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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Lmao gosh Mike get real. I am buying no narrative, as I literally go out of my way to avoid junk journalism like those first two sources you provided. All you need in order to know Alex went for broke is common sense and a minimum 10 years or so of following the sport to give you a bit of context as to how often prospects change hands. Honestly Mike I cannot believe you would provide those 2 articles to back your point.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    there's nothing wrong with the Bowden radio interview or did you miss the point of "how the club’s diminished farm system played into his thinking"

    and did you miss this

    That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    “Mark is a pretty direct guy and he was basically questioning giving up so many great prospects,” the team source said. “He basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.”

    remember the important part of that is when the trades happened Shapiro wasnt even hired yet

    what god damned right Shapiro have to second guess like that after the fact. come on JamieC. you know better. thats as disrespectful as it gets. its one thing to question what a guy does when youre his boss. but its another thing entirely to second guess things that happened before you even arrive.

    the only explanation is that Shapiro was setting up AA to be a fall guy

    that is made clear by this:

    "The circumstances and situation were something that I didn’t have control over, and that was something I had to manage through. Beyond this season, though, it’s going to get tricky, with an aging roster, some significant contract obligations, a farm system that has been thoroughly strip-mined......”

    he even admitted he had no control over things before he arrived but he made sure that he let people know where to put the blame for thoroughly stripmining the franchise.....why say it if you dont plan on using it as cover in the future?

    so yes youre buying it hook like and sinker. youre always saying that AA knew he was leaving when he made the trades but Shapiro, just said he had no control over....so as far as AA knew he wasnt going anywhere at theime the trades were made. AA didnt decide to leave until Shapiro dared to second guess him.......after the fact

    AA was rightfully insulted. anyone would be. you know it and I know it

    as quoted That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    Im surprised AA didnt haul off and punch him in the mouth

  2. #62
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    I think people on here really misinterpreted Shapiro's comments as to getting younger and more versatile. That's not going to happen overnight or through trades. Th only way that gets done is thru the draft and IFA. As to the FA signed this year, sure they signed guys in their mid thirties because they wanted to get the BPA. The signings of both Bautista and Pearce were looked at industry wise as great deals for the Jays.

    SP depth has really hurt us this year but when you led the league in SP pitching innings the year before, signing anyone remotely worthwhile isn't going to happen because of the perceived lack of chance at cracking the rotation. These guys were stuck between a rock and a hard place this past off season; it was a pretty thin FA class, they had no prospect capital to trade to obtain anything worthwhile, no prospects knocking on the door as injury replacements and bloated contracts to guys in their thirties. I hate losing as much as anyone but I am starting to hope these guys keep losing and everyone gets unloaded. This team needs a reset.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I think people on here really misinterpreted Shapiro's comments as to getting younger and more versatile. That's not going to happen overnight or through trades. Th only way that gets done is thru the draft and IFA. As to the FA signed this year, sure they signed guys in their mid thirties because they wanted to get the BPA. The signings of both Bautista and Pearce were looked at industry wise as great deals for the Jays.

    SP depth has really hurt us this year but when you led the league in SP pitching innings the year before, signing anyone remotely worthwhile isn't going to happen because of the perceived lack of chance at cracking the rotation. These guys were stuck between a rock and a hard place this past off season; it was a pretty thin FA class, they had no prospect capital to trade to obtain anything worthwhile, no prospects knocking on the door as injury replacements and bloated contracts to guys in their thirties. I hate losing as much as anyone but I am starting to hope these guys keep losing and everyone gets unloaded. This team needs a reset.
    Kenny no offense to you but one honest question? Would you have said that last October 5th..? See to me this is all revisionist history, if as you say their only way to correct things is the draft and IFA why sign Bautista at all...? Good deal or not he still cost them a 1st round pick.

    That's why I say pick a direction and go with it. Own the decision being wishy washy is never going to work.

    Basically they wasted $35M this off season which if what you say is true they could have used on Thames or on any number of young undervalued players out there looking for opportunity. Why clog the roster with mid 30's. When you could have signed a Chris Carter for less than half of what you gave Pearce and trade him at the deadline for prospects? One guy was the MLB hr leader and the other was a 34 year-old journeyman. And you gave Pearce 2 years to boot. Why give
    Morales 3 years? Why sign Latos or Gavin Floyd, weren't there any 25 year old minor league free agent starters looking for an opportunity?

    That's why I have repeatedly said pick a direction and own it. Their words and actions have been contradictory from the beginning. There's no way around it.

    Now they say they had no prospect capital, Now they point the finger at AA. But in the off-season they were gung ho signing Morales the second day of free agency.

