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  1. #1891
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    On Cano - I believe with all my heart that if the Yankees would have offered Cano 8 years and $200 million and he would have accepted it and Ellsbury would have went to Seattle. Now, the rest is history. You don't play chicken with Hall of Famers, especially when they would surely have options elsewhere.

    The Yankees once offered Mickey Mantle a paycut, because he was the best player in the league, but failed to win the Triple Crown like he had the prior season. He had no alternative, so he refused to sign and eventually the Yankees had to pay him the same salary. Good thing Mickey didn't have options or we'd have seen how much their folly would have cost them.

    On Tanaka, it is similar to the past CC situation. A deal was made prior to the opt out and extended CC for two years. Tanaka is not guaranteed anything by opting out. He can opt in for more security or roll the dice. I'd give him a three year extension in lieu of an opt out and put the decision on him.

  2. #1892
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    I would disagree. The Yankees made no efforts to really engage with Cano for an extension. The refusal to exchange the option years meant the Front Office was drawing a line they knew Boras was not willing to accept.

    Afterwards, they basically offered Cano a "Take it or leave it" deal at 7-years and then dared other teams to offer more.

    Cano should have been extended through his option-years earlier on; he was clearly a top talent and a potential Hall of Fame player. They penny-pinched and gambled on the market not being there for that level of player.

    And the team has paid the price for that in the win column since Cano left.

    I hope they do not do the same thing with Tanaka.
    I guess you were not paying attention back then... The Yanks wanted to talk and BORAS made it a stipulation that talks stop if the option years are NOT thrown out..

    The Yanks had 3 more years at 15 mil/year.. they were not going down to 1 and 10 with 25...

    remember... it takes 2 to come to an agreement... both parties had to agree... first robbie's side was unwilling to bend.. later.. the Yanks refused to go BEYOND what they set for a limit... Seattle had to as NOBODY wants to go there.. he actually got less money/year there.. but he got his 10 years.. Yanks refused to go past 7... for good reason.. yes, I could see Trout and Harper at 10 years... but they're many years before 30 when signed.. Robbie was already there.. Yanks have had enough long term deals become problems as they near 40 (Jeter, A-Rod, CC) they were not going there again... time will tell just how right they were... or were not.
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  3. #1893
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    My recollection as well. Halfhearted effort at best. Possibly one of the worst decisions FO has made in recent memory, compounded by the signing of Ells, too much money @ too long a term.
    I agree on Ells.. yes it was less money than they offered Robbie.. but his track record was not where near as good... 1 really good year and a bunch of solid... Gardy's deal should have been the benchmark. They've mostly been the same type of player with similar stat lines.. though I prefer gardy
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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  4. #1894
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyi View Post
    On Cano - I believe with all my heart that if the Yankees would have offered Cano 8 years and $200 million and he would have accepted it and Ellsbury would have went to Seattle.
    I absolutely agree.

    I had the distinct sense that if the Yankees were willing to bend a little, Robbie would take his $200MM and combine it with plagues in Cooperstown and the outfield.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    I guess you were not paying attention back then... The Yanks wanted to talk and BORAS made it a stipulation that talks stop if the option years are NOT thrown out..

    The Yanks had 3 more years at 15 mil/year.. they were not going down to 1 and 10 with 25...
    Robbie's option years were $14MM for 2012 and $15MM for 2013.

    He put up a 7.6 fWAR and 5.8 fWAR respectively in those seasons.

    That is a combined market value nearing $95MM from that man and the Front Office decided they would rather let him walk instead of giving him a raise?

    And what exactly did the Yankees get for their stubbornness?

    Robinson Cano was paid, because he had all of the leverage in the situation, and the Yankees had a crater at second-base that is just dragging itself back over replacement level for the first time this season.

    And Cano is not Alex.

    Alex's deal was foolish and proved a bad decision in the long run.

    However, that was due to the combination of the suspension and the injury.

    A 39-year old AROD put up 0.250 BA|33HR|83 RBI|2.7 fWAR season in 2015.

    There were only 2-seasons where he failed to put up at least 2 WAR and those were 2013 and 2016.

    Yes, large long-term deals eventually shift the profit balance in favor of the player....so what?

    A solid player of Cano's caliber can be expected to put up solid years until his mid to late 30s.

    Two years of earning $25MM AAV with sub-replacement level production from one guy does not negate the half-decade of excellence you received from him during his prime.

    That is the cost of doing business. Always has been and likely will remain so for a long time to come.

    That is until someone with deep pockets has the cojones to finally offer a 4/$140MM to a major player like Kershaw or Harper to attempt and secure a championship run.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  5. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    I absolutely agree.

    I had the distinct sense that if the Yankees were willing to bend a little, Robbie would take his $200MM and combine it with plagues in Cooperstown and the outfield.


    Robbie's option years were $14MM for 2012 and $15MM for 2013.

    He put up a 7.6 fWAR and 5.8 fWAR respectively in those seasons.

    That is a combined market value nearing $95MM from that man and the Front Office decided they would rather let him walk instead of giving him a raise?

    And what exactly did the Yankees get for their stubbornness?

    Robinson Cano was paid, because he had all of the leverage in the situation, and the Yankees had a crater at second-base that is just dragging itself back over replacement level for the first time this season.

    And Cano is not Alex.

    Alex's deal was foolish and proved a bad decision in the long run.

    However, that was due to the combination of the suspension and the injury.

    A 39-year old AROD put up 0.250 BA|33HR|83 RBI|2.7 fWAR season in 2015.

    There were only 2-seasons where he failed to put up at least 2 WAR and those were 2013 and 2016.

    Yes, large long-term deals eventually shift the profit balance in favor of the player....so what?

    A solid player of Cano's caliber can be expected to put up solid years until his mid to late 30s.

    Two years of earning $25MM AAV with sub-replacement level production from one guy does not negate the half-decade of excellence you received from him during his prime.

    That is the cost of doing business. Always has been and likely will remain so for a long time to come.

    That is until someone with deep pockets has the cojones to finally offer a 4/$140MM to a major player like Kershaw or Harper to attempt and secure a championship run.
    Actually.. at the time almost everyone in baseball felt that the Yanks were bidding against themselves...Seattle was a last minute surprise that nobody saw coming.. in the weeks that followed every "insider" and GM asked agreed... They felt NY was bidding against NY and NY ONLY... Seattle surprised all..

    Yes, I know many felt that the Yanks should be bent... but what has that gained them.. Short term it hurts... but in years 8, 9 & 10.. I'm sure many will be saying the Yanks won that deal.. Heck.. even years 6 & 7 may be a win for NY... This is 2017, not 2000.. the PEDs are gone.. so ~ age 35.. players go downhill.. Many better than robbie have had it happen.. and few outside of the PED years were able to excell beyond age 35...

    So, Using history as a guide (and not your hearts as fans)... The Yanks will probably go down as the winners... oh.. not arguing that in the first 3-6 years.. Seattle would ... but the last few years... Sorry to say but history and mother nature/father time is NOT on Robbie's side..

    So he got his 10 years... right now.. I'm not sure he'll ever sniff the playoffs again.. We barely hear about him (what's that going to do to his HOF chances?????no doubt you have a better chance in bigger media markets)... in NY he was always in the news.. in Seattle.. nobody knows about it.. So who won?

    Ask again 5 years after that deal has expired.. you will probably have a different answer than you do today...
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  6. #1896
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    There is an abiding bias on PSD in that contracts are judged successes or failiures based almost entirely on whether the balance of the proft-loss calculation on a year-to-year basis on a straight payroll budget calculation favors the player or the team.

    If it favors the team, it is assumed to be a success. If it favors the player, a failure.

    I have always found this an interesting phenomenon, especially here on the Yankees subforum where it seems half of the post-season and off-season comments are about how the Yankees should break the bank and lock up every single generational talent that is going to hit free-agency.

    The reality is that the financial markets of Major League Baseball are not that simple.

    Every single team understands that a player's age 27-31 seasons are going to be their most successful and most profitable, that their age 32-36 seasons will be less so, and that the age 37 and later seasons are almost entirely decline years.

    Very, very lucky teams manage to bring generational talents up in their early 20s and add half a decade of excellence at literal league minimum salaries.

