Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: Which would you take first overall 20 years ago?

Voters
55. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kobe

    39 70.91%
  • Dirk

    16 29.09%
Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 161
  1. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    20,764
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    You guys are overrating Kobe's defense. He hasn't been an elite defensive player for over a decade. His best defensive seasons were during the 2001-2003 years. I'm still shocked some of you keep bringing up the defensive teams he's been on when it's evident he didn't deserve at least five of those.

    And this question says "who would you start a team with."

    Do any of you truly think it's easier to build around Kobe than Dirk?
    Minus every single All-Defensive team you feel Kobe shouldn't have been on and he still has more than Dirk. I'd also point out Kobe being good on defense "a decade ago" still encompasses nearly half his career.

  2. #107
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    13,042
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Minus every single All-Defensive team you feel Kobe shouldn't have been on and he still has more than Dirk. I'd also point out Kobe being good on defense "a decade ago" still encompasses nearly half his career.
    Kobe's personality is what loses this for me. I just pointed out his overrated defensive accomplishments. You have to build him with specific players. Dirk is a different case and would work with anyone. I'd take that guy. And yes, Dirk would have more rings if he played with Shaq as well.

  3. #108
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    20,764
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Kobe's personality is what loses this for me. I just pointed out his overrated defensive accomplishments. You have to build him with specific players. Dirk is a different case and would work with anyone. I'd take that guy. And yes, Dirk would have more rings if he played with Shaq as well.
    I get the personality argument. I think we're giving Dirk too much credit, he needs a very specific team/player to win too. If you don't have an elite rim-protecting C who can guard PFs and recover and help on Dirk's man you won't win with Dirk.

    And if you take out all of Shaq's rings, Kobe still has more rings than Dirk.

  4. #109
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    13,042
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I get the personality argument. I think we're giving Dirk too much credit, he needs a very specific team/player to win too. If you don't have an elite rim-protecting C who can guard PFs and recover and help on Dirk's man you won't win with Dirk.

    And if you take out all of Shaq's rings, Kobe still has more rings than Dirk.
    Kobe has had more help, though. Dirk has never played with a player of Pau's caliber. Seriously; even in 2011, I wouldn't say it was the Mavs that were just "too good" but LeBron just choking away what should have been his first ring.

    I'm not sure we're giving Dirk enough credit for staying with the Mavs through it all and I've never heard one bad thing about him. Personally, I just find it easier to get others to play with Dirk. He's not going to dominate the ball and he's an absolute savage when it matters (one of the few players who actually improves in the playoffs). I just think about it from the perspective if Dirk had Shaq early on in his career. Shaq probably wouldn't have left and they would have continued winning for a longer duration.

  5. #110
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,035
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    You guys are overrating Kobe's defense. He hasn't been an elite defensive player for over a decade. His best defensive seasons were during the 2001-2003 years. I'm still shocked some of you keep bringing up the defensive teams he's been on when it's evident he didn't deserve at least five of those.

    And this question says "who would you start a team with."

    Do any of you truly think it's easier to build around Kobe than Dirk?
    If by "easier" you mean just to plug random players into a lineup than you have a point. But is the goal to simply put a decent team out on the floor OR is it to win and compete for titles? If it's the latter then there's better choice than Kobe.

    Yes i get that Kobe's alpha personality and ball dominance requires a specific mix of players but it's not like you couldn't. Kobe's had two lasting title runs with 2 totally different lineups throughout his career.

    I really don't understand the premise of your argument.

  6. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    13,042
    Quote Originally Posted by Supreme LA View Post
    If by "easier" you mean just to plug random players into a lineup than you have a point. But is the goal to simply put a decent team out on the floor OR is it to win and compete for titles? If it's the latter then there's better choice than Kobe.

    Yes i get that Kobe's alpha personality and ball dominance requires a specific mix of players but it's not like you couldn't. Kobe's had two lasting title runs with 2 totally different lineups throughout his career.

    I really don't understand the premise of your argument.
    By easier, I mean there wouldn't be any drama involved and since he's not a ball dominator, you wouldn't have to worry about alpha personality.

    And you keep forgetting he played with Shaq and his second stint was still a very solid team. Pau Gasol was an absolute animal. Who did Dirk play with?

