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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochesta View Post
    ^^ That's actually a pretty decent record of acquisitions for both GMs IMO.

    I don't agree with the premise that this season has to be someone's "fault." We sold prospects and made a solid run, had a few chances at a WS ring. Didn't go all in this year based on the assessment that players may regress and if so, the team probably wouldn't be good enough. Biggest problem seems to be the passage of time, or maybe ownership's unwillingness to raise payroll. Seems a good thing that we didn't add MORE expensive veterans this offseason, and I don't know how you add young controllables with the prospects we had left.
    I'm not picking on you particularly, I'm honestly not. I'd rather be buying you beer before saying the following.....

    No one in their right mind was advocating signing more veterans (other than for the BP). What was missing was creativity over the last 2 offseasons. When AA traded for Reyes I was happy, when I saw how ineffective he was on defence, I wasn't so happy....guess what he traded him for Tulo which was huge. I truly believe that AA would've done yet another move with some of these aging vets. You guys pretend to "misremeber" (lol) his roster shuffling. He was a master at recognizing bad deals. TBH, early last season I wondered if he would've allowed another season of Dickey and then lose him for nothing.

    I never wanted him to be president but I think AA as GM was the best we've had since Gillick and not the stand Pat Gillick- the one flush with cash and an ownership mandate to win.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    So when AA acquired Bautista, EE, Tulo and Martin, they were in their prime? News to me. Bautista and EE were AAAA fodder and Martin and Tulo are $20 million/year handicaps. I get they were very instrumental in the Runs of the past two years but their declines, which we are experiencing now are the result of that but none of them were in their "prime". It's not that hard to grasp.

    I also don't understand how people think that Shapiro and/or Atkins are going to acquire impact bats in their prime when there is nothing to trade. Just take a look at what it cost to get Adam Eaton. There is pretty no way this team can add youth and athleticsim with out anything to trade. It's a pretty simple concept. What AA did was fun but it's not in any way sustainable and history proves that.

    And I will bring up the Dickey trade because it was ****ing horrible. You can't have your cake and eat it to, MetsGuy.

    As for guys they've added under 30, Biagini and Gurriel.

    And I'm pretty far from being the blind guy, more of a realist. You just keep on chucking out asinine nicknames and naming yourself look like a fool
    Not getting involved in your bromance with Mike.....but I will respond to this.

    You know very well why Tulo was acquired, it was an upgrade on the defensive blackhole that Reyes (that AA acquired) Adding Martin was a good move for the money, even when factoring in regression- don't tell me you expected this offensive down turn this quick.

    And why do we all keep going back to the Dickey trade? The 1 colossal failure of his tenure when he thought he'd augment a staff that already had Romero, Johnson, Buerlhe, Morrow.....and Syndergaard was 3rd in the organization depth chart behind Sanchez and Norris.

    Have to tell you when I think of that rotation...... going something like a hard throwing lefty (Romero), then a Cy Young hard throwing righty (Johnson) supposedly fully healed from surgery, a Cy Young throwing knuckler (Dickey), then a soft throwing lefty (Buerlhe), then a hard throwing righty (Morrow).....I still wet my pants of what should've been.

    Romero lost his girlfriend, Johnson never truly recovered from surgery, Dickey became a serviceable not Ace like pitcher, Buerlhe was a great #4, and Morrow fell of the earth. There's a reason Vegas picked the Jays as favorites to win the WS that year. That's not on AA that's 100% on the players.

  3. #33
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    oh so AA gets no credit for recognizing the Talent that Encarnacion and Bautista had, that just proves how foolish you are. both of those AAAA fodder guys became multiple time all stars which AA got for peanuts and Martin and Tulo brought the Jays to the brink of the World Series after 20 years as non entity. youre some fan I guess you just want to finish last every year and accumulate draft choices then.

    at the time id the Dickey trade it was hailed as a coup

    "On paper, the Blue Jays already appear to be loaded after the blockbuster trade with the Miami Marlins last month. According to Yahoo! Sports, that huge trade “transformed the Blue Jays from a middling American League East team into a contender. The acquisition of Dickey would cement their status as favorite in the division, and maybe the whole league.”

    http://www.inquisitr.com/439711/r-a-...-award-winner/

    If the deal goes through it will only cement Toronto’s status as a favourite to win the American League East this coming season, if not the World Series.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6459007/

    While the former Cy Young award winner will steal all the headlines this winter, spring and throughout the season as Dickey starts every five days for the Blue Jays, it will be Thole who rounds out the roster – another great move by Alex Anthopoulos.

