many go into education for the right reasons, let's not pretend that many people just go into it because there will always be a job, they get tons of time off, and they know they can half *** their way through life and never be fired...
    Are we going to make state or federal policy based on what three people? It can still be an exception when it's 3 or even 300 when you are talking about over 3,000,000 teachers all across the US.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First, I'm talking specifically about large corporations. Let's go through some of your points:

    1. Businesses create wealth. For who? Themselves and their board of directors? Absolutely. For middle class people? Absolutely not. Maybe you missed that real wages and wealth have stagnated while wealth for the top 1% has skyrocketed. So where is this wealth they're creating for everyone?
    Of course they do!

    They literally create a living wage, savings, and incomes for huge segments of the population. That's wealth.

    If you work 30 years for an employer, and manage to save money and buy a house, you'll have wealth at retirement age. There is a massive segment of the population that has done this.

    2. They create jobs. That is a side effect of their business, as Joey himself has admitted, if a business could make money without creating any jobs, they would. In fact, that's what businesses are trying to do right now. They have outsourced many jobs, they have automated many others and the second anyone asks for a raise (as is the case with fast food workers), they get threatened with losing their jobs.
    Well sure, but the benefit still exists and can't be dismissed.

    Amazon's creator explained this very well actually. He said according to you (or people who praise Amazon) Amazon gets praised for creating 300,000 jobs but by his own admission his business has eliminated over 1 million jobs from the economy. WalMart has a net negative job creation rate in places where they build their stores.
    And they save the average American family $2000 per year in spending (along with Wal-Mart).


    3. They create taxes. Actually many of the largest businesses don't pay much if any taxes. More importantly, they are actively working to not pay taxes and have hidden billions in offshore profits or moved their headquarters overseas to specifically avoid paying taxes.
    They create and pay taxes.
    Sales taxes
    Payroll taxes
    Federal income taxes
    City employment taxes
    City licensing and other related taxes

    Our federal, state, and city governments would cease with businesses, literally over night too.

    Corporate taxes were 32% of tax income in 1952, it was 10% in 2013. Boeing, General Electric, Verizon and over 20 other major corporations paid no federal income taxes from 2008 to 2012.
    There are more than just corporate taxes in the tax world.

    My gyms are an S-corp. I don't pay any corporate taxes.
    But I pay sales taxes, payroll taxes, city and use taxes, etc. The IRS gets a **** ton from me, including my personal income taxes. I don't need to be taxed twice on my revenue (thank you very much).


    Half the things you say corporations do good for us are things they aren't doing, don't want to do, or are trying not to do.
    And you are completely jaded and clearly have a business bias that is outside the relm of reality. Our government and economy literally ceases tomorrow without big and small businesses.

    Wells Fargo just defrauded millions of Americans by opening accounts in their name without their consent.
    If your interest is to tell me the bad things corporations have done in the last 5ish years, it'll fall on deaf ears. You know it's the minority and it pales in comparison to all the good they provide.

    Wells Fargo alone employs over a quarter of a million people who pay taxes, save wealth, provide to their economies, and spur investments throughout America.

    You love to point out the negatives, but fail to see how incredibly important places like Wells Fargo is. Even if they haven't been perfect.

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    How can you possibly know this?

    As for the studies part. If we're going to dismiss studies and data and actual real world numbers, what is the point? Me literally saying "I think the vast majority of private sector employees are lazier than Union employees" is just as valid as anything you said. There has to be some objectivity to our beliefs don't you think?
    This is one of those things that common sense outspeaks every thing else.

    If you are working for a private employer who is in an employment at will state and you start to show yourself to be inefficient or incompetent. You are gone tomorrow, without cause.

    If you are in a union and inefficient, you are allowed to persist. It takes termination level actions, with HR handling it perfectly, for years being done correctly before it's even possible. Meanwhile, pay continues to graduate higher and higher for years of service done. Rather than output.

    This is simply common sense. The private sector is significantly more efficient with labor costs.

  6. #351
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    Anyone wanna back up the labor unions = less productivity?

    (I've made zero posts in this thread and I see we've drifted off topic, so pardon me if the receipts have been shared already).

    But, in general, I'd much prefer a system where the power lies with the majority in a company and not a few high paid out of touch executives. I care much more for the rights, salaries, pensions, work-life balance, health, safety, etc. than paying executives millions of dollars.
    this my sig

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Anyone wanna back up the labor unions = less productivity?

    (I've made zero posts in this thread and I see we've drifted off topic, so pardon me if the receipts have been shared already).

    But, in general, I'd much prefer a system where the power lies with the majority in a company and not a few high paid out of touch executives. I care much more for the rights, salaries, pensions, work-life balance, health, safety, etc. than paying executives millions of dollars.
    The nice thing is that most companies, if they wish to actually pull and retain of the most valuable force available (labor), they will want, are encourage, and incentivized, to support, compensate, and build for their labor forces.

