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  1. #16
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    I don't think Vogel goes anywhere because of the following

    -Martins mentioned him as a great coach in his presser.
    -I don't think we can get anybody better.

  2. #17
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    I don't have any issues with RH drafts. Sure you can nitpick but overall I'm fine with him there. Outside of his Dwight trade I haven't been happy with his trades or off-seasons.

    I remember looking at our roster at the beginng of this year and saying we got worse or at best stayed the same.

    I didn't like the Dipo or Harris trades. Esp when we replaced them with equal or lesser talent. Trade Harris but pay Green 15 mil? Why? Trade Dino for Ibaka that hurts pur team offense when we lack offense and people who can score on their own. Why?

    Plus he was unable to get a top free agent. I don't buy the arguments that people don't want to play here. I can give you countless examples of small market teams getting great players. Including us when we got TMac and a top 3 player in the league Grant Hill in the same offseason.

    RH was over his head. Best of luck to him though.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by macc View Post
    Plus he was unable to get a top free agent. I don't buy the arguments that people don't want to play here. I can give you countless examples of small market teams getting great players. Including us when we got TMac and a top 3 player in the league Grant Hill in the same offseason.
    Name them. It happens incredibly infrequently, especially lately.

    T-Mac was not a "star" at the time, but he was on the verge. We had an advantage over most teams in that T-Mac was interested in playing closer to home (us) and we had tons of money to blow, especially after the Duncan thing flopped. Grant was definitely a star, but man...why are we pretending that landing him (or T-Mac) is anything other than the exception to the rule. Anomalies, even.

    Look, Henny didn't pull off any miracles but I really have a hard time criticizing him too much for his drafting and his ability to con a star into playing for Orlando.

    What stars realistically could've he gotten (ignoring most restricted FAs):

    2013: Dwight & CP3. Dwight obviously wasn't happening and why the hell would CP3 leave LAC?

    2014: LeBron, Bosh, Dirk, Melo, Lowry, Bledsoe. No chance, no chance, no chance, no chance. Lowry stayed in Toronto, shunning Miami (more attractive), Houston (more attractive) amongst others. Bledsoe would've been nice and has long been coveted by people here, but he was an RFA.

    2015: LeBron, Kawhi, Marc, LMA, Love, Dray. No chance on any of those guys as far as I'm concerned.

    2016: KD, DeMar, Horford, Conley. Conley signed the biggest contract in NBA history at the time, Horford would've been an idiot to sign with us over Boston. The other two were never a chance.


    Who's this "star" we fault Henny from not signing. We gotta have some level of pragmatism here when we're assessing his tenure. Holding him to unrealistic and unfair standards is just silly. Same with the draft...we just had some ****** draft luck...it's not like he passed over anyone who was taken shortly after us that became a star. We just had really unlucky draft slots those three crucial years. Dipo was a fine pick, but he's a league-average player. AG was probably the right pick, but he might not ever amount to too much. I got no hope for Mario, but would Henny still be here had he drafted WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky or Winslow? Hell no.

    I'm fine with him leaving, but I don't think he should shoulder all the blame. I don't think many, or potentially any, GM has us terribly close to contending had the come in when he did

    And Alex Martins is still around and that sucks.
    this my sig

  4. #19
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    Martins may have learned his lesson about meddling or hiring inexperienced GMs. But Henny had to go. Trades, Draft and FA was average at best. Why we even talking about a GM that had no winning seasons.
    Last edited by StreetKing; 04-14-2017 at 10:07 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Name them. It happens incredibly infrequently, especially lately.

    T-Mac was not a "star" at the time, but he was on the verge. We had an advantage over most teams in that T-Mac was interested in playing closer to home (us) and we had tons of money to blow, especially after the Duncan thing flopped. Grant was definitely a star, but man...why are we pretending that landing him (or T-Mac) is anything other than the exception to the rule. Anomalies, even.

    Look, Henny didn't pull off any miracles but I really have a hard time criticizing him too much for his drafting and his ability to con a star into playing for Orlando.

    What stars realistically could've he gotten (ignoring most restricted FAs):

    2013: Dwight & CP3. Dwight obviously wasn't happening and why the hell would CP3 leave LAC?

    2014: LeBron, Bosh, Dirk, Melo, Lowry, Bledsoe. No chance, no chance, no chance, no chance. Lowry stayed in Toronto, shunning Miami (more attractive), Houston (more attractive) amongst others. Bledsoe would've been nice and has long been coveted by people here, but he was an RFA.

    2015: LeBron, Kawhi, Marc, LMA, Love, Dray. No chance on any of those guys as far as I'm concerned.

    2016: KD, DeMar, Horford, Conley. Conley signed the biggest contract in NBA history at the time, Horford would've been an idiot to sign with us over Boston. The other two were never a chance.


    Who's this "star" we fault Henny from not signing. We gotta have some level of pragmatism here when we're assessing his tenure. Holding him to unrealistic and unfair standards is just silly. Same with the draft...we just had some ****** draft luck...it's not like he passed over anyone who was taken shortly after us that became a star. We just had really unlucky draft slots those three crucial years. Dipo was a fine pick, but he's a league-average player. AG was probably the right pick, but he might not ever amount to too much. I got no hope for Mario, but would Henny still be here had he drafted WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky or Winslow? Hell no.

    I'm fine with him leaving, but I don't think he should shoulder all the blame. I don't think many, or potentially any, GM has us terribly close to contending had the come in when he did

    And Alex Martins is still around and that sucks.
    My biggest issue with Rob is/was his drafting. I really don't care about free agency and the fact that he didn't sign a "star". Let's be honest a "star" player isn't coming to Orlando when LA, Chicago, NY or Miami come calling.

    As far as Martins goes I've wanted him gone for a while. It seems like he wants to get involved and forces the GM's into making bad moves. Both Otis and Rob in their final years made some rediculous moves and I believe it was due to Martins getting involved.
    Last edited by 5surretts; 04-14-2017 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #21
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    I'm so sick of people thinking all players are naturally drawn to mega cities like NY, LA, Chicago, Miami, etc.

    First of all, Miami isn't the fourth largest city in America. Idk where this idea of Miami being a mega city started but Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. are all larger than Miami, so maybe people need to mention them before Miami when they mention "big markets."

    Second, no one is banging down the Knicks' and Lakers' doors to sign with them. If these past few offseasons have taught us anything, it's that most players' main motivation to sign with a team is that they want to play with winning franchises. That's why Durant went to GS and not LA or NY. That's why Aldridge and Gasol went to SA. So if we don't score any top-level free agents, it has NOTHING to do with Orlando not being a huge market; it's got everything to do with the fact that we suck *** as a team -- same reason why NY and LA had extreme difficulty scoring visits with top-tier free agent. Right now, the Knicks, Lakers, and Magic are all dysfunctional franchises that haven't made the playoffs in far too long. There's not much hope for either of these franchises, so why would players want to play there? Exactly, they don't, and they haven't.

    The fact is, when we start winning, we'll attract free agents. It's a vicious cycle: no one wants to come to Orlando because we suck. Well, we suck because no one wants to come here. That's why it's imperative we score in the draft, if for no other reason than to convince a star or a plus player with potential that we have some semblance of hope. And if that rookie turns out to be a star, even better! But please, let's get away from this silly notion that players desperately want to play in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago only.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Name them. It happens incredibly infrequently, especially lately.

    T-Mac was not a "star" at the time, but he was on the verge. We had an advantage over most teams in that T-Mac was interested in playing closer to home (us) and we had tons of money to blow, especially after the Duncan thing flopped. Grant was definitely a star, but man...why are we pretending that landing him (or T-Mac) is anything other than the exception to the rule. Anomalies, even.