  7. #112
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    49,560
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Well they won 3, and then he won 2 more after that.

    Also keep in mind, replace Kobe with an average player, lakers aren't winning three in a row. Probably not two either.
    How are they not winning three in a row from 00-02?

    Shaq
    00 Playoffs - 30.7/15.4/3.1/2.4/0.6 - .566 TS%, 31.4 Usage, 25.0 Game Score, 115 ORtg
    01 Playoffs - 30.4/15.4/3.2/2.4/0.4 - .564 TS%, 32.1 Usage, 24.1 Game Score, 113 ORtg
    02 Playoffs - 28.5/12.6/2.8/2.5/0.5 - .569 TS%, 31.5 Usage, 22.0 Game Score, 112 ORtg

    Kobe
    00 Playoffs - 21.1/4.5/4.4/1.5/1.5 - .517 TS%, 26.7 Usage, 14.5 Game Score, 107 ORtg (missed a game in the Finals that they won)
    01 Playoffs - 29.4/7.3/6.1/0.8/1.6 - .555 TS%, 30.4 Usage, 22.0 Game Score, 116 ORtg
    02 Playoffs - 26.6/5.8/4.6/0.9/1.4 - .511 TS%, 30.1 Usage, 17.3 Game Score, 107 ORtg


    He had little to do with 2000. Not nearly as productive as Shaq in 02 but shot more than he should have. You could possibly argue 01 he nearly equally as important through that run. But Shaq didn't need Kobe. But Kobe needed Shaq.

  8. #113
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dallas/Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    By easier, I mean there wouldn't be any drama involved and since he's not a ball dominator, you wouldn't have to worry about alpha personality.

    And you keep forgetting he played with Shaq and his second stint was still a very solid team. Pau Gasol was an absolute animal. Who did Dirk play with?
    The great Jason Terry that "STACKED" 2011 mavs team who went 2-7 without Dirk that same season 😂😂😂

  9. #114
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    20,764
    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Kobe has had more help, though. Dirk has never played with a player of Pau's caliber. Seriously; even in 2011, I wouldn't say it was the Mavs that were just "too good" but LeBron just choking away what should have been his first ring.

    I'm not sure we're giving Dirk enough credit for staying with the Mavs through it all and I've never heard one bad thing about him. Personally, I just find it easier to get others to play with Dirk. He's not going to dominate the ball and he's an absolute savage when it matters (one of the few players who actually improves in the playoffs). I just think about it from the perspective if Dirk had Shaq early on in his career. Shaq probably wouldn't have left and they would have continued winning for a longer duration.
    Can people stop disrespecting Steve Nash? Only when it comes to Dirk could people look at a 2-time MVP and say "Dirk played with nobody". I get it, he wasn't "Steve Nash"... except that argument is kind of hollow. Nash was 29 when he went to Phoenix, he didn't suddenly get better he was simply in a better scheme for his talents. He was still an All-NBA caliber player next to Dirk.

    I get the Dirk loyalty argument and maybe Shaq wouldn't have left, but whose to say they win more than 3 titles with Shaq getting lazy and fat? Heck, when Shaq/Kobe were winning their first ring Dirk was averaging 17.5/6.5 in his second season. The Lakers likely lose that WCF to the Blazers.

  10. #115
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,438
    It's possible Shaq may reduced Dirk's effectiveness and reduce him to just a shooter. Part of Dirk's game is his ability to take you inside and outside. He uses either or to set you up. With shaq I'm not saying he still can't do that, but the spacing would be more clogged for him to maximize that strategy. But him and Shaq in the triangle would be filthy as both have good feel as passers, so you never know how Phil would utilize them. The possibilities are intriguing.

  11. #116
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    34,635
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Can people stop disrespecting Steve Nash? Only when it comes to Dirk could people look at a 2-time MVP and say "Dirk played with nobody". I get it, he wasn't "Steve Nash"... except that argument is kind of hollow. Nash was 29 when he went to Phoenix, he didn't suddenly get better he was simply in a better scheme for his talents. He was still an All-NBA caliber player next to Dirk.

    I get the Dirk loyalty argument and maybe Shaq wouldn't have left, but whose to say they win more than 3 titles with Shaq getting lazy and fat? Heck, when Shaq/Kobe were winning their first ring Dirk was averaging 17.5/6.5 in his second season. The Lakers likely lose that WCF to the Blazers.
    My point being - was Steve Nash in Dallas a more productive player than Pau Gasol was in Los Angeles? I say no. So even the best teammate Dirk had wasn't as good as Kobe's 2nd best teammate he's ever had when they were all on their respective teams



  12. #117
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    41,004
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Can people stop disrespecting Steve Nash? Only when it comes to Dirk could people look at a 2-time MVP and say "Dirk played with nobody". I get it, he wasn't "Steve Nash"... except that argument is kind of hollow. Nash was 29 when he went to Phoenix, he didn't suddenly get better he was simply in a better scheme for his talents. He was still an All-NBA caliber player next to Dirk.

    I get the Dirk loyalty argument and maybe Shaq wouldn't have left, but whose to say they win more than 3 titles with Shaq getting lazy and fat? Heck, when Shaq/Kobe were winning their first ring Dirk was averaging 17.5/6.5 in his second season. The Lakers likely lose that WCF to the Blazers.
    Some metrics grade one of Nash seasons with Dallas higher than even his first mvp season.

  13. #118
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    13,042
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Can people stop disrespecting Steve Nash? Only when it comes to Dirk could people look at a 2-time MVP and say "Dirk played with nobody". I get it, he wasn't "Steve Nash"... except that argument is kind of hollow. Nash was 29 when he went to Phoenix, he didn't suddenly get better he was simply in a better scheme for his talents. He was still an All-NBA caliber player next to Dirk.

    I get the Dirk loyalty argument and maybe Shaq wouldn't have left, but whose to say they win more than 3 titles with Shaq getting lazy and fat? Heck, when Shaq/Kobe were winning their first ring Dirk was averaging 17.5/6.5 in his second season. The Lakers likely lose that WCF to the Blazers.
    I don't know where to even begin.

    1) That wasn't the same Steve Nash. Stop. There was a clear difference in Nash's development and he far from the MVP-caliber player we saw in Phoenix with such a stacked offensive squad. Dallas never had that at the time so it's not even fair to equate Nash in his Dallas days to Phoenix. By your logic, did Isaiah Thomas just get better or was he always this good? He's fairly old for someone who just became an elite player but he has improved significantly and there is no debate regarding that.

    2) Fat Shaq was still a beast in 2004 to 2006 and Dirk was playing at such a high level then. Remember, they made the NBA Finals and if not for Wade going historically GOAT levels at the NBA Finals, Dirk would have essentially carried a team like Hakeem did with Houston.

    3) Dirk averaging 17.5/6.5 was nothing to scoff at. Kobe got easier touches with Shaq being there so that definitely plays a role. Shaq allowed Kobe to develop at his own pace whereas other players such as LeBron had to be the go-to guy right out of the league. Not to mention that Dirk would have fit exceptionally well with Shaq because he would draw frontcourt defenders away and no one doubles Shaq with Dirk in the perimeter.

    4) Even though Nash was a very good player, please don't act like Pau Gasol wouldn't be the best player Dirk would have played with. The simple fact is Kobe has had more help by virtue of the Lakers organization. It would really be difficult to build around Kobe when he trashtalks half the players he has played with. Hell, even the CURRENT team, they hated Kobe. When they said Kobe will "mentor" them, I already knew it was a bad move. Kobe is not a mentor because he'll project his level of play with an average player. D'Angelo said there was more freedom with Kobe gone.. Who the hell says those things? Answer: Someone who doesn't have respect for another.

  14. #119
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,588
    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    But Nash was a 14/7 type player, not the 17/11 he became in Phoenix. He was a later bloomer. Kobe had far and away more help than Dirk ever did
    At the time Dirk and Nash played together they also had a coach that would bench you for playing defense.

  15. #120
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    13,042
    I'm still amazed how much you guys forget Shaq dominated. Literally, you stuff Shaq with another All-Star quality player and you were favorites to win a ring. I can't imagine a scenario in which Allen Iverson, Dirk Nowitzki, and KG don't win three rings without prime Shaq. That's absurd. Prime LeBron and prime Shaq would probably be tormenting the league like no one would imagine.

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •