Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 154
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    26,370
    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    I think that in bold is a bit much. I think what is happening is the older writers are slowly being replaced by writers who grew up in the PED era.

    I am not about pretending. The not getting in shows it did happen. They were already rewarded with an absorbent amount of money.

    You saying, "I think MLB writers are smart enough (for the most part) to know who are the guys who belong in even with PED suspicion." is no more better or worse than basing decisions on hearsay. How much do you take off? 25%, 50%, 75%? What about someone like Arod who has it around him that he's done them since he was 18? How much do you take off?

    If you put one in without knowing and you find out later they did, pull them out. And I say that with even liking Rickey Henderson as a kid.
    There are still enough older voters where if a player rubs a reporter the wrong way, he doesn't get in. Those are usually the same guys who cast a ballot with Tim Wakefield on it because that writer was from Boston and Wakefield helped break the curse.

    If you are trying to distinguish what's artificial talent and what's real talent, I do think the writers have a solid idea of who primarily needed PEDs to get in and who used PEDs as an ancillary motivation to make more money and pad stats. Sure, you can make the case that they are one in the same but there is a distinct difference between 1999 Barry Bonds and 2001 Barry Bonds for example and specifically the age in which he started hitting like he was in a video game. There are enough tools that you can get a pretty solid idea of what a natural aging curve would have been like and what kind of stats he would have put up through normal regression. That comes from years and year of studying normal regression curves for HOF players. Basically, he was a HOFer with or without the PEDs even though most are positive he did them.

    There is a big difference between that and Sammy Sosa though.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-10-2017 at 04:00 AM.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,674
    The Baseball HOF used to be the toughest to get in to. I'll take that back. It still is. But it's almost as if they are letting very good players in like it's nothing. The four that Jeffy is referring to are all very good players. HOF'ers? I don't think so. The standard is so low that it's lost it's luster.

    Raines: How on earth is he on the level of all time greatness? He had a very good career. Nothing more.

    Vlad: He very well may have been a user. The speculation is only because of the era he spent his career. The one where it was common practice to do PED's. That aside, I think that he is the best of the bunch.

    Bags: One of the most obvious users in the game. Speculation has been swirling around him for just about his whole career. If he gets in, they should just put all the users in and get it over with.

    Pudge: Another clear user.


    For the record, we DO NOT NEED EVIDENCE to know a player was using. A little common sense should do it. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

    I used to be able to tell a person every HOF'er in the game if asked. It's just so saturated with players that are not worthy, that I've lost my passion for it. I hate to see users and very good players getting in.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    48,274
    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    The Baseball HOF used to be the toughest to get in to. I'll take that back. It still is. But it's almost as if they are letting very good players in like it's nothing. The four that Jeffy is referring to are all very good players. HOF'ers? I don't think so. The standard is so low that it's lost it's luster.

    Raines: How on earth is he on the level of all time greatness? He had a very good career. Nothing more.

    Vlad: He very well may have been a user. The speculation is only because of the era he spent his career. The one where it was common practice to do PED's. That aside, I think that he is the best of the bunch.

    Bags: One of the most obvious users in the game. Speculation has been swirling around him for just about his whole career. If he gets in, they should just put all the users in and get it over with.

    Pudge: Another clear user.


    For the record, we DO NOT NEED EVIDENCE to know a player was using. A little common sense should do it. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

    I used to be able to tell a person every HOF'er in the game if asked. It's just so saturated with players that are not worthy, that I've lost my passion for it. I hate to see users and very good players getting in.
    I have no issue with people wanting a smaller hall. In fact, over the years I've started to lean toward wanting that myself.

    Vlad wouldn't have my vote. Raines would, Pudge too. Too much success. Bagwell should probably be in, but I've never had to argue for or against him.



    At least this isn't the NBA hall of fame where every player who is half decent gets in. There is still some selectness that goes into it.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I have no issue with people wanting a smaller hall. In fact, over the years I've started to lean toward wanting that myself.

    Vlad wouldn't have my vote. Raines would, Pudge too. Too much success. Bagwell should probably be in, but I've never had to argue for or against him.



    At least this isn't the NBA hall of fame where every player who is half decent gets in. There is still some selectness that goes into it.
    Hahahahaha... You got that right. The same goes for the Football Hall of Fame. Although it's still the most difficult Hall of Fame to get into they certainly have eased up on who gets in. It really bothers me a lot

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    355
    Last edited by Rush; 01-18-2017 at 07:13 PM. Reason: PLEASE DO NOT EMBED IMAGES. LINK TO THEM INSTEAD.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles County, CA
    Posts
    36,587
    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Hahahahaha... You got that right. The same goes for the Football Hall of Fame. Although it's still the most difficult Hall of Fame to get into they certainly have eased up on who gets in. It really bothers me a lot
    Player A: PA-10,232, OBP-.388, ISO- .121, OPS+- 132, TIMES ON BASE- 3,955, WAR- 68.9, WAR/162g- 4.57

    Player B: PA- 10,359, OBP-.385., ISO- 131, OPS+- 123, TIMES ON BASE - 3,977, WAR- 69.1, WAR/162g- 4.47

    One of these is Tim Raines and the other was a first ballot HOF considered to be a legendary hitter. Still feel that Raines is getting in cheaply?

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    48,274
    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    Player A: PA-10,232, OBP-.388, ISO- .121, OPS+- 132, TIMES ON BASE- 3,955, WAR- 68.9, WAR/162g- 4.57

    Player B: PA- 10,359, OBP-.385., ISO- 131, OPS+- 123, TIMES ON BASE - 3,977, WAR- 69.1, WAR/162g- 4.47

    One of these is Tim Raines and the other was a first ballot HOF considered to be a legendary hitter. Still feel that Raines is getting in cheaply?
    And this doesn't include that Raines is one the 3 greatest base runners in baseball history, while Gwynn basically clogged the bases the latter half of his career.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    48,274
    I'd say Raines, Bagwell, and Pudge are all locks at this point. Happy for Raines, well deserved.

    Figured Bagwell and Pudge would get in eventually.


    If Vlad and Hoffman miss this year, they'll for sure get in next year, along with Chipper for sure, and likely Thome too.

    Bonds and Clemens won't be far behind either and I can see a late push for Edgar still.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    355
    The 14 MLB.com writers eligible to vote revealed their ballots today:

    • Michael Bauman -- Jeff Bagwell, Vladimir Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Ivan Rodriguez, Lee Smith.
    • Barry Bloom -- Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Jorge Posada, Tim Raines, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Hal Bodley -- Bagwell, Hoffman, Martinez, Fred McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Curt Schilling.
    • Richard Justice -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling, Billy Wagner.
    • Jeffrey Flanagan -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Raines, Manny Ramirez, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Paul Hagen -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Smith, Wagner.
    • Chris Haft -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Jeff Kent, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Jon Paul Morosi -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling.
    • Carrie Muskat -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Rodriguez.
    • Terence Moore -- Bagwell, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Smith.
    • Mark Newman -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling.
    • Tracy Ringolsby -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Smith, Walker.
    • Phil Rogers -- Bagwell, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling, Walker.
    • T.R. Sullivan -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez.


    With 75 percent of the vote needed for entry to the Hall in this count Bagwell (14), Rodriguez (14), Raines (13), and Hoffman (12) received enough support, with Bonds (10) and Clemens (10) just out.

    Their individual comments available here: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213641...-hall-of-fame/

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    The 14 MLB.com writers eligible to vote revealed their ballots today:

    • Michael Bauman -- Jeff Bagwell, Vladimir Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Ivan Rodriguez, Lee Smith.
    • Barry Bloom -- Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Jorge Posada, Tim Raines, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Hal Bodley -- Bagwell, Hoffman, Martinez, Fred McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Curt Schilling.
    • Richard Justice -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling, Billy Wagner.
    • Jeffrey Flanagan -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Raines, Manny Ramirez, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Paul Hagen -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Smith, Wagner.
    • Chris Haft -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Jeff Kent, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Smith.
    • Jon Paul Morosi -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling.
    • Carrie Muskat -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Rodriguez.
    • Terence Moore -- Bagwell, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Raines, Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Smith.
    • Mark Newman -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling.
    • Tracy Ringolsby -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Smith, Walker.
    • Phil Rogers -- Bagwell, Mussina, Raines, Rodriguez, Schilling, Walker.
    • T.R. Sullivan -- Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez.


    With 75 percent of the vote needed for entry to the Hall in this count Bagwell (14), Rodriguez (14), Raines (13), and Hoffman (12) received enough support, with Bonds (10) and Clemens (10) just out.

    Their individual comments available here: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213641...-hall-of-fame/
    Wow! A lot of juicers are getting votes. I guess it doesn't matter any more.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    32,986
    Bagwell, Raines, and Pudge get elected in.

    Hoffman missed out by 1% and Vlad by 3.3%.

    Bonds gets 53.8% of the votes, Clemens 54.1%, and Edgar Martinez 58.6%.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    551
    Not surprised by Pudge or Raines but people going off about Bagwell.

    Aaron Judge- MLB's Next Rising Star!

  13. #28
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    33,541
    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Wow! A lot of juicers are getting votes. I guess it doesn't matter any more.
    If it truly didn't matter anymore (as you say) Bonds and Clemens would already be in.

    "there's no shines in my shinebox"

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    11,565
    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    For the record, we DO NOT NEED EVIDENCE to know a player was using. A little common sense should do it. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
    For the record, this is one of the most absurd statements of all time.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    A Phillies Phan in Ocean Twp & BKLYN
    Posts
    6,504
    It appears the floodgates are opening up for the Roid Boys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •