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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Nut Kruk View Post
    I don't agree with pitching one inning being the same as pitching to one specific kind of batter.
    Why? It's a limited role just the same. I personally hate the fact we have 7th, 8th, and 9th inning guys. Goose Gossage would come in the 7th and finish the game. To me, that's what is dragging the game.

    It's no surprise anymore when a starter is taken out in the middle of the 6th. We have that guy finish the inning and then we have the 7th inning guy come in because that's his role, but if he has an off day, here comes another guy mid inning.

    We can thank the beginning of all this crap to LaRussa when he wanted to get the best of what was left with Eckersly. And it worked with him like it did with Mariano. But how many true closers are there in the league, guys who you know are going to finish the game 1, 2, 3 9 times out of 10, a handful?

    I personally can see the argument old school voters had against relievers. We have Schilling pitching around 3 times the amount of innings Wagner has. Yea, his ERA is more than run higher, but I'll draft him for my team any day over a ton of closers, even HOF ones.

    Again, I don't care either way, because we've been down this point of no return for years now. One inning, one batter; it's all the same to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Why? It's a limited role just the same. I personally hate the fact we have 7th, 8th, and 9th inning guys. Goose Gossage would come in the 7th and finish the game. To me, that's what is dragging the game.

    It's no surprise anymore when a starter is taken out in the middle of the 6th. We have that guy finish the inning and then we have the 7th inning guy come in because that's his role, but if he has an off day, here comes another guy mid inning.

    We can thank the beginning of all this crap to LaRussa when he wanted to get the best of what was left with Eckersly. And it worked with him like it did with Mariano. But how many true closers are there in the league, guys who you know are going to finish the game 1, 2, 3 9 times out of 10, a handful?

    I personally can see the argument old school voters had against relievers. We have Schilling pitching around 3 times the amount of innings Wagner has. Yea, his ERA is more than run higher, but I'll draft him for my team any day over a ton of closers, even HOF ones.

    Again, I don't care either way, because we've been down this point of no return for years now. One inning, one batter; it's all the same to me.
    Granted, they're taking the specialization that began with LaRussa's strategy to it's logical conclusion. That doesn't mean a line can't be drawn somewhere.

    The problem with your example above is that pitchers aren't even left in long enough to have a bad outing. You can have three consecutive pitching changes to face three straight batters if the computers suggest favorable matchups.

    Baseball was never meant to be played that way. How is that even remotely entertaining?

    The problem isn't when the starting pitcher is taken out with one out in the 6th inning. It's when the manager feels the need to use two or three pitchers more pitchers to finish the inning.

    Something's gotta be done.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Granted, they're taking the specialization that began with LaRussa's strategy to it's logical conclusion. That doesn't mean a line can't be drawn somewhere.

    The problem with your example above is that pitchers aren't even left in long enough to have a bad outing. You can have three consecutive pitching changes to face three straight batters if the computers suggest favorable matchups.

    Baseball was never meant to be played that way. How is that even remotely entertaining?

    The problem isn't when the starting pitcher is taken out with one out in the 6th inning. It's when the manager feels the need to use two or three pitchers more pitchers to finish the inning.

    Something's gotta be done.
    The game wasn't meant to be played the way it's been for the last 15-20 years and even farther than that if you want to say the DH. Talk about a rule turning the whole game upside down. Jesse Orosco and Dan Plesac come to mind as "lefty specialist" and it's early 2000's with them.

    It's got to simply evolve back. Nolan Ryan has said for years that everyone has been pampering these pitchers hence why their performances slowly fall apart as the game goes on and the need for all of these relievers has come about. Others have said it's the amount of stress players are putting on their arms due to the high speeds they throw. I'm not sure what game I saw it, but there was a showing of the 5 pitchers who were playing the best at that point and they all averaged about 92 mph or lower.

    My point being is if a GM recognizes this pattern and starts building up the endurance of these players instead of speed, perhaps we will see a change back if they win. Someone just has to have the balls to change the game by not being a copycat. As much as I blame LaRussa for all of this, he at least took the game his own way.

    Edit: By the way, I just saw it the other day. I think it was the Milwaukee game. They had the X inning guy come in and he loads the bases and they brought someone else in and I think it became a mess of pitching changes ever since. They starting pitcher pitched only 5 innings I think. If he pitched 7, that chaos of pitching change after pitching change would not have started. Let's be honest here too, the times these games are going to went from around 2:30 hours 30+ years ago to 3 hours now which kind of goes hand and hand with all of these pitching changes.
    Last edited by thefeckcampaign; 07-17-2017 at 09:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    The game wasn't meant to be played the way it's been for the last 15-20 years and even farther than that if you want to say the DH. Talk about a rule turning the whole game upside down. Jesse Orosco and Dan Plesac come to mind as "lefty specialist" and it's early 2000's with them.

    It's got to simply evolve back. Nolan Ryan has said for years that everyone has been pampering these pitchers hence why their performances slowly fall apart as the game goes on and the need for all of these relievers has come about. Others have said it's the amount of stress players are putting on their arms due to the high speeds they throw. I'm not sure what game I saw it, but there was a showing of the 5 pitchers who were playing the best at that point and they all averaged about 92 mph or lower.

    My point being is if a GM recognizes this pattern and starts building up the endurance of these players instead of speed, perhaps we will see a change back if they win. Someone just has to have the balls to change the game by not being a copycat. As much as I blame LaRussa for all of this, he at least took the game his own way.

    Edit: By the way, I just saw it the other day. I think it was the Milwaukee game. They had the X inning guy come in and he loads the bases and they brought someone else in and I think it became a mess of pitching changes ever since. They starting pitcher pitched only 5 innings I think. If he pitched 7, that chaos of pitching change after pitching change would not have started. Let's be honest here too, the times these games are going to went from around 2:30 hours 30+ years ago to 3 hours now which kind of goes hand and hand with all of these pitching changes.
    Things don't devolve. Change doesn't go backward. the DH ain't going anywhere. Doubleheaders won't be a thing again. And pitchers won't be throwing 20 to 30 complete games again any time soon.

    Baseball changes. I get that. What makes baseball great is how it imitates life. Just as life changes, so does t his great game. Fine.

    But when some changes start throwing the game out of whack, they make rules to bring back a common sense approach, as best as possible. In the 1972 Word Series, Reds manager Sparky Anderson wore a path between the dugout and the the pitcher's mound he was making so many trips the mound. Shortly after, they ruled that if you come out a second time, the pitcher must come out.

    Prior to that, there was no need for such a rule since generally, managers rarely made more than 2 trips to the mound. Not too long ago, no one thought to use multiple pitchers per inning, charging each to get just one out. That strategy has since gotten out of hand. Time for another rule.

    No big deal.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Things don't devolve. Change doesn't go backward. the DH ain't going anywhere. Doubleheaders won't be a thing again. And pitchers won't be throwing 20 to 30 complete games again any time soon.

    Baseball changes. I get that. What makes baseball great is how it imitates life. Just as life changes, so does t his great game. Fine.

    But when some changes start throwing the game out of whack, they make rules to bring back a common sense approach, as best as possible. In the 1972 Word Series, Reds manager Sparky Anderson wore a path between the dugout and the the pitcher's mound he was making so many trips the mound. Shortly after, they ruled that if you come out a second time, the pitcher must come out.

    Prior to that, there was no need for such a rule since generally, managers rarely made more than 2 trips to the mound. Not too long ago, no one thought to use multiple pitchers per inning, charging each to get just one out. That strategy has since gotten out of hand. Time for another rule.

    No big deal.
    I don't think that particular rule is the way to go. I'll give you two I thought of that I've been barked at here in the past. The first one is closest to your Sparky Anderson rule.

    1. No warmup pitches. If it's part of the strategy, these pitchers should be prepared already. If it's the feel of the mound, make the ones in the pen as close to the one on the field as possible. Pitching changes will go as quickly as a pinch hitter coming in.

    2. Once the starter is taken out, a new DH must be put in. It'll make them maybe think twice before taking the starters out, meaning less innings to change a bunch of pitchers in. A new DH must be changed afterwards each time around the lineup if the pitcher is changed before his next at bat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Things don't devolve. Change doesn't go backward. the DH ain't going anywhere. Doubleheaders won't be a thing again. And pitchers won't be throwing 20 to 30 complete games again any time soon.

    Baseball changes. I get that. What makes baseball great is how it imitates life. Just as life changes, so does t his great game. Fine.

    But when some changes start throwing the game out of whack, they make rules to bring back a common sense approach, as best as possible. In the 1972 Word Series, Reds manager Sparky Anderson wore a path between the dugout and the the pitcher's mound he was making so many trips the mound. Shortly after, they ruled that if you come out a second time, the pitcher must come out.

    Prior to that, there was no need for such a rule since generally, managers rarely made more than 2 trips to the mound. Not too long ago, no one thought to use multiple pitchers per inning, charging each to get just one out. That strategy has since gotten out of hand. Time for another rule.

    No big deal.
    I don't think that particular rule is the way to go. I'll give you two I thought of that I've been barked at here in the past. The first one is closest to your Sparky Anderson rule.

    1. No warmup pitches. If it's part of the strategy, these pitchers should be prepared already. If it's the feel of the mound, make the ones in the pen as close to the one on the field as possible. Pitching changes will go as quickly as a pinch hitter coming in.

    2. Once the starter is taken out, a new DH must be put in. It'll make them maybe think twice before taking the starters out, meaning less innings to change a bunch of pitchers in. A new DH must be changed afterwards each time around the lineup if the pitcher is changed before his next at bat.
    lol I think your second rule stinks.

    I don't think teams should be penalized for making pitching changes. But the changes should be regulated.

    As for warmup tosses, I don't mind them between innings. But a pitcher being brought in during an inning is all warmed up. No need to throw additional ones.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    lol I think your second rule stinks.

    I don't think teams should be penalized for making pitching changes. But the changes should be regulated.

    As for warmup tosses, I don't mind them between innings. But a pitcher being brought in during an inning is all warmed up. No need to throw additional ones.
    Easy with the "lol". We were having a nice conversation until then.

    My thought process was just like taking a pitcher out when they hit. The pitcher is struggling a bit but he's coming to bat. The manager holds on through the inning to get to the pinch hitter. The manager might hold on a bit if they know they need to take say David Ortiz out if he's scheduled to bat the next inning.

    I don't mind the warm up pitches in between innings. The pitcher has been sitting a bit, besides commercials need to get in. It's just coming in from the bullpen. That is what really drags the game. They can make all the changes they want and the most that'll happen is they have to run from the bullpen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Easy with the "lol". We were having a nice conversation until then.

    My thought process was just like taking a pitcher out when they hit. The pitcher is struggling a bit but he's coming to bat. The manager holds on through the inning to get to the pinch hitter. The manager might hold on a bit if they know they need to take say David Ortiz out if he's scheduled to bat the next inning.

    I don't mind the warm up pitches in between innings. The pitcher has been sitting a bit, besides commercials need to get in. It's just coming in from the bullpen. That is what really drags the game. They can make all the changes they want and the most that'll happen is they have to run from the bullpen.
    Many apologies for the lol. That was wrong and inappropriate. You didn't deserve that. It's what happens when I respond on my phone at 5:30 in the morning when the fingers are working faster than the brain. On the other hand, maybe you should feel flattered that you were the first person i interacted with on this beautiful and glorious day. Regardless, thank you for pointing out my indiscretion. I pride myself on being better than that.

    I don't want to change the game radically. I'm still trying to get over the DH. But i gave up that fight when it dawned on me that the entire baseball playing world was using a DH except the National League right here in the good ole US of A. So I've switched sides. While i hate the DH as much as ever, it's time for the NL to get in line with everyone else already.

    I don't like the idea of tying pitching changes to changes in the batting order because sometimes it's just necessary to remove a pitcher. One second he's sailing along and the next he's sucking wind. And when that happens, i don't think a manager should be forced to pick and choose. When a pitcher's throwing up meatballs, get him out of there!

    No, the concern was about excessive pitching changes, micromanaging, and keying in on one-on-one matchups that slow the game to a snail's pace. In my opinion, there's a simple fix for that: The three batter rule.

    Glad to see we're on the same page with warm up pitches. Agreed that it's ridiculously silly for a guyy who was warming up for a half hour to then throw a half a dozen obligatory warm ups from the real mound. I get that there's a different feeling throwing from a bullpen mound to the field mound. Can't help but think that's a tad overrated. He just ran in from the bullpen. Just pitch to the batter already.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Many apologies for the lol. That was wrong and inappropriate. You didn't deserve that. It's what happens when I respond on my phone at 5:30 in the morning when the fingers are working faster than the brain. On the other hand, maybe you should feel flattered that you were the first person i interacted with on this beautiful and glorious day. Regardless, thank you for pointing out my indiscretion. I pride myself on being better than that.

    I don't want to change the game radically. I'm still trying to get over the DH. But i gave up that fight when it dawned on me that the entire baseball playing world was using a DH except the National League right here in the good ole US of A. So I've switched sides. While i hate the DH as much as ever, it's time for the NL to get in line with everyone else already.

    I don't like the idea of tying pitching changes to changes in the batting order because sometimes it's just necessary to remove a pitcher. One second he's sailing along and the next he's sucking wind. And when that happens, i don't think a manager should be forced to pick and choose. When a pitcher's throwing up meatballs, get him out of there!

    No, the concern was about excessive pitching changes, micromanaging, and keying in on one-on-one matchups that slow the game to a snail's pace. In my opinion, there's a simple fix for that: The three batter rule.

    Glad to see we're on the same page with warm up pitches. Agreed that it's ridiculously silly for a guyy who was warming up for a half hour to then throw a half a dozen obligatory warm ups from the real mound. I get that there's a different feeling throwing from a bullpen mound to the field mound. Can't help but think that's a tad overrated. He just ran in from the bullpen. Just pitch to the batter already.
    No problem.

    I know it's a losing battle with the DH, but my idea is just my last bit of hope for having a bit of strategy left.

    Believe it or not, I think if we did get rid of the warmup pitches, we would not need anything else to solve this problem. The game will pick up speed and the only thing that'll happen by doing all of these pitching changes is a manager wasted a pitcher by doing it
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    No problem.

    I know it's a losing battle with the DH, but my idea is just my last bit of hope for having a bit of strategy left.

    Believe it or not, I think if we did get rid of the warmup pitches, we would not need anything else to solve this problem. The game will pick up speed and the only thing that'll happen by doing all of these pitching changes is a manager wasted a pitcher by doing it
    I dunno. How long does it take to throw a half-dozen warm ups? No, the time is spent with the manager or pitching coach walking gingerly out to the mound, chatting with the pitcher for a half a minute or so, and then waiting for the pitcher to stroll in from the bullpen. Then we switch to commercial.

    You think eliminating warmups would kill the commercials? Hmmmm.

    But i inadvertently raise a good point (trying not to hurt my arm patting myself on the back) Baseball probably loves all these game stoppages. More places to put expensive commercials. More money. Since they don't go to commercial when a pitcher throws an intentional walk, they thought they could give us lip service with the pointless automatic walk.

    But something that would constitute real change while hurting revenue? Will never happen.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears but they seem kinda sensible...."

  11. #71
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    To be fair, I think both of your guys' proposed rule changes stink.

    "there's no shines in my shinebox"

  12. #72
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    Lmao

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    To be fair, I think both of your guys' proposed rule changes stink.
    And what is your suggestion to make the game faster that hasn't been said already by others?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I dunno. How long does it take to throw a half-dozen warm ups? No, the time is spent with the manager or pitching coach walking gingerly out to the mound, chatting with the pitcher for a half a minute or so, and then waiting for the pitcher to stroll in from the bullpen. Then we switch to commercial.

    You think eliminating warmups would kill the commercials? Hmmmm.

    But i inadvertently raise a good point (trying not to hurt my arm patting myself on the back) Baseball probably loves all these game stoppages. More places to put expensive commercials. More money. Since they don't go to commercial when a pitcher throws an intentional walk, they thought they could give us lip service with the pointless automatic walk.

    But something that would constitute real change while hurting revenue? Will never happen.
    Let's get rid of the gingerly walk then. Only allow managers a couple of them a game, like a timeout.

    Just like a pinch hitter needs to be ready, so does the relief pitcher. They have bullpen phones. Give them a little time to get to the mound, maybe slightly more than a pinch hitter as the bullpen is farther. Then they pitch right away to the batter who's waiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    And what is your suggestion to make the game faster that hasn't been said already by others?
    Much like me, he probably doesn't care if it is sped up.

    I'm all for discussing stuff like this but I'm also fine with the way the game is

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