    In Free Agency the price of securing a genertational talent's age 32-36 seasons comes at the Opportunity Cost of taking on the risk of that player's age +37 decline years.

    Every single team in baseball is aware of this, thus the push for younger, cost-controlled, talent.

    Those teams that want to secure such talents through Free Agency have to accept the cost of decline years, period.

    It is literally the cost of doing business. And there will always be a team willing to take it all on.

    Which is why extending such players early and preventing them from hitting Free-Agency is important.

    Imagine a scenario in which the Yankees Front Office accepted Boras's stipulaitons and successfully offered Cano a 10 year deal that began with his age 29-season in 2012.

    Cano has compiled 29.5 fWAR since the beginning of the 2012 season; that would be the first six-years of a hypothetical 10-year contract.

    Even at a standard rate of decline (roughly 0.5 WAR/season), Robbie could be expected to tally another 9 WAR over the remaining four-seasons, for a contract total of 38.5 fWAR.

    On a 10/$250MM the Yankees would break even on the deal by year 7 or 8.

    At a more aggressive decline the Yankees would break even by year 10 or lose a few million.

    Over the course of a decade.

    That is a loss a franchise like the Yankees can manage on the payroll side; especially if Robbie helps push the team into a post-season run at any point during the contract.

    If you are not willing to absorb the decline phase of a generational talent then you have two options:
    1) Extend said player before they hit free-agency at that season's market prices.
    2) Never sign said players in Free-Agency and pass on them after they turn 30.

    Those are the only two options. And as Seattle proved, someone will be willing to absorb the decline years to secure the immediate boost to their win totals.

    For a team like the Yankees that is looking to return to the post-season on a consistent basis, the value-added of someone like Robinson Cano anchoring that line-up more than makes up for the potential for a few million dollars loss over the course of a decade.

    A single deep post-season run will create enough of a profit that any such loses will be eliminated on an organizational level.

    But we do not talk about actual baseball finances when we look at these things, we simplify it to payroll #s.

    And that is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

    Signing Miguel Cabrera to an 8/$248MM extension that begins with his age 33 season is bad baseball finance. That is true. You should never offer a one-dimensional player entering his decline years a massive deal that stretches into his early 40s.

    That was not the situation with Robinson Cano.

    When Aaron Judge hits free-agency in 2023 he will be 31-years old.

    If he develops into a what we all want him to be, an All-Star with occasional MVP caliber years, he will be in the exact same position as Cano.

    Are we already advocating letting guys like Judge and Sanchez walk because we do not want to deal with 2-3 bad years?
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  7. #1897
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    Ask again 5 years after that deal has expired.. you will probably have a different answer than you do today...
    My answer today takes this into account.

    NYY 2B (2014-2017): 0.251 BA|77 HR|304 RBI|0.299 wOBA|85 wRC+|2.1 fWAR
    Cano (2015): 0.287 BA|21 HR|79 RBI|0.335 wOBA|116 wRC+|2.1 fWAR

    Do you see that?

    The season that people pointed to on this board as proof that Cano's deal was a bust was better than the entire cumulative efforts of all Yankee Second-Basemen since Cano left the Bronx.

    Sometimes the call that saves you the most money is not the right decision, it is just the cheap one.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  8. #1898
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    I just imagine..this year could have been

    LF: Gardner
    CF: Hicks
    RF: Judge
    3B: Head
    SS: Didi
    2B: Cano
    1B: Bird
    C: Sanchez
    DH: Holliday

    Gardner
    Didi
    Cano
    Judge
    Sanchez
    Bird
    Holliday
    Head
    Hicks

    Obviously wouldn't be exactly like that, however.. My lord that is an extremely deep line up. World series caliber line up.

  9. #1899
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    I don't think swapping in Bob got Castro makes much difference. But Bob sure as hell would've been an upgrade over Brian Roberts and Nancy Drew

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  10. #1900
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    I don't think swapping in Bob got Castro makes much difference. But Bob sure as hell would've been an upgrade over Brian Roberts and Nancy Drew

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    I like Castro, I really do, going back to his days with the Cubs.

    But realistically, we are talking about a 0.280 BA|98 wRC+|2 WAR guy versus Robinson Cano.

    The difference is huge. Castro's best season in the majors was about as good as Swisher's worst season in New York. And Castro is far from in peak form any more.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  11. #1901
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    I don't think swapping in Bob got Castro makes much difference. But Bob sure as hell would've been an upgrade over Brian Roberts and Nancy Drew

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    Fake news.

  12. #1902
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    My answer today takes this into account.

    NYY 2B (2014-2017): 0.251 BA|77 HR|304 RBI|0.299 wOBA|85 wRC+|2.1 fWAR
    Cano (2015): 0.287 BA|21 HR|79 RBI|0.335 wOBA|116 wRC+|2.1 fWAR

    Do you see that?

    The season that people pointed to on this board as proof that Cano's deal was a bust was better than the entire cumulative efforts of all Yankee Second-Basemen since Cano left the Bronx.

    Sometimes the call that saves you the most money is not the right decision, it is just the cheap one.
    It's clear that you are a fan.. you think like a fan.. you have NO CONCEPT of the business side of the equation... which is normal.. since you don't work in the front office..

    Yes, Cano has been batter.. BIG FLIPPIN DEAL.. The real loser here is going to be Robbie..if looking at things right now are any indication.. Seattle is a few years away from the playoffs... if he ever sees them again.. so he got his 10 years.. on a losing team.. he could have had 7 on a winner... to be bleepin honest.. People don't play for any other reason to win.. the difference between 175 and 240..let's be honest.. I will ASSUME that we are both middle class (could be wrong, that would change the numbers a bit).. so assuming we make 100,000 annually, even 1 million/year is 10 years salary for us.. the reality is.. unless he runs into another Bernie Madhoff.. the difference between those two numbers he should never be able to spend.. and neither should his kids.. it's just his EGO.. Not to mention that Seattle will be paying for what will probably be his least productive years of his career.. and they may be on par with that Stephan Drew guy we put up with... time will tell.

    So what.. YOU THINK the yanks should have signed him.. The Yanks set a limit and stuck with it.. LIVE WITH IT ALREADY... THE TRAITOR HAS LEFT THE BUILDING... You whine like a little girl because you didn't get what you wanted.. "they should have locked him up"... THEY DID .. but that seems to be ignored that they signed him before he hit arbitration and locked him up for what was not the normal 6 years.. but in fact 9... 9 of his statiscally 10 best years.. Problem is.. he's played for 13 and counting...

    His best years were 2009 - 2014.. his last years in NY and 1 in seattle... His numbers have been going down since... is that injuries? The Stadium? I don't know.. but it seems to me, the Yanks had him for his peak years.. and now he's in decline.. slowly, but decline non-the-less... and in the next 2 years, that will accelerate... So what if the Yanks could have had better.. Robbie also has been on teams with worse records too... I think the real loser is Robbie.. the Yanks rank 3rd.. Seattle will be rated after the deal expires.. but my guess is they will either bump robbie down or fall into second place.. Depending upon just how quickly that decline occurs..

    It's also nice to see you use a lump all of the yankee 2nd basemen when over the last two years, Starlin has been as good number wise as robbie.. So in effect, they went backwards for 2 years only (Stephan drew was BAAAAD!).. and currently, Castro's numbers this year in many ways are better than Robbies.. in others Robs are better.. a PUSH is what it's called..

    So get over it.. the Yanks only went backwards for 2 years... and going forward with the likes of Torres and castro.. well.. they are still getting to their best years.. Robbies are in the rear view mirror already...

    No, sorry but your arguments are clearly flawed.. because you want them to be... I can agree that the Yanks got the short end in 2014 and 2015... so bad that it brings Starlin's numbers down (Drew's might as well have been negative)... but if you compare year to year.. the Yanks are already in a similar spot.. and with Torres on the horizon.. well when robbie goes into steeper decline (and he will), Torres will be going up.. then you'll have to eat your words... Because the Yanks are already getting as good for half the price.. and soon.. small fractions when Torres finally gets here...

    To be honest.. The Yanks around him would not have been all that good anyway.. Derek's last season was Horrid... obscenely on defense... and A-Rod didn't win any fans either.. and some of the other guys were bad too... Yeah.. Ells has not set any records.. though rumor has it.. the offer to Ells was made before Seattle jumped in.. just looked like a backup plan due to the timing of the announcement.. how true that is.. well, I'll have to take the FO's word for it.. Because they and Ells are the only ones who really know.. and that's what the FO says..

    So, this is the Yankee forum.. stop talking about Seattle players PLEASE.. he's gone.. he's not coming back.. and frankly, right now they yanks are better going forward for that.. Good player still.. yes... worth $15 million more than Starlin Castro this year? I don't think so... $17 million more than Starlin last year.. not really... I will agree... $30 million more than the nuts we had in 2014/5... (each year.. Drew was bad enough for negative number ratings).. but it's a 10 year deal.. Were only in year 4... and in 2 of those years.. the Yanks got pretty decent production for less than half the $$$$$... no.. the yanks are already winning that move..
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  13. #1903
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    It's clear that you are a fan.. you think like a fan.. you have NO CONCEPT of the business side of the equation... which is normal.. since you don't work in the front office..

    Yes, Cano has been batter.. BIG FLIPPIN DEAL.. The real loser here is going to be Robbie..if looking at things right now are any indication.. Seattle is a few years away from the playoffs... if he ever sees them again.. so he got his 10 years.. on a losing team.. he could have had 7 on a winner... to be bleepin honest.. People don't play for any other reason to win.. the difference between 175 and 240..let's be honest.. I will ASSUME that we are both middle class (could be wrong, that would change the numbers a bit).. so assuming we make 100,000 annually, even 1 million/year is 10 years salary for us.. the reality is.. unless he runs into another Bernie Madhoff.. the difference between those two numbers he should never be able to spend.. and neither should his kids.. it's just his EGO.. Not to mention that Seattle will be paying for what will probably be his least productive years of his career.. and they may be on par with that Stephan Drew guy we put up with... time will tell.

    So what.. YOU THINK the yanks should have signed him.. The Yanks set a limit and stuck with it.. LIVE WITH IT ALREADY... THE TRAITOR HAS LEFT THE BUILDING... You whine like a little girl because you didn't get what you wanted.. "they should have locked him up"... THEY DID .. but that seems to be ignored that they signed him before he hit arbitration and locked him up for what was not the normal 6 years.. but in fact 9... 9 of his statiscally 10 best years.. Problem is.. he's played for 13 and counting...

    His best years were 2009 - 2014.. his last years in NY and 1 in seattle... His numbers have been going down since... is that injuries? The Stadium? I don't know.. but it seems to me, the Yanks had him for his peak years.. and now he's in decline.. slowly, but decline non-the-less... and in the next 2 years, that will accelerate... So what if the Yanks could have had better.. Robbie also has been on teams with worse records too... I think the real loser is Robbie.. the Yanks rank 3rd.. Seattle will be rated after the deal expires.. but my guess is they will either bump robbie down or fall into second place.. Depending upon just how quickly that decline occurs..

    It's also nice to see you use a lump all of the yankee 2nd basemen when over the last two years, Starlin has been as good number wise as robbie.. So in effect, they went backwards for 2 years only (Stephan drew was BAAAAD!).. and currently, Castro's numbers this year in many ways are better than Robbies.. in others Robs are better.. a PUSH is what it's called..

    So get over it.. the Yanks only went backwards for 2 years... and going forward with the likes of Torres and castro.. well.. they are still getting to their best years.. Robbies are in the rear view mirror already...

    No, sorry but your arguments are clearly flawed.. because you want them to be... I can agree that the Yanks got the short end in 2014 and 2015... so bad that it brings Starlin's numbers down (Drew's might as well have been negative)... but if you compare year to year.. the Yanks are already in a similar spot.. and with Torres on the horizon.. well when robbie goes into steeper decline (and he will), Torres will be going up.. then you'll have to eat your words... Because the Yanks are already getting as good for half the price.. and soon.. small fractions when Torres finally gets here...

    To be honest.. The Yanks around him would not have been all that good anyway.. Derek's last season was Horrid... obscenely on defense... and A-Rod didn't win any fans either.. and some of the other guys were bad too... Yeah.. Ells has not set any records.. though rumor has it.. the offer to Ells was made before Seattle jumped in.. just looked like a backup plan due to the timing of the announcement.. how true that is.. well, I'll have to take the FO's word for it.. Because they and Ells are the only ones who really know.. and that's what the FO says..

    So, this is the Yankee forum.. stop talking about Seattle players PLEASE.. he's gone.. he's not coming back.. and frankly, right now they yanks are better going forward for that.. Good player still.. yes... worth $15 million more than Starlin Castro this year? I don't think so... $17 million more than Starlin last year.. not really... I will agree... $30 million more than the nuts we had in 2014/5... (each year.. Drew was bad enough for negative number ratings).. but it's a 10 year deal.. Were only in year 4... and in 2 of those years.. the Yanks got pretty decent production for less than half the $$$$$... no.. the yanks are already winning that move..
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  14. #1904
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    Cano must have pissed in this dude cereal, numerous times. Super salty about cano leaving.

    I don't blame cano. That's a boat load of cash on the table from Seattle. Deal like that gets taken 999 times out if 1,000.

  15. #1905
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    It's clear that you are a fan.. you think like a fan.. you have NO CONCEPT of the business side of the equation... which is normal.. since you don't work in the front office..
    My evaluation was based on a clear understanding of the aging curves of players, took into account the inflation of free-agent pricing in the modern market for baseball players, acknowledged that simple payroll discussions are an oversimplification of the money-side of the equation, and recognized that such a thing as an opportunity cost exists when securing generational talents, a fact reflected in every major deal in the last two decades of baseball.

    Yours complains that Cano is a "traitor," he is never going to the post-season again, and that he is too rich or something, while claiming that Starlin Castro is just as good and even better than Cano this season.

    And yet I am the "fan" who cannot see the way baseball actually works.

    Nothing in your rant managed to address the actual evalution I offered.

    You claim that Castro has been just as good as Cano.

    That is patently false; Cano's 2017 has been as good as Castro's 2016 & 2017 combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    So what.. YOU THINK the yanks should have signed him.. The Yanks set a limit and stuck with it.. LIVE WITH IT ALREADY... THE TRAITOR HAS LEFT THE BUILDING... You whine like a little girl because you didn't get what you wanted.. "they should have locked him up"... THEY DID .. but that seems to be ignored that they signed him before he hit arbitration and locked him up for what was not the normal 6 years.. but in fact 9... 9 of his statiscally 10 best years.. Problem is.. he's played for 13 and counting...

    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    His best years were 2009 - 2014.. his last years in NY and 1 in seattle... His numbers have been going down since... is that injuries? The Stadium? I don't know.. but it seems to me, the Yanks had him for his peak years.. and now he's in decline..]
    Decline?

    Cano had one down year, two All-Star caliber seasons, and this season is another solid +3 win campaign.

    Hell of a decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    It's also nice to see you use a lump all of the yankee 2nd basemen when over the last two years, Starlin has been as good number wise as robbie.. So in effect, they went backwards for 2 years only (Stephan drew was BAAAAD!).. and currently, Castro's numbers this year in many ways are better than Robbies.. in others Robs are better.. a PUSH is what it's called..
    Thr ignorance shown here is immense.

    1) Cano has played an average of 158 Games & 685 PAs a season through his first three-years in Seattle. Yankee second-basemen as a group averged just 42 PAs more a year over that same period. The comparison is apt and if anything in favor of the NYY squad. Normalized to 600 PAs makes it worse.

    2) Starlin Castro is not "as good number wise as robbie." His 2016 campaign was barely above-replacement level (1.1 fWAR) and this season he has failed to stay on the field turning what was the best offensive run of his career into just an "ok" 2 fWAR season. And I may just be a blind "fan" but I doubt a man with a career 0.322 BAbip is going to sustatin a number 40-points higher beyond this streak.

    Not really interested in parsing through the rest of that rant to reinterpret it into real points, there were really none beyond "traitors sux!" and "prospects will always be great!"

    One question though: If Starlin Castro is just as good as Robbie why did one secure a $240MM contract while the other was shipped out of town for a single year rental of Adam Warren?
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

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