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  1. #1
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    Official Phillies 2017 Roster discussion thread.

    You know how it goes.


    Authentic Phillies, Eagles , Sixers fan
    - I love Ray Lewis.

    "Do not scorn a weak cub, he may become a brutal tiger"

  2. #2
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    Efflin was great in his rehab start.

  3. #3
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    I'm not a fan of a number of the moves Klentak has made and I think he's getting too much of a pass. Everyone saw the Clay Buchholz trade was a mistake but since the Phillies had no opportunity to contend, everyone was ok with this because there was a chance Buchholz could be flipped at the deadline (a very very very very VERY small chance). Michael Saunders, ugh. Had 1/2 of a good season in 8 years but again no one thought this was a mistake because there was a chance he could be flipped. Talk of trading Cesar because of Howie Kendrick? Really?

    What about giving young guys the opportunity to play. Thank goodness Buchholz bailed Klentak out and pulled a typical Buchholz move and now we have Efflin (yes I know Efflin was injured but Buchholz would have kept him in the minors even with Buchholz sporting a 17.00 ERA). Aaron Altherr (you know the Jayson Werth clone) losing playing time, why? To maybe get a prospect in the 20-30 range for Kendrick or Saunders? Altherr is a stud and look back, I've been saying it since last season during his rehab in the majors when he was hurt.

    I'd rather see young guys play and figure it out then have veteran's taking key development at bats. That's the point of this post. I understand the value of veterans and I understand the idea of flipping at the trade deadline, but Buchholz isn't David Price and Saunders isn't even close to Hunter Pence and look what Pence got us Tommy Joseph, aka 2017's version of Travis Lee. Not the Buster Posey doppelganger he was advertised to be).

    Franco should be the first baseman of the future anyway. Forget Bryce Harper, I want Machado if I have to chose, both if I don't.
    Last edited by axstone26; 04-24-2017 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #4
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    First off, every team needs pitching depth throughout the year. Getting Buchholz was just that, adding depth that a team needs. He was a very effective pitcher in 2015 (not that long ago), so adding him was just hoping that we had another Hellickson type of situation. If he didn't pan out (or got hurt like he did) you can replace him with one of the younger pitchers, no harm no foul. There is no pitcher in our system who will be hurt by pitching in the minors for a longer period of time. If there was I they probably don't make the trade for him and take a chance of pitching depth that's cheaper in free agency. Eflin has also had multiple injuries since joining the big club last year, so there was no guarantee he'd be ready for the season (which he wasn't missing the start).

    As far as the OF goes, Altherr was far from a proven commodity. He was solid at the end of 2015 and struggled in 2016 (injury playing a major role). Putting all your eyes in the Altherr basket would have extremely risky considering his lack of track record (which he still has). They brought in cheaper short term contract bats to try and prevent what happened last year which was an absolute disaster in the outfield. If Altherr plays well (which he has), he will get playing time and his growth won't be stunted at all.

    Finally, regarding Cesar, they were testing the market for a player to see if they should could a major haul for him. They weren't planning on trading him because of Kendrick because if that were the case he would have been traded. If they managed to get a major haul for him, Kendrick would lesson the blow with his ability to play at 2nd. My guess is no talks got far with him and when that happened they took him off the market.

    I'm fully on board for playing young players when they are ready and have earned it through playing well in the lower levels. I trust the FO to make the correct decisions when the time is right.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by axstone26 View Post
    I'm not a fan of a number of the moves Klentak has made and I think he's getting too much of a pass. Everyone saw the Clay Buchholz trade was a mistake but since the Phillies had no opportunity to contend, everyone was ok with this because there was a chance Buchholz could be flipped at the deadline (a very very very very VERY small chance). Michael Saunders, ugh. Had 1/2 of a good season in 8 years but again no one thought this was a mistake because there was a chance he could be flipped. Talk of trading Cesar because of Howie Kendrick? Really?

    What about giving young guys the opportunity to play. Thank goodness Buchholz bailed Klentak out and pulled a typical Buchholz move and now we have Efflin (yes I know Efflin was injured but Buchholz would have kept him in the minors even with Buchholz sporting a 17.00 ERA). Aaron Altherr (you know the Jayson Werth clone) losing playing time, why? To maybe get a prospect in the 20-30 range for Kendrick or Saunders? Altherr is a stud and look back, I've been saying it since last season during his rehab in the majors when he was hurt.

    I'd rather see young guys play and figure it out then have veteran's taking key development at bats. That's the point of this post. I understand the value of veterans and I understand the idea of flipping at the trade deadline, but Buchholz isn't David Price and Saunders isn't even close to Hunter Pence and look what Pence got us Tommy Joseph, aka 2017's version of Travis Lee. Not the Buster Posey doppelganger he was advertised to be).

    Franco should be the first baseman of the future anyway. Forget Bryce Harper, I want Machado if I have to chose, both if I don't.
    I think all of what you said is very short sighted. He essentially got Kendrick and Bucc and Hellickson for nothing in trades. He also is paying Saunders and Benoit essentially peanuts. The risk-rewards would pay dividends on the rewards. The absolute worst thing that would happen would be he acquires equal value for what he gave up on those guys.

    He also got them for depth along side the potential to flip them. We wouldn't be seeing Altherr and Eflin unless those guys got hurt. IF they weren't on the team, then who would you have at depth behind Altherr and Eflin? If neither of those guys produced, you're worse off because you have no one to replace them.

    You're going to bring up the Hernandez being traded? Well he wasn't traded and probably because of what you said. For thinking but not moving Hernandez, you're going to count that as a knock? You should actually be applauding him for not moving him... that assessment makes no sense.

    The team wasn't competing with or without Klentak's moves. Acquiring assets is the name of the game right now and that's what he's doing. Rather than strapping the team with big, long FA contracts, he's acquiring guys on prove it deals/last years to see about getting something. Even if they don't flip them, if Bucc or Saunders would have great to above average years, they get the QO and probably decline.

    Anyone who disagrees with what Klentak is doing is being very ridiculous. A month worth of baseball play and you're criticizing the guy?

    I've like AA too and have said as much but you're looking at it as starter vs bench guy and that's just wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  6. #6
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    Burkey3472 and koldjerky I understand what both of you are stating and I understand the rationale behind your comments I just am not as sold and I don't trust the FO as much as both of you do (this coming from someone who loved Hinkie from day 1 and wishes he was still the GM of the Sixers).

    Here is where I'm going to get crushed, signing Buchholz required the Phillies to trade Alec Asher to the Orioles for nothing in order to clear up a 40 man roster spot. I would have rather had Asher than Buchholz. No one likes Asher because of his peripherals but I will be bringing his name up again I'm sure when he is a solid 3/4 pitcher down the road. Don't dismiss my opinion since no one knows exactly what Asher will be. We all knew what Buchholz was and is.

    Saunders is a prime buy low candidate just like Francoeur but I would have rather seen a young guy get at bats and not have Saunders take a 40 man roster spot and the Phillies have to dump Goeddel. The Phillies have young OF depth (Quinn, Altherr, Cozens) and I like the Nava signing and wouldn't have minded another backup outfielder on a minor league contract if depth was that big of a concern.

    Feel free to disagree, I just didn't like either of these moves at the time and don't like them now. I don't have an issue with the Kendricks move and I agree that Klentak was right not to trade Hernandez.
    Last edited by axstone26; 04-24-2017 at 11:44 AM.

  7. #7
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    I'm not saying I have faith in the front office, if anything I would give them an incomplete, I just don't feel like any of the deals they have made will set them back at all long term. We can nitpick with guys like Asher (I would have preferred someone else getting dealt) or Buchholz but looking at the big picture, are these deals going to set the team back at all? Are they really preventing players from developing in the majors? This team is in a great spot financial with almost no money invested in aging players (no long term money) and a solid farm system. This FO has a grace period until 2018 free agency in my mind due to the shape the team was in before. If they aren't competing for a WC spot in 2019 and have a few questionable contracts I will start losing faith.

