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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I really don't think these guys have some cloak and dagger/hidden agenda going on.
    I think Shapiro did when he was first hired. I think he was brought in to rebuild, but AA pillaged the farm and we went on an unbelieveable run that completely threw that plan out the window. They did a good job maintaining it last year, but the backloaded deal to Martin, the Tulo contract we took on, Jose inevitable decline, having to let Edwin walk and the lack of depth is catching up, none that I can blame on Shap and Ross. They're definitly not as creative as AA, I don't think many are, but they've made some good moves. We have a pretty cost effective, good rotation. And it pains me to say because I really don't like them and want to blame them, but they are really handcuffed with what they can do. They're maxed out on salary, in large part to the 20 mil a piece Martin and Tulo are getting and the lack of upper minor farm depth.


    The Lost Boys of PSD

  2. #17
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    Why? They're currently being proven right for not going all in on the 2017 version of AA's core.

  3. #18
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    How are they being proved right? When they caused this.... they signed Pearce, they Signed Bautista too, don't forget. They signed Howell to replace Cecil. They added Upton and added Liriano And Coghlan and gave Smoak his contract. And none of their signings are spring chickens.

    For all we know they brought this on. At least AA's crew were winning. 1 lousy GW homer doesn't make Morales a good signing. Even Salty is an aging vet. Let's not kid ourselves... everyone they've added has been dead weight who added to the pressure on Josh and Tulo. Name even one young guy they've added

    Stupiro Napkins brought this on. It's their narrative that THEY created that Now blames AA. Don't forget his squad was winning. The man was right to leave when he did. He saw right away that were going to make him a scapegoat for their own lack of vision.

    The blame game belongs on Stupiro Napkins. Don't be fooled by their self-proclaimed narrative. They have every reason to try and distance themselves from the mess they created. Don't let them.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-16-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochesta View Post
    Why? They're currently being proven right for not going all in on the 2017 version of AA's core.
    You know something? The AA bashing only shows how limited your baseball knowledge really is. I love it when people call "this" his core, and what did he do until he went all in 2015?

    Do yourself a favor and go look at the team he inherited and the prospects in the minors before speaking. This nonsense of Shapiro vs AA is ridiculous. Everything AA was luck? And everything Shapiro does is to build in the Cleveland mold? Last I checked, AA's "core" made it to the ALCS.

    I'm not here to bash these 2, but I'm not giving them much credit. As I've previously said, I believe they came in with a plan and that plan changed. They have since tried to do just enough to make things look good, but thier agenda is to make this team thier own (and there is nothing wrong with that). The only problem I have is that I would prefer that they picked a direction rather than trying to convince us that this is a winning team (when we all can see its not).

    Just remember 1 thing about AA, he didn't talk much but when he did, he was clear with his intentions. He said he would move out big contracts, rebuild the farm for "prospect capital", trade for proven players and use the money afforded to him by Rogers to repeat that cycle. He proved he could build a farm twice. His trade for Dickey although flawed was as much a 20/20 deal that you can get. The entire Florida deal fell flat because of the players not because of AA. All he did was blow it up on the fly and rebuild the farm simultaneously to be able to do it again in 2015. The league is littered with players the Jays have drafted, and there are still some incredible players coming almost 2 drafts after AA left that his staff picked.

    This team in the here and now belongs to Shapiro not AA. If changes needed to be done (like getting younger, faster, and more athletic) then they should've been done over the last 2 offseasons. Even if that meant moving Tulo, Martin, JD ect. If AA could move Vernon, I'm sure there could've been a deal for these guys. Instead we got retreds, bottom of the barrel guys. Other than resigning Estrada and signing Happ, tell what move has been incredibly creative? Liriano? Take on salary for 2 maybe prospects?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I really don't think these guys have some cloak and dagger/hidden agenda going on.

    If in 3 years time the team is spinning it's tires then I will change my tune but I'm willing to give them time.

    Speaking of looking at things in a vacuum.
    First point; we can respectfully disagree.

    Second point; I hope we don't waste 3 years to pick a direction. It doesn't take that long to figure out what you have. We know this team as constructed today is not beating the Indians or the Cubs in a 7 game series.

    Third point; viewing things in a vacuum is only useful when trying to understand another ones view. To use a player to player statical comparison of EE vs Morales at this point excluding any other factors is simply wrong. I'm not suggesting you are viewing things in a vacuum, because I know you don't...I just need to make that point clear to some of the lemmings on this forum.