    http://hullabaloojays-blog.tumblr.co...e-dickey-trade

    "The Jays made it clear all winter that they were ready to spend and go for it now — especially with the Yankees and Red Sox suddenly looking vulnerable. Toronto wasn’t done, acquiring National League Cy Young winner R.A. Dickey from the New York Mets early this week for more prospects. That moved Toronto to the front of the futures odds. The team also signed Dickey to an extension, something the Mets and the knuckleballer couldn’t agree on. Dickey, 38, was one of the most unlikely Cy Young winners ever. He was essentially a journeyman with a career high of 11 wins. But in 2012, Dickey used his knuckler to go 20-6 with a 2.73 ERA in leading the National League in innings pitched (233 2/3), strikeouts (230) and complete games (five). He should slide into the top of what is now a solid rotation on paper with Buehrle, Johnson, Brandon Morrow and Ricky Romero."

    http://nesn.com/2012/12/blue-jays-th...up-r-a-dickey/

    remember at the time of the Trade Syndergaard was not a top 100 prospect, he was a 20 year old single A pitcher. Single A pitchers are far from a guarantee.......I'll tell you what give us Sanchez and you can have any single A pitcher the Mets have......since youre such a certified genius talent scout it should be easy to pick a winner.....

    its easy to be critical when all your using is 20-20 hindsight. so rather than me being a fool its You. The fact that you refuse to credit AA for finding Bautista and Encarnacion from the scrap heap and turning into not only Good but certifiably great players proof that youre an idiot.... the fact that he also got Josh Donaldson how he did was also a coup.. if AA could find Edwin, Jose, and Josh for a comparative pittance, Why cant Stupiro Napkins?
    He got 3 MVP type talents for next to nothing.....the only one who might be something is Barreto and thats still up in the Air. there's not a GM alive who wouldnt kill to have those deals on his resume.

    id bet youre the only Blue Jay fan who could possibly fault AA for those three deals..... i didnt even make up the nickname, but your lack of reading skills didnt allow you to even grasp that......

    and i didnt start this, you called me The mets guy first and I gave you a nickname back so you started it.

    heres a thought lets ask our fellow board members what deals theyd rather have (one or the other)

    AA

    Dickey
    Bautista
    Encarnacion
    Tulowitzki
    Martin
    Donaldson

    or Shapiros deals and remember its not pick and choose its all or none....

    I for one take AA's deals and its not even close. AA wasnt perfect far from it, but he took over a team that wasnt competitive for 20 years and made them Relevant.....Id say that matters
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-17-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    oh so AA gets no credit for recognizing the Talent that Encarnacion and Bautista had, that just proves how foolish you are. both of those AAAA fodder guys became multiple time all stars which AA got for peanuts and Martin and Tulo brought the Jays to the brink of the World Series after 20 years as non entity. youre some fan I guess you just want to finish last every year and accumulate draft choices then.

    at the time id the Dickey trade it was hailed as a coup

    "On paper, the Blue Jays already appear to be loaded after the blockbuster trade with the Miami Marlins last month. According to Yahoo! Sports, that huge trade “transformed the Blue Jays from a middling American League East team into a contender. The acquisition of Dickey would cement their status as favorite in the division, and maybe the whole league.”

    http://www.inquisitr.com/439711/r-a-...-award-winner/

    If the deal goes through it will only cement Toronto’s status as a favourite to win the American League East this coming season, if not the World Series.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6459007/

    While the former Cy Young award winner will steal all the headlines this winter, spring and throughout the season as Dickey starts every five days for the Blue Jays, it will be Thole who rounds out the roster – another great move by Alex Anthopoulos.

    http://hullabaloojays-blog.tumblr.co...e-dickey-trade

    "The Jays made it clear all winter that they were ready to spend and go for it now — especially with the Yankees and Red Sox suddenly looking vulnerable. Toronto wasn’t done, acquiring National League Cy Young winner R.A. Dickey from the New York Mets early this week for more prospects. That moved Toronto to the front of the futures odds. The team also signed Dickey to an extension, something the Mets and the knuckleballer couldn’t agree on. Dickey, 38, was one of the most unlikely Cy Young winners ever. He was essentially a journeyman with a career high of 11 wins. But in 2012, Dickey used his knuckler to go 20-6 with a 2.73 ERA in leading the National League in innings pitched (233 2/3), strikeouts (230) and complete games (five). He should slide into the top of what is now a solid rotation on paper with Buehrle, Johnson, Brandon Morrow and Ricky Romero."

    http://nesn.com/2012/12/blue-jays-th...up-r-a-dickey/

    remember at the time of the Trade Syndergaard was not a top 100 prospect, he was a 20 year old single A pitcher. Single A pitchers are far from a guarantee.......I'll tell you what give us Sanchez and you can have any single A pitcher the Mets have......since youre such a certified genius talent scout it should be easy to pick a winner.....

    its easy to be critical when all your using is 20-20 hindsight. so rather than me being a fool its You. The fact that you refuse to credit AA for finding Bautista and Encarnacion from the scrap heap and turning into not only Good but certifiably great players proof that youre an idiot.... the fact that he also got Josh Donaldson how he did was also a coup.. if AA could find Edwin, Jose, and Josh for a comparative pittance, Why cant Stupiro Napkins?
    He got 3 MVP type talents for next to nothing.....the only one who might be something is Barreto and thats still up in the Air. there's not a GM alive who wouldnt kill to have those deals on his resume.

    id bet youre the only Blue Jay fan who could possibly fault AA for those three deals..... i didnt even make up the nickname, but your lack of reading skills didnt allow you to even grasp that......

    and i didnt start this, you called me The mets guy first and I gave you a nickname back so you started it.

    heres a thought lets ask our fellow board members what deals theyd rather have (one or the other)

    AA

    Dickey
    Bautista
    Encarnacion
    Tulowitzki
    Martin
    Donaldson

    or Shapiros deals and remember its not pick and choose its all or none....

    I for one take AA's deals and its not even close. AA wasnt perfect far from it, but he took over a team that wasnt competitive for 20 years and made them Relevant.....Id say that matters
    Why do you keep making this a AA vs Shapiro debate? This has been discussed ad naseum. I don't know how many times I have to say that I liked AA's deals fr it to sink in. Just stop and think.....hard. You will get it. I am allowed to like both.

    You go around calling people idiots and don't even know that Bautista was acquired by Ricciardi. Pot meet kettle.

    Go back to the Mets forum. They deserve you
    Last edited by Kenny Powders; 04-17-2017 at 09:23 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Why do you keep making this a AA vs Shapiro debate? This has been discussed ad naseum. I don't know how many times I have to say that I liked AA's deals fr it to sink in. Just stop and think.....hard. You will get it. I am allowed to like both.

    You go around calling people idiots and don't even know that Bautista was acquired by Ricciardi. Kudos.

    Go back to the Mets forum. They deserve you
    Shows what you know Ricciardi said a While back that Bautista wasnt his call, it was Anthopoulos, you forget that Ricciardi went to the Mets, where he had been a player in his career. He also admitted that he over ruled Anthopoulos to Draft Ricky Romero instead of Troy Tulowitzki, who Alex wanted desparately.

    this is all common knowledge im surprised as a jays fan you didnt know this, then there was the whole Adam Dunn mess where ricciardi was called a liar, by Dunn in national television. you ought to check your facts

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    Shows what you know Ricciardi said a While back that Bautista wasnt his call, it was Anthopoulos, you forget that Ricciardi went to the Mets, where he had been a player in his career. He also admitted that he over ruled Anthopoulos to Draft Ricky Romero instead of Troy Tulowitzki, who Alex wanted desparately.

    this is all common knowledge im surprised as a jays fan you didnt know this, then there was the whole Adam Dunn mess where ricciardi was called a liar, by Dunn in national television. you ought to check your facts
    Source?

    And it was his call in the end, because he is the gm. You know, the guy who makes the decisions.

    And what the **** is the rest of your post about?

  7. #37
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    just read an article that AA brought the idea of Bautista to Ricciardi but that Ricciardi deserves all the credit.

    Either way I'm done with you and this thread. You keep on keeping on with your reactionary thoughts and incoherent geriatric ramblings.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    just read an article that AA brought the idea of Bautista to Ricciardi but that Ricciardi deserves all the credit.

    Either way I'm done with you and this thread. You keep on keeping on with your reactionary thoughts and incoherent geriatric ramblings.
    you just dont like that you were wrong. I was just showing you that AA was the real judge of talent. imagine if Ricciardi had listened to AA and had drafted Tulo instead of Romero.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    you just dont like that you were wrong. I was just showing you that AA was the real judge of talent. imagine if Ricciardi had listened to AA and had drafted Tulo instead of Romero.
    Why is every thing so black and white with you. Was AA a real judge of talent when he put EE on waivers? Arguing with you is like arguing with my two year old nephew.

  10. #40
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    Tulo had been on Anthopoulos’s mind for more than a decade, dating back to when he worked as a Jays scouting director in 2005. He and (now-assistant GM) Andrew Tinnish went to scout the shortstop when he was starring for Long Beach State. The Jays ended up drafting Ricky Romero one spot before the Rockies took Tulo. Both men then watched from a distance as that five-tool kid blossomed into an elite talent. A decade later, they wanted him badly.

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ml...zki-blue-jays/

    Ricky Romero will be forever known as the player taken just before shortstop Troy Tulowitzki, going sixth overall in the 2005 draft. Though Jays scouts were pushing for Tulowitzki, general manager J.P. Ricciardi overruled his charges and took Romero instead.

    https://www.battersbox.ca/article.ph...50427160423514

    read the book "100 Things Blue Jays Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die" #42 tells the whole Story, Keith Law said AA literally begged Ricciardi, to pick Tulo but Ricciardi wouldnt listen

    and yes it is in black and White Ricciardi admitted to it, so who do we believe the guys who were there or you?

    you look at the facts Stupiro Napkins has added age to the roster so of course the team is gonna look old by comparison you dont need to be a geniu7s to figure that out... its about as Black and While as it could possibly get. and Ive been saying it since they signed Morales, its not that I dont like Kendrys I just felt he'd tie up the DH spot and clog the bases.

    to me its common sense not rocket science, its the same with Pearce, he's a good player with a manager who will pick his spots and put him in a position to succeed, Showalter does that. Maddon does that, I dont think Gibby has shown that ability

    so when I have been saying it since before the season started its not a second guess. its just good evaluation
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-17-2017 at 10:38 PM.

  11. #41
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    These guys have made a lot of great moves and only 3 somewhat bad moves

    The Hendricks deal which we all hated but its not like thats the end of the world
    The Smoak deal. The deal itself isn't a problem and it can still be fixed if they release him when his struggles continue. Its not exactly an albatross
    The 3rd bad move is giving Gibbons an extension and hell most people think hes actually a good manager so I dunno

    What do they deserve firing for? This is mostly not their team and they made great moves to help the team make the playoffs last year after AA's rentals left

    If they didn't sign anyone, then you blame Rogers for not giving them the money. No GM is gonna choose not to bring players in if they have the means to

  12. #42
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    the bad moves were adding age to the team, they shopped in the bargain bin and made an Aging team older, as good of a hitter as Morales is he ties up the DH so players cant rest without severely hurting the batting order. Youre the #1 anti Gibby guy and if anyone knows he's not a master in putting players in a position to succeed its you bomber. The players they added makes Gibby have to make all the right calls, and we both know they've set him up to fail.

    You of all people should know this. Honestly buddy they pitched you a meatball with the bases loaded, I expected you to hit this one straight out if the park....I'm frankly very surprised you didnt see this a mile away.

    No real backup at SS and 3B, a backup catcher who cant catch or throw out runners.. A great 5 man Starting Staff with absolutely no depth behind it.and a Starting outfield that wont drive in 200 runs. this team is gonna play Tulo Josh and Martin into the ground
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-17-2017 at 11:47 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    the bad moves were adding age to the team, they shopped in the bargain bin and made an Aging team older, as good of a hitter as Morales is he ties up the DH so players cant rest without severely hurting the batting order. Youre the #1 anti Gibby guy and if anyone knows he's not a master in putting players in a position to succeed its you bomber. The players they added makes Gibby have to make all the right calls, and we both know they've set him up to fail.

    You of all people should know this. Honestly buddy they pitched you a meatball with the bases loaded, I expected you to hit this one straight out if the park....I'm frankly very surprised you didnt see this a mile away.
    I like the Morales signing.. and it will be a good one. Hes the only guy on the team having good ABs

    what would you do in their place. The team needed a 1B/DH and they got the best one on the Market not named EE. Would you rather have Napoli?

    I mean how much younger/more athletic did you expect them to get over one offseason. Morales and Bautista were the best options to bring in to avoid losing a tonne of offense with EE departing. I would have liked to see Fowler but that was the only guy and he got overpayed big time by STL and they'll regret it soon enough

    The Morales/Bautista signings with smart short-term contracts with little to no risk. Its the best we could have done with this offseason free agent crop

  14. #44
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    These guys are no man's land with a team full of aging players and no impact youngsters anywhere near major league ready. The rotation was set coming into the season. Sure I would have liked them to be more aggressive in improving the pen but that hasn't been the issue. The issue is that the hitters that they were stuck with for the most part aren't hitting. Guys like Martin/Donaldson/Tulo/Travis/Pillar/Bautista. Even if Morales/Pearce were setting the world on fire, we'd still be in trouble

  15. #45
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    I would have let the mets pay me to take Jay Bruce, Signed Tyson Ross and Jered Weaver and Trevor Plouffe Jerry Blevins and Chis Carter as a DH /1b and call up reese mcguire to be my backup catcher. it still would have been about the same money but less age and better upside, no Morales no Pearce No Bautista, no Howell, , I dont mind Smith. if edwon wouldve wanted to come back id consider it depending on cost. but I would never tie up DH like they did, Carter and Bruce could play the field to let DH be a rotated rest spot

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