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  1. #3256
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Sorry I didn't mean to skip your post. It was at the top of the page and I had several to answer. After realizing I felt like your post was covered anyway.

    Yes, the "you don't know" argument is inferior because you can't possibly know what it's like for anyone for a variety of reasons. You can possibly know what it's like to be a women, police officer, teacher, congressman, president, etc. We use our abilities to empathize much of which is based upon previous experiences. When it comes to policy and law making on a govt level we only use part of that empathy to enact those which may help.

    Sometime words used are not meant to be exact. But overall racism has gone down a lot since the 60s.

    I've been stopped and frisked 4-5 times in my life. Once the cop had a gun drawn because it was radioed to him that I "robbed a gas station." Once because my cousins truck fit the description of a vehicle in a crime. And twice because I was a white dude driving in my hood and looked like I could be buying drugs. The intent was to scare buyers away. And once because my car radio was too loud. It never bothered me.
    Surely they didn't tell you that you were stopped because you were white? What was their reasoning behind the stops? What offense did they allege?

  2. #3257
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Ok, so it's basically that it DOES exist, however people blow the idea of systematic racism out of proportion?

    I'm asking just cuz I'm curious as to your motivation behind your posts

    See, if we kind of push the idea that whites are entitled, then wether or not it's true or not, that will be the reality in many people's head, and so they will operate, wether consciously or subconsciously, as such.

    Same applies with blacks and lots of negative aspects that comes along with it as well as the subliminal bias it brings. My black friends from the burbs don't have stickers in their chest saying I'm from the burbs, nor do my friends from the hood. Like the HOOD hood. From the third party perspective, especially high tension situations, neither of them is going to be treated like they are from burbs or hood, they are BOTH gonna be treated exactly the same. Black. Very opposite of being treated as white.

    Trust me, I know. I've dipped in both. I'm a double dipper
    There are people in both the private and public sector that seek to gain attention or wealth of the subject of racism. The media, in particular, seeks to make profits from it. Several "major" stories that were suppose to be race related were not and the claims hurt people in the process. The Duke University case for one. The idea of systematic racism sells.

    That being said, I don't disagree with the numbers that show disproportionate numbers between black and white people when it comes to income, legal issues, etc. IMO, those issues are brought about by the difference in poverty, part of which was caused by racist practices in the past. The difference between my outlook and yours is that my way can be impacted by government intervention. Simply blaming systemic racism changes nothing and only time can change it.

    In my experience, people from the hood (white and black) are treated much differently than people who grew up in the hood. I can't say this is 100% fact. Obviously everyone's experience is different but in just my friends from the past who still live in the hood vs my friends who live in the burbs, there's a difference.

  3. #3258
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Surely they didn't tell you that you were stopped because you were white? What was their reasoning behind the stops? What offense did they allege?
    The reasons were pretty direct. Looked suspicious. Looked like I didn't "belong" in that neighborhood. Etc. it was the 90s in an extremely violent neighborhood. Things were different than now.

  4. #3259
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Those people were always going to roll their eyes, they were never going to believe it. More importantly, they don't want anything to do be done about it.
    many people have become sick and tired of the constant accusations that turn out to be false. just like the examples I have pointed out of the generalization of everyone white being racist. it's not fair to generalize all whites as being racist based on some, just like it wouldn't be fair to generalize all black being criminals based on some.
    in comparison I know others have been past being sick and tired of racism happening, so I'm not comparing the two. the false incidents only hurt real incidents and real victims of racism.



  5. #3260
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    in comparison I know others have been past being sick and tired of racism happening, so I'm not comparing the two. the false incidents only hurt real incidents and real victims of racism.
    Every sentence is an adventure with you.

  6. #3261
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    There are people in both the private and public sector that seek to gain attention or wealth of the subject of racism. The media, in particular, seeks to make profits from it. Several "major" stories that were suppose to be race related were not and the claims hurt people in the process. The Duke University case for one. The idea of systematic racism sells.

    That being said, I don't disagree with the numbers that show disproportionate numbers between black and white people when it comes to income, legal issues, etc. IMO, those issues are brought about by the difference in poverty, part of which was caused by racist practices in the past. The difference between my outlook and yours is that my way can be impacted by government intervention. Simply blaming systemic racism changes nothing and only time can change it.

    In my experience, people from the hood (white and black) are treated much differently than people who grew up in the hood. I can't say this is 100% fact. Obviously everyone's experience is different but in just my friends from the past who still live in the hood vs my friends who live in the burbs, there's a difference.
    Wether or not systematic racism sells, the fact that it exists should be enough reason to say, yes, this is something we should talk about. The fact that it exists should be enough reason to say, yes, if they are systematically targeted then it stands to reason they would like to vocalize it.

