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  1. #211
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    Coupon can keep repeating it all he wants. If teams believed Murphy was this good, they would have dumped a truckload of cash at his doorstep.

    Murphy certainly wouldn't have had to settle for well below what his production calls for market wise.

    He obviously didn't believe he was this good either otherwise he doesnt take 37.5 million dollars. He takes the QO from the Mets and re-enters FA this past offseason, making a ton of money.

    That said, Coupon likes to keep telling you he would have taken a massive discount to stay with the Mets. ********.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    It's only a dumb decision because he turned a 2 month hot streak into a completely transformed hitter.

    How many guys in major league history do you know of are league average bats for the first 8 years of their career then turn into MVP candidates?

    I'll wait while anyone looks it up.

    The Nationals wanted Brandon Phillips before Murphy. Not to mention no other team was willing to give up a first round pick for a player with position versatility and quote on quote offense that could play across the infield.
    It's dumb because all the signs were there. The fact that the teams in a position to sign a 2B didn't realize it doesn't magically change that fact. There were people, Coupon included, on this forum who said Murphy was for real, and pointed to his statistics to show it.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    It's only a dumb decision because he turned a 2 month hot streak into a completely transformed hitter.

    How many guys in major league history do you know of are league average bats for the first 8 years of their career then turn into MVP candidates?

    I'll wait while anyone looks it up.

    The Nationals wanted Brandon Phillips before Murphy. Not to mention no other team was willing to give up a first round pick for a player with position versatility and quote on quote offense that could play across the infield.
    Why is it so hard for you and a couple others to admit letting Murphy walk was an unmitigated disaster?

    I gave a laundry list of further cascading bad moves that followed from the decision to let Murphy walk. It wasn't just a horrible move in a vacuum. You never address that; you keep coming at me with the same tired points.

    The answers, as always, are:

    a) Few teams with the budget for Murphy were in the market for a 2B:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0

    It was reported the Rockies wanted Murphy to play 1B, but he didn't want to go there and change positions.

    What he really wanted to do was stay on the Mets. He damaged his own market by not pursuing other options until the Mets acquired Walker:

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2015/12...ets-deal.html/

    His love of the Mets proved frustrating and costly. I'm sure many of us fans feel the same.

    Murphy also wanted to play for a contender, which further narrowed possible landing spots.

    b) Not sure what past precedent for a player improving has to do with anything. Murphy's particular transformation was analyzed and deemed legitimate by informed segments of media. Here's an article in Fangraphs suggesting a future batting championship was possible.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/lets-...daniel-murphy/

    The numbers quoted in the article were all publicly accessible. You'd think a player's own GM would not only have these metrics at hand, but also much deeper analysis. But I guess not. This wasn't the first time Maverick has let go of a player in the midst of a breakout.

    c) Maverick's first move as GM was to bring in Brad Emaus to start over Daniel Murphy and Justin Turner at 2B.

    That really says it all.

  4. #214
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    Yeah, no idea how people keep defending the Murphy non-signing.

    First of all, he put up elite wRC+ the last 2 months of the season (>125) so the signs were there. And then mashed in the playoffs.

    Even if you don't think he became an elite hitter, he was still an above average second baseman and 3/36 is below market value. There was literally no risk with signing him to that contract. What are we paying Granderson again?

    So, by not signing Murphy you give up the chance that he has turned a corner and become an elite hitter so you let that go for no reason. By signing Murphy, at the LEAST, you have an above average second baseman who you are paying below standard market value for, and you don't have to trade Niese for Walker and could maybe have traded him for something else. That's where the dumbness of the move comes from.
    Last edited by Hustla23; 06-17-2017 at 11:42 PM.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hustla23 View Post
    Yeah, no idea how people keep defending the Murphy non-signing.

    First of all, he put up elite wRC+ the last 2 months of the season (>125) so the signs were there. And then mashed in the playoffs.

    Even if you don't think he became an elite hitter, he was still an above average second baseman and 3/36 is below market value. There was literally no risk with signing him to that contract. What are we paying Granderson again?

    So, by not signing Murphy you give up the chance that he has turned a corner and become an elite hitter so you let that go for no reason. By signing Murphy, at the LEAST, you have an above average second baseman who you are paying below standard market value for, and you don't have to trade Niese for Walker and could maybe have traded him for something else. That's where the dumbness of the move comes from.
    Yeah, the signs were there, but really what has cemented this as a turrible move is the fact that they have paid 8 million more for lesser production over the last 2 years.

    The idea that other teams were not interested and passes on him validates the fact that they could of gotten him for a lot cheaper than what he would of commanded had their been a bigger market for his services.