    Look, Henny didn't pull off any miracles but I really have a hard time criticizing him too much for his drafting and his ability to con a star into playing for Orlando.

    What stars realistically could've he gotten (ignoring most restricted FAs):

    2013: Dwight & CP3. Dwight obviously wasn't happening and why the hell would CP3 leave LAC?

    2014: LeBron, Bosh, Dirk, Melo, Lowry, Bledsoe. No chance, no chance, no chance, no chance. Lowry stayed in Toronto, shunning Miami (more attractive), Houston (more attractive) amongst others. Bledsoe would've been nice and has long been coveted by people here, but he was an RFA.

    2015: LeBron, Kawhi, Marc, LMA, Love, Dray. No chance on any of those guys as far as I'm concerned.

    2016: KD, DeMar, Horford, Conley. Conley signed the biggest contract in NBA history at the time, Horford would've been an idiot to sign with us over Boston. The other two were never a chance.


    Who's this "star" we fault Henny from not signing. We gotta have some level of pragmatism here when we're assessing his tenure. Holding him to unrealistic and unfair standards is just silly. Same with the draft...we just had some ****** draft luck...it's not like he passed over anyone who was taken shortly after us that became a star. We just had really unlucky draft slots those three crucial years. Dipo was a fine pick, but he's a league-average player. AG was probably the right pick, but he might not ever amount to too much. I got no hope for Mario, but would Henny still be here had he drafted WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky or Winslow? Hell no.

    I'm fine with him leaving, but I don't think he should shoulder all the blame. I don't think many, or potentially any, GM has us terribly close to contending had the come in when he did

    And Alex Martins is still around and that sucks.

    I'm not even saying superstar but he failed in 5 years to either sign or trade for an all star. His trades were lateral moves at best outside of the Dwight one. Did you see the white board that got leaked? Showing our office season plans, who we were targeting, signing..etc. it literally said a trade for AG for Saric. His white board alone was enough to get him fired. Lol.

    His inexperience showed. He didn't know what direction he was moving the team.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RLundi View Post
    I'm so sick of people thinking all players are naturally drawn to mega cities like NY, LA, Chicago, Miami, etc.

    First of all, Miami isn't the fourth largest city in America. Idk where this idea of Miami being a mega city started but Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. are all larger than Miami, so maybe people need to mention them before Miami when they mention "big markets."

    Second, no one is banging down the Knicks' and Lakers' doors to sign with them. If these past few offseasons have taught us anything, it's that most players' main motivation to sign with a team is that they want to play with winning franchises. That's why Durant went to GS and not LA or NY. That's why Aldridge and Gasol went to SA. So if we don't score any top-level free agents, it has NOTHING to do with Orlando not being a huge market; it's got everything to do with the fact that we suck *** as a team -- same reason why NY and LA had extreme difficulty scoring visits with top-tier free agent. Right now, the Knicks, Lakers, and Magic are all dysfunctional franchises that haven't made the playoffs in far too long. There's not much hope for either of these franchises, so why would players want to play there? Exactly, they don't, and they haven't.

    The fact is, when we start winning, we'll attract free agents. It's a vicious cycle: no one wants to come to Orlando because we suck. Well, we suck because no one wants to come here. That's why it's imperative we score in the draft, if for no other reason than to convince a star or a plus player with potential that we have some semblance of hope. And if that rookie turns out to be a star, even better! But please, let's get away from this silly notion that players desperately want to play in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago only.


    Exactly. The "Noone wants to come here" is a flat out lame argument. As you stated players want to go to winning situations. The Magic is not the Cleveland Browns. Develop a winning culture and people will sign with us just like they did in 2009 when we had arguably the deepest deep in the NBA.

  9. #24
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    Feb 2014
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    Rlundi I totally agree we got Horace Grant and Rashard Lewis when we were winning. Stars will come when we start a winning culture. I also agree with you if you can't attract them you have to draft or trade for them. Henny has not shown the ability to do either.