    To say yes, systematic racism exists, but then follow it up with what seems to say that your main concern in this whole thing is to ensure we don't overblow the effects of systematic racism, that seems an odd position to take.

    I don't get what ur saying regarding our outlooks. What's your outlook? And what is mine? Of course blaming things without following it with action helps no one, but there are many people who ARE attempting action, but they seem to face heavy opposition from people with a similar mentality as yours. I never said the extent of fixing things was just to blame, however to not even be aware or able to discuss this reality, that GUARANTEES for nothing to be fixed

    Of course there's a diff in people from rough areas vs rich, what I'm saying is that black is treated as black, regardless where they are from. Of course there are still differences that may allow one to work the situation much better than the other, from my personal experience blacks from the burbs are much better at switching over to whitespeak when the situation calls for it. But that's all secondary. The primary thing is black is treated as black, after that comes all the other stuff.
    Last edited by nastynice; 09-12-2017 at 03:18 AM.

  7. #3262
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Surely they didn't tell you that you were stopped because you were white? What was their reasoning behind the stops? What offense did they allege?

    Cops don't have to tell you ****.
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #3263
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Wether or not systematic racism sells, the fact that it exists should be enough reason to say, yes, this is something we should talk about. The fact that it exists should be enough reason to say, yes, if they are systematically targeted then it stands to reason they would like to vocalize it.

    To say yes, systematic racism exists, but then follow it up with what seems to say that your main concern in this whole thing is to ensure we don't overblow the effects of systematic racism, that seems an odd position to take.

    I don't get what ur saying regarding our outlooks. What's your outlook? And what is mine? Of course blaming things without following it with action helps no one, but there are many people who ARE attempting action, but they seem to face heavy opposition from people with a similar mentality as yours. I never said the extent of fixing things was just to blame, however to not even be aware or able to discuss this reality, that GUARANTEES for nothing to be fixed

    Of course there's a diff in people from rough areas vs rich, what I'm saying is that black is treated as black, regardless where they are from. Of course there are still differences that may allow one to work the situation much better than the other, from my personal experience blacks from the burbs are much better at switching over to whitespeak when the situation calls for it. But that's all secondary. The primary thing is black is treated as black, after that comes all the other stuff.
    You can believe that the laws and policies in this country have created a racial inbalance without believing those laws or policies have racial intentions- conscience or subconscious. You're looking at the effect and assigning a cause based on the effect. The reason people blame the effect is to keep people at odds with each other and maintain their control over the population. Pro life vs pro choice, systemic racism or not. If you want to go around just labeling a problem rather than solving it, it won't be resolved.

    IMO, the majority of issues we see with the disproportionate impact of certain laws is caused by poverty. The reason black people are more effected by poverty is not racism or systemic racism in 2017. It's because by the time black people were given equal opportunities in the work place, most blue collar jobs began being shipped overseas or just cut due to technology or other factors. Every ethnicity had to work their way up the social order. However, that was never really possibly for black people. When our society started changing from needing a high school diploma to needing a bachelors degree to make a good living, White people were more capable of making that shift. I agree a big factor of this was decades of racism. The question becomes, how do you fix it now? Calling it "systemic racism" and having rallies is not going to make a difference.

    I've mentioned several laws and policies I think need to be made to have a real change in other threads. I think that's a good start.

  9. #3264
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Sorry I didn't mean to skip your post. It was at the top of the page and I had several to answer. After realizing I felt like your post was covered anyway.

    Yes, the "you don't know" argument is inferior because you can't possibly know what it's like for anyone for a variety of reasons. You can possibly know what it's like to be a women, police officer, teacher, congressman, president, etc. We use our abilities to empathize much of which is based upon previous experiences. When it comes to policy and law making on a govt level we only use part of that empathy to enact those which may help.

    Sometime words used are not meant to be exact. But overall racism has gone down a lot since the 60s.

    I've been stopped and frisked 4-5 times in my life. Once the cop had a gun drawn because it was radioed to him that I "robbed a gas station." Once because my cousins truck fit the description of a vehicle in a crime. And twice because I was a white dude driving in my hood and looked like I could be buying drugs. The intent was to scare buyers away. And once because my car radio was too loud. It never bothered me.
    You have removed the original statement from its original intent. You have changed the argument to match your opinion. Suggesting that you will never know what is like to be a black man in regards to oppression and treatment, is a valid argument. Your original statement that you "got it" was the inferior comment. It got called out by many people and now you can't backpedal , so you twist the context and call the idea that you were simply incorrect by your original statement that "you get it". Suggesting that you can and never will get it is not inferior. Broadening the spectrum of the argument by adding your philosophical twist of "I will never know what anyone's life is like", doesn't diminish the original argument but instead shows denial.

    Racism has gone down since the 60s? How old are you? Were you alive in the 70s? I was and I can safely say that what I saw, heard and witnessed would cause me to disagree with the simplistic overview that over nearly 60 years, racism has gone down a great deal. Yes, things have improved but much of that didn't start till far more recently. So while strides have been made, we inched forward in the 70s, 80s and even into the 90s. After that, greater strides were made but the idea that it still exists on an institutional level, which it does. Many cops still think that way. They may not be racist on a person to person basis but the general overview that young black men pose a threat is a racist overtone that clearly exists.
    I'm not insulting the cops for that. That's what they were taught.

    It never bothered you to be held t gunpoint or be pulled over? That shows how white you are and how out of touch you are. You had no fear or worry? Why? Because you had no reason to believe that just because the color of your skin, you may be held longer, brought into jail, roughed up, or accused of resisting arrest so your car and person could be searched and in some cases, find a tiny bit of weed, that for a white kid would get thrown into the garbage but for a young black kid, would get him sent to jail.




    You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear.

  10. #3265
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    Quote Originally Posted by browski234 View Post
    Every sentence is an adventure with you.
    if you cherry pick some of my words then sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    many people have become sick and tired of the constant accusations that turn out to be false. just like the examples I have pointed out of the generalization of everyone white being racist. it's not fair to generalize all whites as being racist based on some, just like it wouldn't be fair to generalize all black being criminals based on some.
    in comparison I know others have been past being sick and tired of racism happening, so I'm not comparing the two. the false incidents only hurt real incidents and real victims of racism.
    I added on the "in comparison" because if I had only said the first bold I guarantee that it would have been followed with something like I was brushing off those that are sick and tired of racism. so I felt I had to include that to ensure people that I'm not brushing off those that are sick and tired of racism. when I said "I'm not comparing the two" maybe I could have worded it differently. what I meant with this is that I'm not only not brushing off those that are sick and tired of racism, but that I think anyone that has become sick and tired of (actual) racism is right and deserving of being sick and tired, and that I'm not comparing whites sick and tired of racism accusations to blacks sick and tired of racism as if they are equal. I know they're not equal.






    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/11...ar-labels.html

    Portland police reportedly scrap gang database over fear of labels
    Authorities in Portland, Ore., are reportedly scrapping their database of suspected gang members out of fear that these labels will most negatively affect minorities.

    Portland police, next month, will end its two-decade-old practice of designating people as gang members or associates following the pressure from the community, The Oregonian reported.

    Activists have been trying to abolish the database and gang designations for years, claiming they disproportionately affect minority communities.

    According to the data compiled by the paper, out of the 359 “criminal gang affiliates” listed in the police’s database, 81 percent were from an ethnic or racial minority.

    Mayor Ted Wheeler – who also serves as the city’s police commissioner – welcomed the decision, saying the change was “too long coming” and “the right thing do to do.”

    He added that the change shows the police’s commitment to rebuilding trust with the people.

    Capt. Mike Krantz, who also supported the change, emphasized that the decision does not mean the police is not taking gang crime seriously anymore.

    “Gang violence isn't going to go away. There are still crimes attributed to known gang sets. There are still criminal gang members. That doesn't go away because we don't have a gang designation,” he said, according to The Oregonian.

    “We're not pretending gang violence doesn't exist. We're just taking this one thing away.”

    In the past, Portland Police officers were able to include any individual in the gang database who self-identifies as a member of a gang, participates in a gang ritual, commits crimes related to a gang or shows at least two signs of a gang membership, according to The Oregonian.

    No arrest or conviction was needed to designate a person as a “criminal gang affiliate." More than 100 people a year were put in the registry by police authorities.

    According to Krantz, any reports indicating any person’s designation as a gang member will no longer exist from October 15. The police will instead record alleged criminal activities to help the officers evaluate whether an individual possesses a threat.

    He added that some police officers have voiced their concerns about the new policy, fearing it will impact their ability to tackle gang crime in Portland.
    this is stupidity. because by description most (81%) are minority they feels they need to do away with the entire program.



  11. #3266
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    many people have become sick and tired of the constant accusations that turn out to be false. just like the examples I have pointed out of the generalization of everyone white being racist. it's not fair to generalize all whites as being racist based on some, just like it wouldn't be fair to generalize all black being criminals based on some. in comparison I know others have been past being sick and tired of racism happening, so I'm not comparing the two. the false incidents only hurt real incidents and real victims of racism.
    While that may be true for some people, that is a façade to continue to not support black protests and causes. When in US history has the majority of white people supported when black people have demonstrated on an issue?