    They chose the menu, they did the shopping, now they say the produce available wasn't the best quality, why buy it then?

    Oh and you're right fans will buy a reset, especially if given advance notice. Toronto is like NY. Full of savvy fans. Too bad Shapiro-Atkins didn't just come out and say this is what we need to do and not really pick a direction?

    My personal opinion is they knew what they wanted to do but were afraid of the fans reaction....So they played it halfway, knowing they could blame AA..
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-07-2017 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #64
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    Deals you would take back

    This is getting ridiculous.

    First, Shapiro had every right to question AA's deadline moves. When he was hired, the team was .500 or below. He would have set a strategy with ownership before and after he was hired. I'm positive that strategy would have been shared with AA. Instead, AA went for broke, knowing he likely wasn't going to be back, and traded away the majority of his minor league capital. Without a doubt that would have had huge impact on his strategy, and he was within his rights to be ticked about it.

    Second, when has Shapiro ever used AA as an excuse for this season? Name me one source where he has said "it's AA's fault we are in our current position".

    Third, we already established that Shapiro has made moves that would signal he was building to win again this year. The team just hasn't performed. That's not his fault.

    As a fan, I was happy AA made those moves and did what he did. But long term it was going to have an effect. We all knew that. But this isn't some grand scheme by Shapiro. And I really wish you would stop acting like it is. We've already lost a bunch of amazing posters, many because of your antics. Move on and enjoy the season, for better for worse.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcavy View Post
    This is getting ridiculous.

    First, Shapiro had every right to question AA's deadline moves. When he was hired, the team was .500 or below. He would have set a strategy with ownership before and after he was hired. I'm positive that strategy would have been shared with AA. Instead, AA went for broke, knowing he likely wasn't going to be back, and traded away the majority of his minor league capital. Without a doubt that would have had huge impact on his strategy, and he was within his rights to be ticked about it.

    Second, when has Shapiro ever used AA as an excuse for this season? Name me one source where he has said "it's AA's fault we are in our current position".

    Third, we already established that Shapiro has made moves that would signal he was building to win again this year. The team just hasn't performed. That's not his fault.

    As a fan, I was happy AA made those moves and did what he did. But long term it was going to have an effect. We all knew that. But this isn't some grand scheme by Shapiro. And I really wish you would stop acting like it is. We've already lost a bunch of amazing posters, many because of your antics. Move on and enjoy the season, for better for worse.
    What's ridiculous is You

    Are you an idiot?

    Obviously you must be. The trades were made at the deadline which was July 31st
    Shapiro wasn't hired until August 31st. Which was a month later. Because of tampering rules Shapiro could not even talk to anyone in the Jays front office before he was hired. Hence why he was quoted as saying things happened beyond his control.

    So since you don't even know how to use a calendar you are an idiot. You just proved it yourself

    I already provided the quotes which were verified by 2 sources. I gather you can't read either

    So
    A) learn to read
    B) have someone explain how to use a calendar to you

    Major League teams in all sports have tampering rules for a reason Shapiro couldn't even talk to the Jays front office personnel until he left the Indians and was hired by the Blue jays
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-07-2017 at 02:06 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    there's nothing wrong with the Bowden radio interview or did you miss the point of "how the club’s diminished farm system played into his thinking"

    and did you miss this

    That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    “Mark is a pretty direct guy and he was basically questioning giving up so many great prospects,” the team source said. “He basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.”

    remember the important part of that is when the trades happened Shapiro wasnt even hired yet

    what god damned right Shapiro have to second guess like that after the fact. come on JamieC. you know better. thats as disrespectful as it gets. its one thing to question what a guy does when youre his boss. but its another thing entirely to second guess things that happened before you even arrive.

    the only explanation is that Shapiro was setting up AA to be a fall guy

    that is made clear by this:

    "The circumstances and situation were something that I didn’t have control over, and that was something I had to manage through. Beyond this season, though, it’s going to get tricky, with an aging roster, some significant contract obligations, a farm system that has been thoroughly strip-mined......”

    he even admitted he had no control over things before he arrived but he made sure that he let people know where to put the blame for thoroughly stripmining the franchise.....why say it if you dont plan on using it as cover in the future?

    so yes youre buying it hook like and sinker. youre always saying that AA knew he was leaving when he made the trades but Shapiro, just said he had no control over....so as far as AA knew he wasnt going anywhere at theime the trades were made. AA didnt decide to leave until Shapiro dared to second guess him.......after the fact

    AA was rightfully insulted. anyone would be. you know it and I know it

    as quoted That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    Im surprised AA didnt haul off and punch him in the mouth

    Mike. Honestly. I listened to the Bowden interview. Shapiro said they didn't have a single arm in triple A to fill any of the possible holes at the major league level. Simple statement of fact. I waited for more, something, anything that you might see as ammunition in this dicussion and the next thing I knew they were talking about Syndergaard. Man you've got to be some kind of biased to find a way to take that as personal or something to take offense over. What kills me about this is that you keep talking about how dishonest they are coming across, and campaigning for the truth, and yet the moment you get it you guys twist it to fit your own agenda.

    As for the second part. Before we even get into whether Shapiro an incoming boss has a right to critique a present employee (of course he does), I want to suggest something that I'm not even sure you've ever considered, although you last response suggests to me that even if you had it wouldn't have mattered to you.

    Nonetheless. Mark Shapiro was a highly respected baseball exec long before he was brought to Toronto. Perhaps not for his GM ability but certainly as an executive. A manager of people. Now the term "scolded" brings to mind a parent wagging their finger in front of a toddler with a stern NO! (side note: think about how the use of words in the days that followed this very emotional event contributed to the emotion - does anyone think the reaction would have been as incidiary if the word(s) used was "questioned" or "was concerned about"?)

    Do you really believe the man brazenly went in there and chided him like a child? I'm not buying it. Do I think he may have mentioned that the farm was now short of near future talent to add to the big club? Sure, absolutely I do. It was. Do I think he may have expressed concern that Anthopolous shipped a fairly unprecented amount of prospects out in a short amount of time? Sure, absolutely I do. He did. Do I think Shapiro might have suggested it was a risk to ship out so much with no guarantee it would work? Possibly. If this conversation occurred when you are suggesting it did then we can't view it through the lens of a team that had just won a pennant. They hadn't. Big name acquisitions don't pan out the way GM's hope they will ALL THE TIME. Questioning the moves in light of this fact is not a crime.

    Now here is the key IMO. Even though I believe I am providing a pretty reasonable explanation for why this conversation was not likely indelicately handled and was not unreasonable, what matters most is how it is handled by Anthopolous. Nobody likes to have their choices questioned. He may very well have left that meeting feeling "scolded". And I'm sure Alex had his supporters within the organization, and somebody who feels offended or feels like they aren't being fairly judged almost certainly shares that feeling with at least a few others. Now step back a second. Have you ever been offended by something and later when you were less invested realized it wasn't the big deal it felt like at first? Aren't you responsible for the way you took it, moreso than the person who delivered the message. Of course you are.

    BTW Mike, you know I like you and think you seem like a very intelligent fan. But I think you need to stick to reading from more credible writers, some of the stuff you've shared is written by people who clearly are unable to be unbiased. Titles like "Reading between the lines of Mark Shapiro's comments" should be a dead giveaway and if you let every internet "sportswriter" shape your truth it's sure to be quite jaded.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #67
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    JamieC. Great reply and I agree with 95% of what you say, honestly I do. But here's where we disagree...I have a ton of experience in dealing with corporate executives, you know where I worked and much of what I did so trust me what I'm about to say is almost universal in corporate environments.

    One rule that they live by is what you see and say here....stays here..And you never ever second guess after the fact. It just isn't done.. why you ask? Because sooner or later in the corporate environment everyone will need another job. Everyone. No exceptions. What Shapiro did whether you know it or not was Castrate AA. You can call it whatever you like. But Shapiro was marking his turf. Ask any upper level executive you know.... That's the Golden Rule. You're smart JamieC go ask. If you find even one major corporation who doesn't follow that I'd be absolutely astounded.

    As a favor to me, you must know at least 1 executive at a major corporation. Ask them. Then tell me what they say. Setting down New best practices sure. But they do that in a group meeting so as to not point fingers. it allows people to save face. But never outright second guessing.

    As the new boss Shapiro had every right to state how he expected things to be handled going forward. But he had no right whatsoever to question the decisions made before he arrived.

    None. In doing that he crossed the line.

    Do I see things differently because of what I did in my career? Undoubtedly I do but in this case I think it has merit. To me AA' s silence on the matter ( he refuses to answer any and all questions about his reasons for leaving) is very telling.

    And I'll even go one step further in the cause of honesty. I'll admit I'm attributing motives that I can't prove. But I have seen this kind of thing before. I'd be a fool to ignore what I've seen and not tell you what it appears to be. You don't need to see the actual deer, when you see his tracks in the snow. the reason the Sources arent that good is because AA wont talk
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-07-2017 at 04:44 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    What's ridiculous is You

    Are you an idiot?

    Obviously you must be. The trades were made at the deadline which was July 31st
    Shapiro wasn't hired until August 31st. Which was a month later. Because of tampering rules Shapiro could not even talk to anyone in the Jays front office before he was hired. Hence why he was quoted as saying things happened beyond his control.

    So since you don't even know how to use a calendar you are an idiot. You just proved it yourself

    I already provided the quotes which were verified by 2 sources. I gather you can't read either

    So
    A) learn to read
    B) have someone explain how to use a calendar to you

    Major League teams in all sports have tampering rules for a reason Shapiro couldn't even talk to the Jays front office personnel until he left the Indians and was hired by the Blue jays
    I really don't have the patience to explain corporate hiring practices to you, because I know you won't listen.

    Shapiro was announced as Jays President on Aug 31, most likely he was hired weeks earlier. He would have also started the recruitment/hiring process months before. The Jays would have asked for permission to speak to Shapiro, and he would have presented a strategic vision, which would have been based on the Jays position at the time. That would have been the whole basis of the interview.

    Your quotes prove he was disappointed about the trades. That's all. He has never once put blame on AA for the teams performance. Not once. Find me that quote and I'll happily continue the conversation.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcavy View Post
    I really don't have the patience to explain corporate hiring practices to you, because I know you won't listen.

    Shapiro was announced as Jays President on Aug 31, most likely he was hired weeks earlier. He would have also started the recruitment/hiring process months before. The Jays would have asked for permission to speak to Shapiro, and he would have presented a strategic vision, which would have been based on the Jays position at the time. That would have been the whole basis of the interview.

    Your quotes prove he was disappointed about the trades. That's all. He has never once put blame on AA for the teams performance. Not once. Find me that quote and I'll happily continue the conversation.
    first off his hiring was done on the ownership level. he was still an employee of the indians. as such he was contractually enjoined from speaking to a any blue Jay employee until he was hired, for him to do so is in direct violation of MLB tampering rules under Article 2 section k:

    "(2)

    (k) TAMPERING
    . To preserve discipline and competition, and to prevent the
    enticement of players, coaches, managers and umpires, there shall be no negotiations or
    dealings respecting employment, either present or prospective, between any player, coach or
    manager and any Major or Minor League official, other than the Club with which the player is
    under contract, or acceptance of terms, or by which the player is reserved or which has the
    player on its Negotiation List, or between any umpire and any baseball employer other than
    the baseball employer with which the umpire is under contract, or acceptance of terms,
    unless the Club or baseball employer with which the person is connected shall have, in
    writing, expressly authorized such negotiations or dealings prior to their commencement."

    so no youre wrong. you dont have a clue about what youre talking about. the only people that shapiro could talk to were those the indians gave express in writing permission to.....the only people the indians would give that permission to would be to those who would hire him...hence ownership. not his perspective employees as that is a direct violation

    as such he couldnt talk to AA until he was hired August 31st, a full month after the trades. he couldnt say anything to Rogers either because he had a contractual responsibility to the indians as an employee not too.
    even if he thought the trades would destroy the blue Jays franchise, because that would put his current employer in a competitive disadvantage

    what do you think Shapiro was talking about when he said this:

    " Nothing was about decisions I made. I was walking into a situation that dramatically changed from when I made the decision to come here to the time I started working here. The circumstances and situation were something that I didn’t have control over, and that was something I had to manage through."

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb...faced-critics/

    meaning things changed in the interim, but legally he couldnt say anything. he was contractually as an indians employee not allowed to say anything. it probably pissed him off, but his hands were tied........

    he said so himself........

    you have no clue.....none whatsoever. you cant explain corporate hiring practices to me or anyone, because frankly you have no clue what they are. MLB has tampering rules for this very reason

    its their implementation of a corporate practice called "a Chinese Wall" if you really understood corporate practices you'd know that
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-07-2017 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    JamieC. Great reply and I agree with 95% of what you say, honestly I do. But here's where we disagree...I have a ton of experience in dealing with corporate executives, you know where I worked and much of what I did so trust me what I'm about to say is almost universal in corporate environments.

    One rule that they live by is what you see and say here....stays here..And you never ever second guess after the fact. It just isn't done.. why you ask? Because sooner or later in the corporate environment everyone will need another job. Everyone. No exceptions. What Shapiro did whether you know it or not was Castrate AA. You can call it whatever you like. But Shapiro was marking his turf. Ask any upper level executive you know.... That's the Golden Rule. You're smart JamieC go ask. If you find even one major corporation who doesn't follow that I'd be absolutely astounded.

    As a favor to me, you must know at least 1 executive at a major corporation. Ask them. Then tell me what they say. Setting down New best practices sure. But they do that in a group meeting so as to not point fingers. it allows people to save face. But never outright second guessing.

    As the new boss Shapiro had every right to state how he expected things to be handled going forward. But he had no right whatsoever to question the decisions made before he arrived.

    None. In doing that he crossed the line.

    Do I see things differently because of what I did in my career? Undoubtedly I do but in this case I think it has merit. To me AA' s silence on the matter ( he refuses to answer any and all questions about his reasons for leaving) is very telling.

    And I'll even go one step further in the cause of honesty. I'll admit I'm attributing motives that I can't prove. But I have seen this kind of thing before. I'd be a fool to ignore what I've seen and not tell you what it appears to be. You don't need to see the actual deer, when you see his tracks in the snow. the reason the Sources arent that good is because AA wont talk
    well hey, you know what they say. in the absence of evidence or actual fact, assume with conviction.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  11. #71
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    btw the question you asked in the post above about what shapiro was talking about... he was saying that people were viewing him as a villain because of what transpired over the summer. he was being villified or hated for things that he had nothing to do with, like it was his fault. why would you hold it against him for stating what we all witnessed here on this board? it was like jesus himself had left and satan was the new GM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    btw the question you asked in the post above about what shapiro was talking about... he was saying that people were viewing him as a villain because of what transpired over the summer. he was being villified or hated for things that he had nothing to do with, like it was his fault. why would you hold it against him for stating what we all witnessed here on this board? it was like jesus himself had left and satan was the new GM.
    yes I know, but he was also saying things were happening while he was negotiating with ownership that he wasnt allowed to comment on. read it again my friend.

    What do you think those things were? it was the trades. MLB has very strict rules about that stuff.he's negotiating a potential contract while still in the employ of the indians. he absolutely cannot comment to ownership or even have contact with their employees until he's signed.

    thats specifically was what he was referring to


    this part:

    "" Nothing was about decisions I made. I was walking into a situation that dramatically changed from when I made the decision to come here to the time I started working here. "

    what dramatically changed from when he started negotiating, to when he was actually hired?

    THE TRADES, he specifically said it had nothing to do with decisions HE made.

    remember he cant say anything other than talk contract. with ownership, he cant even talk to any employees, its expressly forbidden. and MLB monitors it all.

    even you can see the obvious
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-07-2017 at 09:59 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    yes I know, but he was also saying things were happening while he was negotiating with ownership that he wasnt allowed to comment on. read it again my friend.

    What do you think those things were? it was the trades. MLB has very strict rules about that stuff.he's negotiating a potential contract while still in the employ of the indians. he absolutely cannot comment to ownership or even have contact with their employees until he's signed.

    thats specifically was what he was referring to


    this part:

    "" Nothing was about decisions I made. I was walking into a situation that dramatically changed from when I made the decision to come here to the time I started working here. "

    what dramatically changed from when he started negotiating, to when he was actually hired?

    THE TRADES, he specifically said it had nothing to do with decisions HE made.

    remember he cant say anything other than talk contract. with ownership, he cant even talk to any employees, its expressly forbidden. and MLB monitors it all.

    even you can see the obvious
    Mike I don't think I want to continue this conversation. This is now weird.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Mike I don't think I want to continue this conversation. This is now weird.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    ok buddy but its what he said. it was a direct quote

    i really dont see how it can be taken any other way but face value

    in that time frame ie, the time he started negotiating, to the time he was actually hired so from possibly june to august 31. the only things that happened was the trades they made

    only other thing that happened was the turn around in august going 21-6 but that was because of the trades

    i dont see anything else that happend in that timeframe
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-08-2017 at 03:44 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    ok buddy but its what he said. it was a direct quote

    i really dont see how it can be taken any other way but face value

    in that time frame ie, the time he started negotiating, to the time he was actually hired so from possibly june to august 31. the only things that happened was the trades they made

    only other thing that happened was the turn around in august going 21-6 but that was because of the trades

    i dont see anything else that happend in that timeframe
    Do you even consider the context of the content you read Mike or only pick out the pieces that help your self serving narrative??

    The article is about the hostile reception he received simply for being hired to replace the golden boy. In the context of the article what purpose would it serve the author to include something completely out of nowhere like that? Something that requires the reader to completely move from a sympathetic headspace in one second to reading between the lines of something conspiritorial or rule breaking, wink wink. It makes zero sense. I can't remember who wrote the article but they'd be appalled that you are twisting the story to suit your purpose.

    What changed? The GM went from completely replaceable to a folk hero setting Shapiro up for a storm of uncalled for hate. You have to disregard the tone of the entire article to distort it the way you do.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 05-08-2017 at 12:59 PM. Reason: poor taste
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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