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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG2TB View Post
    I see what you're saying. I still don't think Ainge is willing to give up both the 2017 and 2018 picks though.
    Which would be monumentally stupid. He literally just saw evidence that Jimmy Butler would be the type of player who could give his team a fighting chance against a player in Lebron where they had no chance.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentel1980 View Post
    Caveat: I apologize for how long the post is, but not really. Read it. Or don't.

    Everyone likes to re-imagine history in that MJ made this franchise historically great overnight, and simply “lucking” into him developing into the GOAT as a #3 pick in a draft. There were quite a few other moves that followed years of MJ's development (and a lost season d/t injury). However, the blueprint to replicating the 1990s Bulls' success is very obtainable; however, only in the absence of Jimmy Butler. I think we can all agree that Butler can be 'the Pippen', but isn’t likely to be 'the MJ'. At the very least, getting Butler his Pippen is significantly more difficult in today's NBA and as the Bulls are constructed.

    Re-examine:
    - Michael Jordan. Drafted in 1984 w/ Pick #3.
    - Scottie Pippen. Traded up in 1987 draft (#8 and future 1st rounder) to be picked at #5.
    - Horace Grant. Drafted 1987 at #10 w/their own pick.
    - BJ Armstrong. Re-obtained draft rights from Pippen trade before 1989 draft for: Brad Sellers.

    Now, for six years prior to becoming the Bulls team that we all still hold onto today:
    1984/1985, Year 1: 38-44. Lost 1-3 to Bucks in 1st round.
    1985/1986, Year 2: 30-52. Swept by Celtics in 1st round
    1986/1987, Year 3: 40-42. Swept by Celtics in 1st round.
    1987/1988, Year 4: 50-32. Lost 1-4 to Pistons in Eastern Semi-Finals.
    1988/1989, Year 5: 47-35. Lost 2-4 to Pistons in Eastern Finals.
    1989/1990, Year 6: 55-27. Lost 3-4 to Pistons in Eastern Finals.

    In the half of a decade of prime drafting here, does anyone realize the Bulls whiffed much more significantly and often than not?

    1985 draft. After Jordan’s first year and a quick first round exit. Bulls draft Keith Lee with the #11 pick. Imagine if they ‘got it right’ and instead drafted Joe Dumars (#18) or Terry Porter (#24)? Or just imagine, if they hit back-to-back draft homeruns and drafted…Karl Malone (#13).

    1986 draft. Not a very historical great class, but Brad Sellers (#9) was drafted ahead of Dell Curry (#15), Arvydas Sabonis for the first of many times (#24), Mark Price (#25), Dennis Rodman (#27), Nate McMillan (#30), Jeff Hornacek (#46), and RIP Drazen Petrovic (#60).

    1987 draft. Bulls absolutely owned this draft (Pippen/Grant). But guess what? Second and third order effects. Had Bulls drafted Malone in 1985 and/or Rodman in 1986, might not have looked at Grant (#10) and instead looked more closely at getting Reggie Miller (#11).

    1988 draft. Will Perdue at #11. While an ‘important’ big to the first 3 titles, it is hard to imagine the Bulls taking anyone but a center in this draft (already a smaller team a/o the revisionist history team annotated above). Maybe a PG. Other options would have been Dan Majerle (#14), Rod Strickland (#19), Vinny Del Negro (#29), Grant Long (#33), Vernon Maxwell (#47), Steve Kerr (#50) or Anthony Mason (#53).

    1989 draft. Most people may not remember, but the Bulls drafted THREE times in the Top 20 in this draft. Stacey King (#6), BJ Armstrong (#18) and Jeff Sanders (#20). Passed up? Nick Anderson (#11), Mookie Blaylock (#12), Tim Hardaway (#14), Dana Barros (#16), Shawn Kemp (#17), Vlade Divac (#26) and Cliff Robinson (#36).

    Bottom Line? This franchise ****ed up every year (except maybe not 1987) after they drafted Jordan in 1984. Sound familiar? (see: Derrick Rose). Because they screwed up badly in the early 2000s, they refuse to go that route today? I just pointed out that they are equally as terrible talent evaluators then as they were 15-20 years ago. The early 2000s stung hard, because a) it was directly after 6 championships and putting the Bulls on the map, and b) it failed miserably. We are now almost two decades removed from glory. How many Bulls "fans" today are because of Jordan vs. the product they've seen in their lifetime? Same for corporate sponsors. Time to hit the reset button. Time to stop living in the past and basking in profits and memories from the previous millennium.

    Long-windedness coming to an end soon…

    1. Trade Butler for <insert who gives a crap> players, plus those 2017 and 2018 Net picks.
    2. 1984 Draft, Pick #3 becomes: 2017 Draft, Pick #1-4 (via Nets). The ‘new Jordan’
    3. 1987 Draft, Pick #5 becomes: 2018 Draft, Pick #1-4 (via Nets). The ‘new Pippen’
    4. 1987 Draft, Pick #10 becomes: 2018 Draft, Lottery pick (Bulls own pick). The ‘new Grant’
    5. 1989 Draft, Pick #18 becomes 2017/2018, late 1st round pick. (Sellers = Lopez).

    Instead of 3 years before Jordan gets his Batmen (Pippen/Grant) plus another 2 years for their development, we’d have our "new trio" together after one year. Plus, add in the ‘new Armstrong’ in the same time frame, and you've compressed the quartet together from six years down to two. What the current Bulls have that the 1980s Bulls didn't have, is a couple of young players for hope/possibility (Valentine, Payne, Grant, Portis) that can develop alongside them and see if they can stick it out to be a value-added supporting cast.

    What are everyone else's thoughts? I realize this is another "trade Butler or not" type of thread, but it should be a real discussion and a dedicated thread vs. being a buried blurb or two w/in a trade deadline thread (which has passed and is a defunct point now).

    To Butler or Not to Butler: that should be the absolute focal point of this franchise.
    You can simplify it with this...

    What is a GMs job even Before talent evaluator ... ?

    To know the lifecycle of a team and understand where you are in it. To be able to answer the question, "can we have a chance to win a championship with this group + capitalization on the picks we are likely to get with this group?" And proof that you are right should at least be conference finals game victories.

    When derrick rose shows you the 2011 season you have talent sufficient to think that you are at the beginning of a championship life cycle and you owe it to yourself to get as good as you can as fast as you can. By the end of the 2014 season at the latest it should have become apparent that bad luck with Rose or not, the team was at the end of that life cycle.

    Let's remove ourselves from the Bulls for clarity.

    When Urlacher is on the team and you add Briggs, Tillman, Harris, brown, etc and you look like you do in 05, 06... prime life cycle territory... get as good as you can as fast as you can and throw your chips in. By 08 when your talent is aging and your young talent is Devin Hester and nobody else ... you tear it down so you can bottom out and get good again as fast as you can. You DONT trade two first rounders for Jim Everett Jr....

    Where are you in the lifecycle of a contender? Bulls have been dead for some time

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnycumlately View Post
    Oh so the bulls can stay barely relevant and you might luck into the playoffs followed by a swift exit? You trade butler's *** while value is high, his style will not last long as he constantly looks for contact. The fact some think we should not trade butler makes me think maybe humanity should take a break from breeding.
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    (Topic: Pat Riley)Yeah snorting coke off of Lebron James thigh obviously makes you crazy.

  4. #34
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    What about a trade with Philly? Jimmy + Next years first round for:

    Their #3 pick this year, Next years first rounder, Jahlil Okafor and let's say Jerryd Bayless (2018-2019 Gerented) or Gerald Henderson (2018 team option) so the money works out.

    Should the bulls go for that? Ask for more? Would philly say yes to this?

    Get ready for number 7 !

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayonatan View Post
    What about a trade with Philly? Jimmy + Next years first round for:

    Their #3 pick this year, Next years first rounder, Jahlil Okafor and let's say Jerryd Bayless (2018-2019 Gerented) or Gerald Henderson (2018 team option) so the money works out.

    Should the bulls go for that? Ask for more? Would philly say yes to this?
    I'd pass if I were Chicago. This trade just doesn't have any established NBA talent. Also, putting Jimmy on that team makes me speculate that next year's first round pick will likely be outside the top 10.


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  6. #36
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    While I don't want to help LeBron at all, I keep thinking that Jimmy would be their missing link. What would an inter-division trade look like?

    First, I'm pessimistic because they don't have a first round pick. If we are trading Jimmy, that's almost a necessity.

    Jimmy for Love and Thompson would be what I would consider.


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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ho_va2006 View Post
    I'd pass if I were Chicago. This trade just doesn't have any established NBA talent. Also, putting Jimmy on that team makes me speculate that next year's first round pick will likely be outside the top 10.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah, but don't you think Okafor + the #3 pick + the salary dump (and an option of a lottery pick next year) is a good enough deal? (If we are to decide that we are not going to contend with Jimmy in the next 2-3 years...)

    Get ready for number 7 !

  8. #38
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    If the Bulls do move Jimmy Buckets GarPax will bring back junk players in the deal.

    Same clowns that gave Bozzer a max contract. Same clowns that traded Nurkic and Gary Harris (plus a 2nd round pick) to the Nuggets for Doug McDermott and Anthony Randolph.

    This team is screwed until these two clowns are gone. JR is too loyal so maybe these two should just resign as we are going on 20 years from the last tittle.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayonatan View Post
    Yeah, but don't you think Okafor + the #3 pick + the salary dump (and an option of a lottery pick next year) is a good enough deal? (If we are to decide that we are not going to contend with Jimmy in the next 2-3 years...)
    Okafor excites nobody- couldn't get much interest at the deadline

    What good are salary dumps when our team is scrapped to garbage and no legitimate FAs will come here after Jimmy leaves.


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  10. #40
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    Yeah you can't mention a trade to Philly unless we are getting their 3rd, next years pick and Simmons at least. IMO an established star like Jimmy is worth at least 2 top 3 picks. The reason being is you know what you get with Butler. You could end up with 2 anthony Bennets with those picks. You gotta at least have 2 in case one is a complete bust.

  11. #41
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    I'd be more than happy with getting Saric back in a deal. Him, Anderson and the 3rd pick.

    I don't think Butler to them makes much sense though.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdv36 View Post
    No
    Yes

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chisox721 View Post
    Yes
    How was this trade a blueprint to 90's bulls???? We traded our best player for a kid who just blew his ACL??? After rose why even deal with that! Dunn I kinda like but the best part was our draft pick!! We move up and draft a European player! Honestly the only people that should've been traded was the front office period!
    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    (Topic: Pat Riley)Yeah snorting coke off of Lebron James thigh obviously makes you crazy.

  14. #44
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    What's wro with drafting a European player? There have been tons of hall of fame non-American players in the league. Hakeem, Dirk, Nash, Giannis eventually, Ginobili, Parker, Yao. Then there have been a plethora of good players like Batum, Ibaka, Porzingis, Etc



  15. #45
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    Personally I'm just not a fan... hopefully this kid works out... who knows... I know it's gonna be a very long year.
    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    (Topic: Pat Riley)Yeah snorting coke off of Lebron James thigh obviously makes you crazy.

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