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  6. #216
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    Washington Nationals @ New York Mets- June 15th-June 18th

    Lot of revisionist historians in here, and the fact that anyone is giving Coupons thoughts any credence is hilarious.

    That being said, I'm all for trading away our veteran assets as well this year. I want all of our youngins to start getting consistent playing time. Nimmo in the OF, Flores working on his accuracy from third, I wanna see cecchini at second, and last but certainly not least...I wanna see dom smith and Rosario on this squad by the all star break to get them acclimated.

    Matz, Lugo, Wheeler (until he's tired), degrom, Gsellman and any combination of prospects they think that could do something.

    I also would like to see any relievers they think might be ready to come up and get some reps.

    Even though somebody might think giving up this early isn't justified yet. That's what I would like to see, I want to know if any of these youngins can figure it out, and I want them all to get a good chunk of experience. This year is not the year. I'll still get entertainment out of watching our young guys get some playing time.


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  7. #217
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    Mets are the 6 worst team in baseball. Sigh!


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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8ghee View Post
    Lot of revisionist historians in here, and the fact that anyone is giving Coupons thoughts any credence is hilarious.
    The only history anyone's trying to revise is that not re-signing Murphy was anything other than a catastrophe.

    And why do you feel it necessary to insult me? I've demonstrated way more prescience and knowledge than you on this subject. Did you also sneer at the kids who did better than you at school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Mets are the 6 worst team in baseball. Sigh!


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    In the afterglow of the 2015 season, I believe we both gave most of the credit to Omar. That was his team. I went a step further than you and outright said Alderson was not a good GM. His mistakes greatly outweighed his triumphs. They still do, but now that the Maverick's burned through the talent he inherited, his shortcomings are far more obvious to everyone.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8ghee View Post
    Lot of revisionist historians in here
    Where? Show it if you're going to talk smalk.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Why is it so hard for you and a couple others to admit letting Murphy walk was an unmitigated disaster?

    I gave a laundry list of further cascading bad moves that followed from the decision to let Murphy walk. It wasn't just a horrible move in a vacuum. You never address that; you keep coming at me with the same tired points.

    The answers, as always, are:

    a) Few teams with the budget for Murphy were in the market for a 2B:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0

    It was reported the Rockies wanted Murphy to play 1B, but he didn't want to go there and change positions.

    What he really wanted to do was stay on the Mets. He damaged his own market by not pursuing other options until the Mets acquired Walker:

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2015/12...ets-deal.html/

    His love of the Mets proved frustrating and costly. I'm sure many of us fans feel the same.

    Murphy also wanted to play for a contender, which further narrowed possible landing spots.

    b) Not sure what past precedent for a player improving has to do with anything. Murphy's particular transformation was analyzed and deemed legitimate by informed segments of media. Here's an article in Fangraphs suggesting a future batting championship was possible.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/lets-...daniel-murphy/

    The numbers quoted in the article were all publicly accessible. You'd think a player's own GM would not only have these metrics at hand, but also much deeper analysis. But I guess not. This wasn't the first time Maverick has let go of a player in the midst of a breakout.

    c) Maverick's first move as GM was to bring in Brad Emaus to start over Daniel Murphy and Justin Turner at 2B.

    That really says it all.
    What market? You keep suggesting that Murphy was this hot commodity. Hot commodities don't play 2nd fiddle to Brandon Phillips. Daniel didn't hurt his market, his market was limited because he wasn't overly valuable to anyone. He was out there as long as he was because teams weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick for what you keep suggesting was this demonstrably better hitter. Again where were the takers for a player who is as valuable as you suggested? No one lets a player of the caliber you are suggesting sit in FA.

    It has everything to do with past precedent. Guys change approaches and have better short term results all the time. You know what happens in 99.9% of cases? The league updates their scouting reports and they make adjustments. To suggest that batted ball data over 2 months should dictate a career transformation is ridiculous because not one player in major league history has gone from a slightly above league average player to a perennial MVP after 7 years in the league (excluding the steroid ERA).

    This is about one thing and one thing only. Its about where he signed. If he signs in Oakland, no one continues to make the same tired argument about how it was so obvious Murphy was this transformed hitter. Well apparently it was so obvious that teams weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick, were more interested in Brandon Phillips, were maxing out their offers at <<<40 million, and the player himself settled for that money when nothing else came to pass.

    Essentially leaving 100+million dollars on the table.

    But keep telling everyone he would have taken a discount after a monster season.
    Last edited by metswon69; 06-18-2017 at 08:01 AM.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGamer81 View Post
    It's dumb because all the signs were there. The fact that the teams in a position to sign a 2B didn't realize it doesn't magically change that fact. There were people, Coupon included, on this forum who said Murphy was for real, and pointed to his statistics to show it.
    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...ing-in-the-pan

    Statistics don't tell you everything. A lot of guys can get hot for 300 PA or even a great season. Those guys made adjustments and the statistics backed that up as well. That doesn't include guys in contract years as well where there is even more motivation to play well and in many cases, once the player is signed, involves that player not playing the same thereafter.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    In the afterglow of the 2015 season, I believe we both gave most of the credit to Omar. That was his team. I went a step further than you and outright said Alderson was not a good GM. His mistakes greatly outweighed his triumphs. They still do, but now that the Maverick's burned through the talent he inherited, his shortcomings are far more obvious to everyone.
    Yeah, I wasn't shy about presenting evidence of how that 2015 team was heavily influence by Omar. I believe 17 players came from his regime, can't remember the exact numbers of players.

    Anderson did a great job flipping "some" of the veteran talent he inherited, I quote some because he should flipped Reyes and other guys for talent as well. Yet he did pretty good for Beltran and Dickey and he did get Cespedes who was the biggest get that second half of the season.

    In the end I felt that Omar should get his due credit for leaving this organization with a lot better talent than what was previously stated by many.

    Should Omar get most of the credit for that 2015 run? I can't say he should, but because of the talent he left behind that run was possible.

    As for Alderson being a bad GM?

    I can't say he is a bad one, but let's face some facts here.


    1.He got lucky that Cespedes loves it here so much that he took a lesser deal to stay here instead of going to the Nats. If he had signed with the Nats it would of been ****ing insane.

    2.His decision to let Murphy go has was downright brutal as the results show. I already shown the reasoning why I feel like this.

    3.His lack of moves this past off season was awful, this team needed pen arms and all they did was go with what they got. I mention how insanity is doing the same thing again and hoping for better results and well we have seen what the results are this season.

    4.Counting on Gsellman and Lugo to basically cover the pen depth and rotation depth was short sighted thinking. We know injuries will happen and this rotation aside from Syndergaard was very fragile. Harvey, Wheeler, Matz and deGrom all were coming back from injuries. We knew Wheeler was going to be shut down and or kept to 125 innings limit, so again you are counting on health. Not to mention expecting similar results from these two guys. Regression happens and we have seen that with Gsellman.

    Alderson was great at keeping and not trading away prospects and getting more youth into the team pre 2105. After that he has not been able to make the Mets better. It's been downhill since then.


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  13. #223
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    How many plays is Flores going to be allowed to **** up st 3B before his pitchers beat the **** out of him?! He can't play 3B! Enough already!

  14. #224
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    hopefully the draft pick we got from murph turns out to be next mike trout because letting him go was dumb as ****

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    What market? You keep suggesting that Murphy was this hot commodity. Hot commodities don't play 2nd fiddle to Brandon Phillips. Daniel didn't hurt his market, his market was limited because he wasn't overly valuable to anyone. He was out there as long as he was because teams weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick for what you keep suggesting was this demonstrably better hitter. Again where were the takers for a player who is as valuable as you suggested? No one lets a player of the caliber you are suggesting sit in FA.

    It has everything to do with past precedent. Guys change approaches and have better short term results all the time. You know what happens in 99.9% of cases? The league updates their scouting reports and they make adjustments. To suggest that batted ball data over 2 months should dictate a career transformation is ridiculous because not one player in major league history has gone from a slightly above league average player to a perennial MVP after 7 years in the league (excluding the steroid ERA).

    This is about one thing and one thing only. Its about where he signed. If he signs in Oakland, no one continues to make the same tired argument about how it was so obvious Murphy was this transformed hitter. Well apparently it was so obvious that teams weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick, were more interested in Brandon Phillips, were maxing out their offers at <<<40 million, and the player himself settled for that money when nothing else came to pass.

    Essentially leaving 100+million dollars on the table.

    But keep telling everyone he would have taken a discount after a monster season.
    Face it: Maverick ****ed up again.

    If I - a simple fan - could see Murphy had developed power and become a truly great hitter, there's no excuse for the soi disant genius missing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiley6 View Post
    How many plays is Flores going to be allowed to **** up st 3B before his pitchers beat the **** out of him?! He can't play 3B! Enough already!
    He should have been the starting 2nd baseman out of the gate. His defense is better there. Unfortunately the GM spent $17M on Walker when he already had about 5 2nd basemen.

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