  8. #8
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    No GM is going to hit 100% of the time. Even Theo Epstein has made a lot of clunkers that actually lead to worse outcomes then Klentak having to say bye to Asher and Goeddel. Also, there are plenty of teams in general who keep passing on players only to see them finally get it. Goedell has since been waived again after being claimed. I think he's still in limbo. I'm not going to fault a GM for not holding on to fringe players like that.

    Klentak hasn't made a splash anywhere yet and is just making small patch-work moves until it's the Phillies time to shine. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

    I just think it's too early and silly to 'not like' these moves when they've basically been depth and fodder type moves. He hasn't broken the back on a Ryan Howard extension type move and he hasn't found a Shane Victorino in the Rule 5 yet, either. He's wading in the water right now until the right wave comes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  9. #9
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    The front office's moves have been perfectly rational and have committed practically no resources. Even with the money spent on Buchholz and Saunders, the Phillies are on track to be one of the most profitable teams - if not the most profitable - for a second straight season.

    Zach Eflin was holding Zach Eflin in the minors because he's just not a major league starter. Similarly, Asher is one of about 6 pitchers with that profile in the system (including Eflin). The talent evaluators said he was the worst of the bunch so he was cut. There's about a 10-25% chance he amounts to something. Goeddel is a fifth outfielder in a system crowded with 1st through 3rd outfielders. He had no future on this roster, and he's not good enough now to be in the majors.

    I'm peeved about Altherr not starting too, but otherwise I see no fault in the management of this team on the field or in the FO.
    Now writing for FanGraphs, RotoGraphs, The Hardball Times, and The Fake Baseball

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  10. #10
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    Great points all and I see the merit in everything stated. I am in wait and see mode with this FO as well. I like the idea of committing FA dollars to offense instead of getting burned with over paying starting pitchers at the tail end of their careers. No one mentions Halladay and Lee but their careers coming to an end sooner than expected had a larger impact than the Ryan Howard contract. I love all three and I don't see an issue with any of those moves so I'm not complaining just find it funny that Howard is the only one who takes the blame.

    All I'm trying to say is lets not give the FO a complete pass. No one is questioning their moves, even if they are rational, I miss spirited debate where no one is right or wrong but we flesh out the merits of moves rather than stating, I like it!
    Last edited by axstone26; 04-24-2017 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #11
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    Nola to the DL, do we get to see Pivetta or will it be Lively (probably Lively since he was called up last week) but I'm excited to see Pivetta but maybe both aren't legitimate major league starters as A Team States above, that Pivetta and Lively are two of about 6 pitchers with that profile in the system.

  12. #12
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    You can probably make a case for both but I saw beat writers say Pivetta will be the guy. It will be nice to see another young arm get a shot and hopefully exceed expectations.

  13. #13
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    Nice discussion over here, I'm looking forward AT's analysis on AA.


    Authentic Phillies, Eagles , Sixers fan
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  14. #14
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    Pivetta has a chance to be something average or better, although more likely as a reliever. I would have cut Lively before Asher, although I don't recall if he was on the 40-man at the time. He's supposed to live on deception, but he's like the least deceptive pitcher I've seen.

    I've been peeved all winter about Altherr getting blocked. Once he had that spring with the fresh swing mechanics, they needed to make an everyday role for him. Let Kendrick and Saunders platoon most days once the OF is full strength.
    Now writing for FanGraphs, RotoGraphs, The Hardball Times, and The Fake Baseball

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  15. #15
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    I know it's only like 40 PAs and I've been one of the biggest AA supporters for awhile now (go back and look at my posts over the years ) but I just wish he'd up his BB% closer or over 10%. Get to that 2015 AA we say in Philly. If he can do better than that slash line with the 10% walk rate, you're looking at an .850+ OPS guy constantly. I want that and Ithink he can do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

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