    Companies that poorly support labor tend to have high turnovers for those reasons, and it is incredibly costly, and companies are actively working to right this.

    Talent is the most important force in our economy to support. And good companies know this and are working on it. People like Simon Sinek have a voice because of this.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Are we going to make state or federal policy based on what three people? It can still be an exception when it's 3 or even 300 when you are talking about over 3,000,000 teachers all across the US.
    I think it's a bit more than 3 people

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    This is one of those things that common sense outspeaks every thing else.

    If you are working for a private employer who is in an employment at will state and you start to show yourself to be inefficient or incompetent. You are gone tomorrow, without cause.

    If you are in a union and inefficient, you are allowed to persist. It takes termination level actions, with HR handling it perfectly, for years being done correctly before it's even possible. Meanwhile, pay continues to graduate higher and higher for years of service done. Rather than output.

    This is simply common sense. The private sector is significantly more efficient with labor costs.
    Unions will re-assign all day long before they terminate. So, if you somehow, can get your contracted union to get rid of an employee you have logged countless complaints against, that employee will shortly be someone else's problem.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I think it's a bit more than 3 people
    Edit: Thought this was a different thread since I'm responding on phone. My bad.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Of course they do!

    They literally create a living wage, savings, and incomes for huge segments of the population. That's wealth

    If you work 30 years for an employer, and manage to save money and buy a house, you'll have wealth at retirement age. There is a massive segment of the population that has done this.

    Well sure, but the benefit still exists and can't be dismissed.

    And they save the average American family $2000 per year in spending (along with Wal-Mart).

    They create and pay taxes.
    Sales taxes
    Payroll taxes
    Federal income taxes
    City employment taxes
    City licensing and other related taxes

    Our federal, state, and city governments would cease with businesses, literally over night too.

    There are more than just corporate taxes in the tax world.

    My gyms are an S-corp. I don't pay any corporate taxes.
    But I pay sales taxes, payroll taxes, city and use taxes, etc. The IRS gets a **** ton from me, including my personal income taxes. I don't need to be taxed twice on my revenue (thank you very much).

    And you are completely jaded and clearly have a business bias that is outside the relm of reality. Our government and economy literally ceases tomorrow without big and small businesses.

    If your interest is to tell me the bad things corporations have done in the last 5ish years, it'll fall on deaf ears. You know it's the minority and it pales in comparison to all the good they provide.

    Wells Fargo alone employs over a quarter of a million people who pay taxes, save wealth, provide to their economies, and spur investments throughout America.

    You love to point out the negatives, but fail to see how incredibly important places like Wells Fargo is. Even if they haven't been perfect.
    We're talking about major corporations here. Let's look at the largest US employer: Wal-Mart. They employ roughly 1.5 million people in the US. Over 1 million of which are paid at or near minimum wage. So no, they are not paying livable wages. Many of Wal-Mart's employees are on welfare.

    I could go on for other large employers in this country but you get the idea, many don't actually pay livable wages.

    But let's focus on your create wealth and savings line. Again, for who? Here are the facts:

    Real wages have stagnated the past 30+ years.
    13% of Americans have Pensions and over 60% report they don't have enough saved for retirement.
    The share of wealth in the US by the 51st to 99th percentile has gone down and the share of the bottom 50% has stayed the same.

    (links)
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/13/here...etirement.html
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ality_-_v2.png

    So let's go over your claims:

    1. Many Americans aren't being paid a livable wage and the % of workers getting paid a minimum level wage is actually increasing
    2. The amount of Americans who have savings for retirement has greatly increased and over half don't have enough for retirement
    3. Real world wages have stagnated

    What you don't seem to grasp is that all the things you claim Corporations do for us are getting worse. And your position is we should be thankful that they have deigned to give us what little we have instead of realizing they've actually been taking from us the past 50 years.

    Second Bolded: And our government and economy would cease overnight if we got rid of government and it's employees, something tells me that won't stop you from saying how bad the government is.

    But the main problem is you seem to be confusing "our economy would cease without these big businesses". If Wal-Mart went away tomorrow we wouldn't all starve, another company would come in and take it's place in the market.

    Third Bolded: OK, Wells Fargo employs 500,000 people. But they ****ed over 3.5 million people. That is 7x more people they ****ed than they employ.

    But I think the last bolded is where the nexus of our disagreements arise. You seem to be saying that because they are so important and we need them so bad they should be free to **** us over and do illegal and immoral things because hey, without them we'd all die.

    I'm saying that although they are important, it's more important they not do illegal and immoral things because we can replace them with other businesses that will act morally if we demand it.