  6. #21
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    exactly, its crazy to buy into their Self-Serving Narrative, sure they helped build Cleveland but Cleveland won nothing until they were let go and the new GM showed some vision to bring in some Solid pieces to actually win something

    Andrew Miller, Lindor, and Naquin never played a single game under Stupiro Napkins so giving them the credit for it is ridiculous. He didnt even draft them, he was GM until 2010. Cleveland finally realized if they were ever going to Actually win anything they needed to bring in somebody with some vision.

    the Lets blame AA baloney is entirely their creation to give themselves a free pass. they've had 2 entire offseasons to remake the team if they wanted......they have and what you see is their lack of vision
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-16-2017 at 10:38 PM.

  7. #22
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    Simply, look at what is said and done this off-season.

    Key mojo was to go younger/athletic/more left-handed AND cheaper at the same time. Did they?

    To do so, just get or must-get Eric Thames. They didn't and Thames landed in Milwaukee, who easily plays LF/1b.

    Now we got Pearce who is well below standards and Thames is performing way above standards.

    .143/.200/.143/.343 4hits 0hr 8k 0rbi
    .382/.462/.912/.1373 13hits 5hr 9k 10rbi

    Like I said, I screamed for Thames all season, the 2 time Korean MVP blah blah blah, and when I see off season slowly unfold and wind down, I sense and knew these 2 jokers are clueless accountants, not gamechanging mavericks.

    Thames IS the buy low sell high stock of this season. They blew it. Not giving them 3 more seasons to show what there is to offer.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfio View Post
    Simply, look at what is said and done this off-season.

    Key mojo was to go younger/athletic/more left-handed AND cheaper at the same time. Did they?

    To do so, just get or must-get Eric Thames. They didn't and Thames landed in Milwaukee, who easily plays LF/1b.

    Now we got Pearce who is well below standards and Thames is performing way above standards.

    .143/.200/.143/.343 4hits 0hr 8k 0rbi
    .382/.462/.912/.1373 13hits 5hr 9k 10rbi

    Like I said, I screamed for Thames all season, the 2 time Korean MVP blah blah blah, and when I see off season slowly unfold and wind down, I sense and knew these 2 jokers are clueless accountants, not gamechanging mavericks.

    Thames IS the buy low sell high stock of this season. They blew it. Not giving them 3 more seasons to show what there is to offer.
    you were right, clearly Which is Why reliance on WAR alone is a fools game. Scouting is a science too. the key is understanding how to use ALL the tools in your toolbox and knowing WHEN to use each one, including WAR.

    PS your stats on Pearce are over stated his 0-2 today wasnt included
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-16-2017 at 11:36 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    You know something? The AA bashing only shows how limited your baseball knowledge really is. I love it when people call "this" his core, and what did he do until he went all in 2015?

    Do yourself a favor and go look at the team he inherited and the prospects in the minors before speaking. This nonsense of Shapiro vs AA is ridiculous. Everything AA was luck? And everything Shapiro does is to build in the Cleveland mold? Last I checked, AA's "core" made it to the ALCS.

    I'm not here to bash these 2, but I'm not giving them much credit. As I've previously said, I believe they came in with a plan and that plan changed. They have since tried to do just enough to make things look good, but thier agenda is to make this team thier own (and there is nothing wrong with that). The only problem I have is that I would prefer that they picked a direction rather than trying to convince us that this is a winning team (when we all can see its not).

    Just remember 1 thing about AA, he didn't talk much but when he did, he was clear with his intentions. He said he would move out big contracts, rebuild the farm for "prospect capital", trade for proven players and use the money afforded to him by Rogers to repeat that cycle. He proved he could build a farm twice. His trade for Dickey although flawed was as much a 20/20 deal that you can get. The entire Florida deal fell flat because of the players not because of AA. All he did was blow it up on the fly and rebuild the farm simultaneously to be able to do it again in 2015. The league is littered with players the Jays have drafted, and there are still some incredible players coming almost 2 drafts after AA left that his staff picked.

    This team in the here and now belongs to Shapiro not AA. If changes needed to be done (like getting younger, faster, and more athletic) then they should've been done over the last 2 offseasons. Even if that meant moving Tulo, Martin, JD ect. If AA could move Vernon, I'm sure there could've been a deal for these guys. Instead we got retreds, bottom of the barrel guys. Other than resigning Estrada and signing Happ, tell what move has been incredibly creative? Liriano? Take on salary for 2 maybe prospects?
    I like AA and would prefer to have him. But Shapiro and Atkins don't owe anything to his group of players, who weren't worth betting the house for 2017 and beyond, and they apparently made that (correct) calculation. In other words, I don't bash AA or Shapiro. Players age, runs end.

    Adding Thames instead of Pearce or spending more on a higher priced reliever probably doesn't polish this turd, that's my view anyway. Tulo, Martin and Bautista are just expensive and old. It happens.
    Last edited by Rochesta; 04-17-2017 at 12:24 AM.

  10. #25
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    The way I see it, this mess was ownership's fault in 3 ways:

    1) They broke the oldest rule in the book by letting a lame duck GM control team assets. It really handcuffed them when he decided to trade players to put the team over the top.

    2) They probably shouldn't have fired AA.

    3) They do not invest enough money into team payroll considering the size of the market. Every year they cry poor, claiming they lose money off the team and other nonsense. They lie through their teeth about what a lucrative business the Jays are for them. If they don't want to pony up, they should up and sell the team and then they can pay fair market value for their television rights.

    Also, lets not kid ourselves into thinking AA was perfect. He made some pretty bad blunders over the years, perhaps most especially the Martin contract. At this point the guy isn't much more than a glorified Jose Molina.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochesta View Post
    Adding Thames instead of Pearce or spending more on a higher priced reliever probably doesn't polish this turd, that's my view anyway. Tulo, Martin and Bautista are just expensive and old. It happens.
    but youre assumeing the core stops at Tulo, Martin and Bautista, it doesnt, Donaldson, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Happ ans others are part of it, dont they deserve the front office supporting their efforts with the "right players" and not Mid 30's retreads. Every Piece they added was worse than what they lost, They put more pressure on the core adding retreads for the Sake of Saving money,than actually providing help to the core.

    Tulo, Martin and Bautista are getting older you cant change that, but lessening their burden was the right move, not adding 34 year old Pearce, 33 year Old Morales, 32 year old Salty, 34 year old Howell and and 33 year old Smith.

    all they did was make an aging team older with worse players. how is this AA's fault and Not Stupiro Napkins fault? they've been here for 2 years, All they've done is Set up AA to be a scapegoat so they get a free pass for the teardown and rebuild

    you've gotta be smarter than that....its not like this is their first day on the job. they've been in charge for 2 years. if they didnt like the core why didnt they trade Tulo, Martin and Bautista, when they still had value? didnt the Yankees and White Sox just do that?

    instead they went out and Added at least 13 mid 30's players in Happ, Upton, Liriano, Pearce, Morales, Howell, Smith, Benoit, Grilli, Bautista, Salty, Lowe, Floyd (not once but twice) and for good measure 29 year old Latos. so if this roster got old in a hurry.......look no further than Stupiro Napkins

    I hate to burst your bubble but the facts are there this isnt on AA, this is squarely on Stupiro Napkins, they just made the burden on the core too much to bear, to really understand Stupiro Napkins, you must also look at his tenure on cleveland as David Zwick wrote when he was replaced it wasnt very good

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...hapiros-tenure

    Stupiro Napkins indeed
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-17-2017 at 02:48 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    First point; we can respectfully disagree.

    Second point; I hope we don't waste 3 years to pick a direction. It doesn't take that long to figure out what you have. We know this team as constructed today is not beating the Indians or the Cubs in a 7 game series.

    Third point; viewing things in a vacuum is only useful when trying to understand another ones view. To use a player to player statical comparison of EE vs Morales at this point excluding any other factors is simply wrong. I'm not suggesting you are viewing things in a vacuum, because I know you don't...I just need to make that point clear to some of the lemmings on this forum.
    I get that, and healthy disagreement is good. No one is going to agree all the time. It's just that we get guys like the OP (who's started these types of threads before) and the Mets fan going around calling them stupero and napkins. Names that make no sense, make them look childish and lose pretty much all credibility.

    I really don't think they are failing to chose a direction. Personally, I agree, go to one extreme or the other. They chose try and stay competitive and build on the fly. This team has(d) the pitching to get a wild card berth and then anything is possible, Like we seen last year. I would tend to lean towards a total rebuild. This offence is old and not very good any more and after our top 5 SP, we have no one. I know a few around here like to pin the lack of depth on the current FO but that's unfair. Depth is built through the draft and the top tier of our minor leagues is pretty barren. I enjoyed the run of the last two years as much as anyone but we are paying the price for those two years now.

    My comment about EE/Morales was more in jest then anything. I would take EE back over Morales in a heartbeat. These guys have made some questionable moves (Smoak, Hendricks, Morales) but they've made some pretty good ones as well. I, for one, am willing to give them time before I send them to guillotine

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    It's just that we get guys like the OP (who's started these types of threads before) and the Mets fan going around calling them stupero and napkins. Names that make no sense, make them look childish and lose pretty much all credibility.

    This offence is old and not very good any more

    you say that the offense is old yet you totally ignore that Stupiro Napkins has added 13 mid 30's players in 2 years

    AA at least acquired players in their primes

    Josh Donaldson 28
    Juan Encarnacion 27
    Jose Bautista 27
    David Price 29
    Troy Tulowitzki 30
    Russell Martin 32

    so who has zero credibility? seems to me its you. AA went out and Identified needs and acquired what was needed dont forget that the 3 oldest guys on that list were All Stars in their prime who filled Specific needs at the time

    The ONLY REASON the team looks old now is that Stupiro Napkins Added in the last 2 years

    jason Grilli 40
    J A Happ 33
    francisco Liriano 32
    Joaquin Benoit 39
    Steve Pearce 33
    Kendrys Morales 33
    Jose Bautista 36
    Mark Lowe 32
    Gavin Floyd (twice) 32 and again at 33
    Melvin Upton 32
    JP Howell 33
    Joe Smith 33

    name a single all star Stupiro napkins has acquired on the right side of 30 AA had 4

    I repeat at least AA added All Stars in their Primes, Stupiro Napkins added bit pieces in decline....

    the only one with zero credibility is YOU

    And before you bring up Syndergaard, remember Dickey was a 23 game winner fresh off a Cy Young Award on a $5 MILLION contract and Syndergaard was a single A prospect....

    Im not saying send them to the Guillotine, Im just saying look at what they have Actually Acquired. you dont need to be a Nuclear Physicist to see that they have added age to this roster, not Youth and Athleticism.

    I may be "The Met fan" but if I am....then youre "the blind guy"
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-17-2017 at 01:08 PM.

  14. #29
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    ^^ That's actually a pretty decent record of acquisitions for both GMs IMO.

    I don't agree with the premise that this season has to be someone's "fault." We sold prospects and made a solid run, had a few chances at a WS ring. Didn't go all in this year based on the assessment that players may regress and if so, the team probably wouldn't be good enough. Biggest problem seems to be the passage of time, or maybe ownership's unwillingness to raise payroll. Seems a good thing that we didn't add MORE expensive veterans this offseason, and I don't know how you add young controllables with the prospects we had left.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    you say that the offense is old yet you totally ignore that Stupiro Napkins has added 13 mid 30's players in 2 years

    AA at least acquired players in their primes

    Josh Donaldson 28
    Juan Encarnacion 27
    Jose Bautista 27
    David Price 29
    Troy Tulowitzki 30
    Russell Martin 32

    so who has zero credibility? seems to me its you. AA went out and Identified needs and acquired what was needed dont forget that the 3 oldest guys on that list were All Stars in their prime who filled Specific needs at the time

    The ONLY REASON the team looks old now is that Stupiro Napkins Added in the last 2 years

    jason Grilli 40
    J A Happ 33
    francisco Liriano 32
    Joaquin Benoit 39
    Steve Pearce 33
    Kendrys Morales 33
    Jose Bautista 36
    Mark Lowe 32
    Gavin Floyd (twice) 32 and again at 33
    Melvin Upton 32
    JP Howell 33
    Joe Smith 33

    name a single all star Stupiro napkins has acquired on the right side of 30 AA had 4

    I repeat at least AA added All Stars in their Primes, Stupiro Napkins added bit pieces in decline....

    the only one with zero credibility is YOU

    And before you bring up Syndergaard, remember Dickey was a 23 game winner fresh off a Cy Young Award on a $5 MILLION contract and Syndergaard was a single A prospect....

    Im not saying send them to the Guillotine, Im just saying look at what they have Actually Acquired. you dont need to be a Nuclear Physicist to see that they have added age to this roster, not Youth and Athleticism.

    I may be "The Met fan" but if I am....then youre "the blind guy"
    So when AA acquired Bautista, EE, Tulo and Martin, they were in their prime? News to me. Bautista and EE were AAAA fodder and Martin and Tulo are $20 million/year handicaps. I get they were very instrumental in the Runs of the past two years but their declines, which we are experiencing now are the result of that but none of them were in their "prime". It's not that hard to grasp.

    I also don't understand how people think that Shapiro and/or Atkins are going to acquire impact bats in their prime when there is nothing to trade. Just take a look at what it cost to get Adam Eaton. There is pretty no way this team can add youth and athleticsim with out anything to trade. It's a pretty simple concept. What AA did was fun but it's not in any way sustainable and history proves that.

    And I will bring up the Dickey trade because it was ****ing horrible. You can't have your cake and eat it to, MetsGuy.

    As for guys they've added under 30, Biagini and Gurriel.

    And I'm pretty far from being the blind guy, more of a realist. You just keep on chucking out asinine nicknames and naming yourself look like a fool
    Last edited by Kenny Powders; 04-17-2017 at 07:04 PM.

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