  10. #25
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    I would have done any cousins trade as long as it didn't include AG. And i deff think the vuc Evan for DC rumor was true I mean they barley for anything for cousins and his value was super low.

    I also don't want much too do with ball he seems likely to run to Lakers asap. I also don't care for Isaac he seems like a long project fultz is number one and then I like Jackson Tatum monk Smith fox .... I think monk is a sleeper he is such a shooter and he also has some serious yamming abilities....

    Id rather trade the pick for a proven player if we stay at 5 ... Like butler or pg13 heck even steal zinger from Knicks with all their drama
    Last edited by TrAv=MaGiCfReAk; 04-19-2017 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #26
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    Side note: what's your guys handles on Twitter? I prob follow some of ya lol I'm @Magic_Bucs_OD

  12. #27
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    Never got into Twitter. Too unorganized and pointless for me.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by macc View Post
    His inexperience showed. He didn't know what direction he was moving the team.
    I think he had a pretty clear direction for the early years. The Dwight trade was the right start, he moved on from older guys who he should've moved on from, and he made a few savvy trades in doing so. It was very clearly all about accumulating young talent, trading players who aren't long-term pieces, and hope to hit in the draft. It was the right approach, it just didn't work...and then people started getting impatient.

    And I think a lot of that impatience probably falls at the feet of Alex Martins, ownership and lack of long-term security.

    I'll bow out after this because I don't really have much more to say, but ultimately (and hopefully more succinctly) I just think if you look at it all pragmatically, odds are far greater than not that almost any GM in Rob's position would've "failed" at this point. The drafts just didn't break right, and not because we drafted a Darko or an Oden over a Wade or a Durant. The free agent market never materialized, and I think it's unreasonable in today's NBA to expect a star to join a 25-35 win team, especially one without a clear franchise player of the future, and especially when so many teams have been able to offer max contracts recently. He didn't pull off a game-changing trade for a star who'd carry us forward, and maybe that's where he deserves the most criticism, but still...there's a reason young stars are traded so infrequently. Cousins is the obvious guy that we "missed out on" via trade, but does that even get us into the playoffs?

    The rebuild is an official failure and I think a true change of direction, and maybe a complete blow up of the roster, is needed. So in that regard, starting fresh is the right move. Bring in someone with no attachment or biases to anyone on the team or anyone in the organization and go to work. Unfortunately, with Martins around, I don't think we're going to get that.
    this my sig

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrAv=MaGiCfReAk View Post
    Side note: what's your guys handles on Twitter? I prob follow some of ya lol I'm @Magic_Bucs_OD
    Just followed you. @evan_flow

    Quote Originally Posted by RLundi View Post
    Never got into Twitter. Too unorganized and pointless for me.
    I love twitter. If you "organize" it and fine-tune who you follow, it's an unparalleled way to get all the news, info, takes, whatever that you could possibly ever need. I'm very clearly (and sadly) not a concise person, so it's good to remedy that too.
    this my sig

  15. #30
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    I agree with a lot of what you said manram. Personally, I believe that he passed on a Cousins deal and I will never forgive him. Even after all the bad luck, bad signings, missed draft prospects, bad trade (Ibaka), he still could've saved it. Yes, I would've loved Cousins on this team. For Vucevic and Fournier? Hell yes. Add Mario, the late pick, and Ross no problem. I think that's significantly better than Buddy Heild and the 10th pick.

    I would've loved to go after Cousins and Bledsoe, and keep Gordon. I think that would've been feasible. Payton and a future first could've probably gotten it done. Maybe include the Lakers pick. Two future firsts and Payton is a solid return IMO. Go into next season with (Smith, Tatum, Jackson,ect.)/Bledsoe/DJ/AG/Cousins/Biyombo and a good amount of cap space to add someone like Porter or KCP. I think they could've had a shot at building something good. I definitely prefer it to what we have now. Even if you take Bledsoe out of the equation, you still have the assets, the cap space, and the go to scorer.

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