    I think the main difference between us, is I don't want to excuse them when they do something wrong because they've done something right. We don't do that with people. If someone robs a bank we don't let them walk because they used some of their stolen money to donate to charity.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    This is one of those things that common sense outspeaks every thing else.

    If you are working for a private employer who is in an employment at will state and you start to show yourself to be inefficient or incompetent. You are gone tomorrow, without cause.

    If you are in a union and inefficient, you are allowed to persist. It takes termination level actions, with HR handling it perfectly, for years being done correctly before it's even possible. Meanwhile, pay continues to graduate higher and higher for years of service done. Rather than output.

    This is simply common sense. The private sector is significantly more efficient with labor costs.
    I already posted it. The biggest factor in people seeking new employment in the private sector is bad bosses. So obviously no, they aren't getting fired, they're getting promoted.

    The idea that union employees are lazier than their private counterparts is a bias born solely out of personal opinion.

    If you want to persist in the belief that all union employees are lazy and all private employees are industrious you can, but it likely explains why you don't like Unions very much.

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    We're talking about major corporations here. Let's look at the largest US employer: Wal-Mart. They employ roughly 1.5 million people in the US. Over 1 million of which are paid at or near minimum wage. So no, they are not paying livable wages. Many of Wal-Mart's employees are on welfare.I could go on for other large employers in this country but you get the idea, many don't actually pay livable wages.

    But let's focus on your create wealth and savings line. Again, for who? Here are the facts:

    Real wages have stagnated the past 30+ years.
    13% of Americans have Pensions and over 60% report they don't have enough saved for retirement.
    The share of wealth in the US by the 51st to 99th percentile has gone down and the share of the bottom 50% has stayed the same.

    (links)
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/13/here...etirement.html
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ality_-_v2.png

    So let's go over your claims:

    1. Many Americans aren't being paid a livable wage and the % of workers getting paid a minimum level wage is actually increasing
    2. The amount of Americans who have savings for retirement has greatly increased and over half don't have enough for retirement
    3. Real world wages have stagnated

    What you don't seem to grasp is that all the things you claim Corporations do for us are getting worse. And your position is we should be thankful that they have deigned to give us what little we have instead of realizing they've actually been taking from us the past 50 years.

    Second Bolded: And our government and economy would cease overnight if we got rid of government and it's employees, something tells me that won't stop you from saying how bad the government is.

    But the main problem is you seem to be confusing "our economy would cease without these big businesses". If Wal-Mart went away tomorrow we wouldn't all starve, another company would come in and take it's place in the market.

    Third Bolded: OK, Wells Fargo employs 500,000 people. But they ****ed over 3.5 million people. That is 7x more people they ****ed than they employ.

    But I think the last bolded is where the nexus of our disagreements arise. You seem to be saying that because they are so important and we need them so bad they should be free to **** us over and do illegal and immoral things because hey, without them we'd all die.

    I'm saying that although they are important, it's more important they not do illegal and immoral things because we can replace them with other businesses that will act morally if we demand it.

    I think the main difference between us, is I don't want to excuse them when they do something wrong because they've done something right. We don't do that with people. If someone robs a bank we don't let them walk because they used some of their stolen money to donate to charity.
    why do you think they destroy the competition in regards to cost of goods? I agree with plenty you say here, as well as Jeffy. I think corporations do a ton more good than you are giving them credit for, but you are also correct in that they don't do their fair share when it comes to income distribution or tax contributions.

    Walmart is a tough example. If you want them to make the changes you suggest, get ready to pay more for your black beans and diapers.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    why do you think they destroy the competition in regards to cost of goods? I agree with plenty you say here, as well as Jeffy. I think corporations do a ton more good than you are giving them credit for, but you are also correct in that they don't do their fair share when it comes to income distribution or tax contributions.

    Walmart is a tough example. If you want them to make the changes you suggest, get ready to pay more for your black beans and diapers.
    Well luckily I make enough I don't have to shop at Wal-Mart and I definitely don't (mostly because I hate the atmosphere, every Wal-Mart feels like the scene in Jumanji when everyone is running around that store).

    But many people don't have that luxury and are forced to shop at Wal-Mart. I recognize that. Unfortunately many people who shop at Wal-Mart are the employees themselves. Sort of like the line in Casino when he gives him the line of credit and tells his goon "make sure he spends it at this casino".

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well luckily I make enough I don't have to shop at Wal-Mart and I definitely don't (mostly because I hate the atmosphere, every Wal-Mart feels like the scene in Jumanji when everyone is running around that store).

    But many people don't have that luxury and are forced to shop at Wal-Mart. I recognize that. Unfortunately many people who shop at Wal-Mart are the employees themselves. Sort of like the line in Casino when he gives him the line of credit and tells his goon "make sure he spends it at this casino".
    if you are ever having a bad day, or down on yourself, pay a visit to Walmart. Your self confidence will shoot through the roof

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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