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  1. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by kj244 View Post
    Nobody is going to let a pitcher with top of the rotation potential to hit and risk injury.
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    You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear.

  2. #1877
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I think the Arod situation was way different he was already in his mid 30's and wanted the biggest contract in history. I see similarities to the CC contract but again he was also in his mid 30's, wanted an extension through his age 37 season and wanted top of the market dollars as well..

    Prior to the beginning of this yr Tanaka had put up ace like numbers and had been a stud for us. He has proven he can handle pitching for us, which not all pitchers are able to do. Yeah he had a rough first half but since the 2nd half has started he has rounded back into typical Tanaka form. He's and Sevy could make a hell of a 1-2 punch, especially in the playoffs.

    I know the elbow is a concern but from everything i'm hearing is if he opts out he'll be lucky to get the same AAV he's getting now. If we could extend him for a total of 5yrs and 110-120M I don't think it would be the worst thing especially with as hard as it is get front of the the rotation starters. A 5yr deal would take him through his 34 yr old season so it wouldn't be like we would be getting him in his declining yrs.

    This team is set up to be serious contenders for an extended period of time but we need starting pitching and at least this off season, unless they can get Otani i think he's still our best option. Even with the concern about his elbow and i really don't think it far fetched to think a team like to Cubs would gladly jump in and take him off our hands

    I would just be very curious to know what their plans are to replace him if he opts out and they just let him walk.
    You can call it what you want.. but the facts still remain... The NYYankee front office has publicly admitted that if he opts out, they WON'T be talking to him.. they did the same with A-Rod and the only other opt out clause they've dealt with was CC.. that they bought out his clause...

    I don't care if Tanaka is a GOD... the Yankees have stated that if he exercises it, he won't be a Yankee next year... If history is any guide... He WON'T be a Yankee next season. George is not alive anymore to go begging to like A-Rod did... His kids don't make decisions based on their being a fan as much as it's a business.. don't expect anything different come the offseason. I dont' care if Tanaka is Sandy Koufax reborn... He opts out.. and the Yanks won't be making any offers.
    My 3 Favorite teams...
    1. The NY Yankees
    2. The Colorado Rockies
    3. Whoever is playing the Red Sox tonight!

  3. #1878
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    You can call it what you want.. but the facts still remain... The NYYankee front office has publicly admitted that if he opts out, they WON'T be talking to him.. they did the same with A-Rod and the only other opt out clause they've dealt with was CC.. that they bought out his clause...

    I don't care if Tanaka is a GOD... the Yankees have stated that if he exercises it, he won't be a Yankee next year... If history is any guide... He WON'T be a Yankee next season. George is not alive anymore to go begging to like A-Rod did... His kids don't make decisions based on their being a fan as much as it's a business.. don't expect anything different come the offseason. I dont' care if Tanaka is Sandy Koufax reborn... He opts out.. and the Yanks won't be making any offers.
    You should make a bet, if they do, you don't ever post here again.

  4. #1879
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    When I heard that the Front Office would be willing to let Tanaka walk if he opts out, while considering giving Sabathia another guaranteed year in the rotation I just shook my head.

    First of all, Masahiro Tanaka is a 28-year old Front End starter.
    Despite his injury concerns, Tanaka has compiled 644 IP in pinstripes to the tune of a 50-26|3.46 ERA|3.32 FIP|12.3 fWAR career. That is a 3.5 to 4.0 win starter through a full season, meaning he is an established, AL East, #2.

    There is not a handful of those guys to pull from.

    Sonny Gray is one of those types of pitchers, without Tanaka's ceiling, and we all saw what it cost to get him.

    Second, Sevy's surge of success this season, while a welcome sight, is also not a guarantee of his future. It will be interesting to see how his arm holds up next season after jumping from 144 IP in 2016 to likely 180-200 IP by the end of this season + potential-post season.

    Finally, any thought of bringing Sabathia back next season needs to be banished for all eternity.

    That is idiotic.

    Absolutely, 100%, "I want to save $, forgetting winning ball games," stupid.

    I really want to see the Yankees extend Tank for about 5-years around his current AAV and then see if we can draw Otani here.

    A rotation of Otani/Tanaka/Gray/Severino/Montgomery looks pretty Championship caliber to me.

    Assuming of course, that the Front Office is building towards a Championship.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  5. #1880
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    When I heard that the Front Office would be willing to let Tanaka walk if he opts out, while considering giving Sabathia another guaranteed year in the rotation I just shook my head.

    First of all, Masahiro Tanaka is a 28-year old Front End starter.
    Despite his injury concerns, Tanaka has compiled 644 IP in pinstripes to the tune of a 50-26|3.46 ERA|3.32 FIP|12.3 fWAR career. That is a 3.5 to 4.0 win starter through a full season, meaning he is an established, AL East, #2.

    There is not a handful of those guys to pull from.

    Sonny Gray is one of those types of pitchers, without Tanaka's ceiling, and we all saw what it cost to get him.

    Second, Sevy's surge of success this season, while a welcome sight, is also not a guarantee of his future. It will be interesting to see how his arm holds up next season after jumping from 144 IP in 2016 to likely 180-200 IP by the end of this season + potential-post season.

    Finally, any thought of bringing Sabathia back next season needs to be banished for all eternity.

    That is idiotic.

    Absolutely, 100%, "I want to save $, forgetting winning ball games," stupid.

    I really want to see the Yankees extend Tank for about 5-years around his current AAV and then see if we can draw Otani here.

    A rotation of Otani/Tanaka/Gray/Severino/Montgomery looks pretty Championship caliber to me.

    Assuming of course, that the Front Office is building towards a Championship.
    I pretty much agree with you, walking away from a 28 yr old Tanaka, who like you said is a legit AL East #2 with a higher ceiling in favor of a 38 yr old CC is ludicrous. If they can extend Tanaka to a five yr deal with a similar AAV, even with his arm concerns it would be idiotic. Guys like him don't grow on trees and to acquire one isn't cheap, look what they had to give up for Grey. Sevy has taken a massive step forward towards being an ace but he's still only 23 and could hit some speed bumps along the way. Tanaka is by far the best option to pair with Sevy, even if Otani comes over. IMO if/when Otani comes over he should be their top priority and do whatever they have to too sign him. That said keeping Tanaka as long as its a reasonable price and a 5yr deal shouldn't be to far behind. Our focus should be on adding or retaining our young and elite pitching.

    I love the Yanks but they have a couple stupid *** rules they need to change. Not extending young players when it could save them huge huge amounts of money down the road. Refusing to extend players before their contracts are up and letting them hit the open market needs to change also. We could have keep Cano on a 6-7 yr deal for less than 25m a yr, instead we ended up losing a future HOF 2nd baseman for NOTHING and ended up with Ells who it looks like we are going to have to eat a huge portion of his deal, that he never came close to living up to, so we can open up his 25 man spot and playing time in favor of C Frazier

    It seems like Hal has let Cashman make the majority of the big decisions the last couple yrs and he's done a hell of a job but if they let Tanaka walk over an outdated Yankee rule without a legit back up plan when we need front line pitching would be a huge mistake IMO

  6. #1881
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    The Yankee Front Office rule of not extending young players before their contracts expire is an antiquated and foolhardy concept, utterly out of place in the modern game of baseball.

    Free Agent prices are soaring through the roof; $8MM a win in Free Agency for premium positions. Trade chip prices are keeping pace, with top prospects being needed to move guys like Sonny Gray. And on top of all that more and more teams are willing to offer large contracts to big players. We have seen the Tigers, the Marlins, and the Mariners join the Angels, Dodgers, and Red Sox in handing out monster deals.

    The Yankees are no longer the evil empire, capable of out-bidding everyone all of the time.

    Just about any team in baseball can match our offers for one player thanks to TV Deals and the long-term consequences of the Front Office spending on the wrong kinds of guys over the last decade.

    The Front Office clearly wants to build a minimum salary team of young players with the prospect talent we have and avoid spending large amounts of money.

    It is not going to work when teams like the Red Sox or the Dodgers are willing to shell out big time prospects for a Chris Sale or Yu Darvish.

    Prospects lay the foundation. Free Agency fills in the gaps.

    That Robinson Cano is not a life-long Yankee is criminal. Letting him walk was a momentous mistake. The last time I checked the #s Robbie had literally out-played Yankee second-basemen since the deal to the tune of 14 Wins in his favor.

    We cannot let another major talent like Tanaka walk.

    There is no replacement out there for him.

    Darvish is two years older and going to cost $25MM easy.

    Lord knows what is going to happen with Otani.

    One would think that the success of Darvish, Kuroda, and Tanaka would convince the Front Office that these Japanese talents are the real deal. But who knows.

    I am not even sure the Yankees have enough funds to secure Otani if he comes over.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  7. #1882
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    You should make a bet, if they do, you don't ever post here again.

    Trust me. If he was Sandy Koufax reborn, he could name his price and they'd jump all over it.
    The REAL DEAL Yankee fan

  8. #1883
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    The Yankee Front Office rule of not extending young players before their contracts expire is an antiquated and foolhardy concept, utterly out of place in the modern game of baseball.

    Free Agent prices are soaring through the roof; $8MM a win in Free Agency for premium positions. Trade chip prices are keeping pace, with top prospects being needed to move guys like Sonny Gray. And on top of all that more and more teams are willing to offer large contracts to big players. We have seen the Tigers, the Marlins, and the Mariners join the Angels, Dodgers, and Red Sox in handing out monster deals.

    The Yankees are no longer the evil empire, capable of out-bidding everyone all of the time.

    Just about any team in baseball can match our offers for one player thanks to TV Deals and the long-term consequences of the Front Office spending on the wrong kinds of guys over the last decade.

    The Front Office clearly wants to build a minimum salary team of young players with the prospect talent we have and avoid spending large amounts of money.

    It is not going to work when teams like the Red Sox or the Dodgers are willing to shell out big time prospects for a Chris Sale or Yu Darvish.

    Prospects lay the foundation. Free Agency fills in the gaps.

    That Robinson Cano is not a life-long Yankee is criminal. Letting him walk was a momentous mistake. The last time I checked the #s Robbie had literally out-played Yankee second-basemen since the deal to the tune of 14 Wins in his favor.

    We cannot let another major talent like Tanaka walk.

    There is no replacement out there for him.

    Darvish is two years older and going to cost $25MM easy.

    Lord knows what is going to happen with Otani.

    One would think that the success of Darvish, Kuroda, and Tanaka would convince the Front Office that these Japanese talents are the real deal. But who knows.

    I am not even sure the Yankees have enough funds to secure Otani if he comes over.
    I know the Yankees traded for the maximum extra bonus pool money allowed under the new rules and only one really big time signing i believe it was for 1.25m so we have quite a bit of bonus pool money left over, last i read it was between 3.5-4m. I believe the absolute max bonus he could sign for is 8m but no one has anywhere close to that much left. I know the Soxs traded for a bunch of extra pool money but they also spent quite a bit of it and i believe all 3 of the Astros, Dodgers and Cubs are still under penalties that they can't signing anyone for more than 300k.

    IMO i don't think a couple of million in signing bonus is going to matter to Otani because of all the off field money he makes in Japan, also if he comes this yr he is fully aware of how much he is leaving on the table compared to if he waited till he was 25.

    I think the biggest reason he would come this yr is because he is going to be so cheap compared to what he would get as a true FA it gives him a massive amount of leverage. I don't see any team letting him either play the field or DH a couple days a week if they had just given him a 250m contract. For a bonus of a couple million and a rookie wage salary till he hits arbitration. To get that kinda arm at 23 into their rotation i believe teams will give him a chance to hit a couple days a week until he proves he can or can't hit MLB pitching.

    It may just be wishful thinking on my part but i would be shocked if the Yanks didn't go all in to sign him.
    Last edited by dayners81; 09-06-2017 at 05:10 PM.

  9. #1884
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    You should make a bet, if they do, you don't ever post here again.
    I'd consider it.. but you wouldn't join me... (or you'd reneg...) so why waste the time... look at how leo does it by changing his handle and going on... as Mary Poppins called it.. a pie crust promise.. easily made easily broken..
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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    2. The Colorado Rockies
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  10. #1885
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I pretty much agree with you, walking away from a 28 yr old Tanaka, who like you said is a legit AL East #2 with a higher ceiling in favor of a 38 yr old CC is ludicrous. If they can extend Tanaka to a five yr deal with a similar AAV, even with his arm concerns it would be idiotic. Guys like him don't grow on trees and to acquire one isn't cheap, look what they had to give up for Grey. Sevy has taken a massive step forward towards being an ace but he's still only 23 and could hit some speed bumps along the way. Tanaka is by far the best option to pair with Sevy, even if Otani comes over. IMO if/when Otani comes over he should be their top priority and do whatever they have to too sign him. That said keeping Tanaka as long as its a reasonable price and a 5yr deal shouldn't be to far behind. Our focus should be on adding or retaining our young and elite pitching.

    I love the Yanks but they have a couple stupid *** rules they need to change. Not extending young players when it could save them huge huge amounts of money down the road. Refusing to extend players before their contracts are up and letting them hit the open market needs to change also. We could have keep Cano on a 6-7 yr deal for less than 25m a yr, instead we ended up losing a future HOF 2nd baseman for NOTHING and ended up with Ells who it looks like we are going to have to eat a huge portion of his deal, that he never came close to living up to, so we can open up his 25 man spot and playing time in favor of C Frazier

    It seems like Hal has let Cashman make the majority of the big decisions the last couple yrs and he's done a hell of a job but if they let Tanaka walk over an outdated Yankee rule without a legit back up plan when we need front line pitching would be a huge mistake IMO
    The problem with Cano was not as easy as you make it out to being... His Agent, Mr. Boras was willing to talk extention prior, but only if the Yanks threw out their 2 option years... which the Yanks were unwilling to do.. (options at $15mil/year vs $25 mil... Yeah, they'd be crazy).. once that was stated, Boras recommended hitting UFA where he likes them... then he changed agents.. but the options were no longer a bargaining chip by then as Robbie was already playing under the last one. At that point.. Robbie was already on record that he wanted 10 years bottom line.. and the yanks were never going there again... A-Rod burned that out of them. They not only did try to extend him prior to the deal running out, they tried mid-season.. but were rejected. (not to mention, they signed him to a long term deal buying out his arbitration years after his second big league season...) So if you want to use Robbie as the poster child for change.. realize, with Robbie they not only DID what proposed.. they also Tried to extend him again and were rejected... it takes 2 to make a deal.. and the Yanks were willing... Robbie was NOT.. The Traitor.. May he never sniff the playoffs as long as he's playing under that contract.

    Seattle needed to overpay.. and they did with the 10 Year deal. I have no doubt that the first 5 years of that deal will be good... but the last few they will probably rue the day they signed it.. The Yanks held first at 7 years and even offered more $$$/season then Seattle.. but Robbie wanted his 10 years.. and he got them.. Congrats to him... Because I didn't expect it.. and neither did any of the so called insiders either.. Seattle surprised everyone.. but again.. they needed to.
    My 3 Favorite teams...
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    2. The Colorado Rockies
    3. Whoever is playing the Red Sox tonight!

  11. #1886
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    I'd consider it.. but you wouldn't join me... (or you'd reneg...) so why waste the time... look at how leo does it by changing his handle and going on... as Mary Poppins called it.. a pie crust promise.. easily made easily broken..
    Difference is, I don't insult people with different view points than mine. Like you do.

    So, I have no reason to. I never made such a bold statement worthy of a bet.

  12. #1887
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    Thanks to some recent trades, the Yankees have boosted their international pool money total from $4.75MM to $8MM, which could help them reel in Otani. However the rule changes in the collective bargaining agreement have opened the door for low payroll teams to enter the bidding.
    “Farts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” — Aldous Huxley
    "Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts."--- Albert Einstein



  13. #1888
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    Difference is, I don't insult people with different view points than mine. Like you do.

    So, I have no reason to. I never made such a bold statement worthy of a bet.
    The real question though is... is my statement (which is nothing more than repeating what the Yankee Front Office has ALREADY GONE PUBLIC WITH) all that bold? The only people I truly insult live in Boston and root for those teams... (empty beer cans have more brain cells... )

    I state my views... sometimes the Yanks do other things... does not mean I'm wrong.. just that the Yanks didn't agree... and on some things.. I love being wrong.. like my expectation that the Yanks won't go past the ALDS (I would love to be wrong on that one)

    I don't agree with many of you on Otani on a few things... 1. This guy has yet to throw 1 pitch in North America... some of you have him ready for the HOF... If the Yanks sign him, I hope he gets there.. but right now, hes got just as good a chance at being Kei Igawa as he does being Hiroki Kuroda.. or even better.. and even thinking that GM's will give a rats about his desire to bat.. that's not subject to contract.. that's up to the field Manager (I.E. Joe Girardi... NOT Brian Cashman ).. Fact is.. the only way he'll guarantee himself to bat would be to sign a deal in the NL... even still, there's no saying that he'll be all that good once he gets here.. many have not panned out.. Kuroda, Tanaka, and Darvish are the majority of the complete list of Japanese pitchers who have succeeded here. There have been many who have done OK.. nothing special, just bullpen arms that get the job done more often than not.. but the list of failures is pretty big.. and some of them with bigger names... Igawa, that guy that George called a fat toad... Matsuzaka.. etc..

    So I"m not ready to anoint him yet.. in away glad of the signing restrictions.. keeps the Yanks and others from doing something stupid with unproven talent.. (hey, even great pitchers at AAA level have been known to fail too... )
    My 3 Favorite teams...
    1. The NY Yankees
    2. The Colorado Rockies
    3. Whoever is playing the Red Sox tonight!

  14. #1889
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    The problem with Cano was not as easy as you make it out to being...
    I would disagree. The Yankees made no efforts to really engage with Cano for an extension. The refusal to exchange the option years meant the Front Office was drawing a line they knew Boras was not willing to accept.

    Afterwards, they basically offered Cano a "Take it or leave it" deal at 7-years and then dared other teams to offer more.

    Cano should have been extended through his option-years earlier on; he was clearly a top talent and a potential Hall of Fame player. They penny-pinched and gambled on the market not being there for that level of player.

    And the team has paid the price for that in the win column since Cano left.

    I hope they do not do the same thing with Tanaka.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  15. #1890
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    I would disagree. The Yankees made no efforts to really engage with Cano for an extension. The refusal to exchange the option years meant the Front Office was drawing a line they knew Boras was not willing to accept.

    Afterwards, they basically offered Cano a "Take it or leave it" deal at 7-years and then dared other teams to offer more.

    Cano should have been extended through his option-years earlier on; he was clearly a top talent and a potential Hall of Fame player. They penny-pinched and gambled on the market not being there for that level of player.

    And the team has paid the price for that in the win column since Cano left.

    I hope they do not do the same thing with Tanaka.
    My recollection as well. Halfhearted effort at best. Possibly one of the worst decisions FO has made in recent memory, compounded by the signing of Ells, too much money @ too long a term.
    “Farts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” — Aldous Huxley
    "Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts."--- Albert Einstein



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