    They didn't even support black people struggling for civil rights in the 60's, so stop acting like everyone was behind black people until they started calling people racist. They started calling people racist because they were never behind black people.

  12. #3267
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    You can believe that the laws and policies in this country have created a racial inbalance without believing those laws or policies have racial intentions- conscience or subconscious. You're looking at the effect and assigning a cause based on the effect. The reason people blame the effect is to keep people at odds with each other and maintain their control over the population. Pro life vs pro choice, systemic racism or not. If you want to go around just labeling a problem rather than solving it, it won't be resolved.

    IMO, the majority of issues we see with the disproportionate impact of certain laws is caused by poverty. The reason black people are more effected by poverty is not racism or systemic racism in 2017. It's because by the time black people were given equal opportunities in the work place, most blue collar jobs began being shipped overseas or just cut due to technology or other factors. Every ethnicity had to work their way up the social order. However, that was never really possibly for black people. When our society started changing from needing a high school diploma to needing a bachelors degree to make a good living, White people were more capable of making that shift. I agree a big factor of this was decades of racism. The question becomes, how do you fix it now? Calling it "systemic racism" and having rallies is not going to make a difference.

    I've mentioned several laws and policies I think need to be made to have a real change in other threads. I think that's a good start.
    So if the effect of a law is racist, to me that is a racist law. Doesn't matter what the intention is. Someone serving a life senetence for being black isn't gonna feel any better because the "intention" wasn't there.

    I agree that a lot of this stems from poverty, but you seem to be missing the link between poverty and race. If we can see significant statistical differences in RACIAL socioeconomic equality, then by definition this is also a race issue. You are not the race which carries the extra baggage of being labeled as guilty of being poor, and then so treated like a criminal until proven otherwise, and so you're really in no position to speak about wether socioeconomic inequality bleeds over to racial inequality. This isn't to dismiss your opinion, but you have to understand that your opinions will be taken with a grain of salt, given that you seem to repetitively side with the anti minority group on most racial matters.

    Intent doesn't matter, what matter's is that that IS one of the end result of our system. That needs to be fixed, regardless of what any intent is. If you DON'T label a problem, again, that is a guarantee for it not be solved. We should go the route that at least gives us a chance, shouldn't we?

    Calling it systemic racism and having rallies has worked wonders for us in the past, without it we would have never had a black president. How could you look at that formula and come to the conclusion that it makes no difference?
    Last edited by nastynice; 09-12-2017 at 01:30 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #3268
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    Protesting doesn't work.

    Someone tell that to the 60's lol

  14. #3269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    You have removed the original statement from its original intent. You have changed the argument to match your opinion. Suggesting that you will never know what is like to be a black man in regards to oppression and treatment, is a valid argument. Your original statement that you "got it" was the inferior comment. It got called out by many people and now you can't backpedal , so you twist the context and call the idea that you were simply incorrect by your original statement that "you get it". Suggesting that you can and never will get it is not inferior. Broadening the spectrum of the argument by adding your philosophical twist of "I will never know what anyone's life is like", doesn't diminish the original argument but instead shows denial.

    Racism has gone down since the 60s? How old are you? Were you alive in the 70s? I was and I can safely say that what I saw, heard and witnessed would cause me to disagree with the simplistic overview that over nearly 60 years, racism has gone down a great deal. Yes, things have improved but much of that didn't start till far more recently. So while strides have been made, we inched forward in the 70s, 80s and even into the 90s. After that, greater strides were made but the idea that it still exists on an institutional level, which it does. Many cops still think that way. They may not be racist on a person to person basis but the general overview that young black men pose a threat is a racist overtone that clearly exists.
    I'm not insulting the cops for that. That's what they were taught.

    It never bothered you to be held t gunpoint or be pulled over? That shows how white you are and how out of touch you are. You had no fear or worry? Why? Because you had no reason to believe that just because the color of your skin, you may be held longer, brought into jail, roughed up, or accused of resisting arrest so your car and person could be searched and in some cases, find a tiny bit of weed, that for a white kid would get thrown into the garbage but for a young black kid, would get him sent to jail.
    No I didn't remove any intent. The statement prior to "I get it" should have clarified my intent.

    Yes, I was alive in the 70s and I'm fairly positive most would agree that overall our society is less racist. I'm not claiming it's perfect by any means but I Didn't even think that was debateable.

    For someone who claims "I can't understand what it's like to be black" (which I agree with), you sure do seem to think exactly what cops think and how they act. We're you ever a cop? How many have you surveyed? Was it a secure survey or general talk? See we can play that game from all sides.

    I wasn't scared about having a gun drawn because it wasn't the first time for me. I had been shot at on a couple of locations. And in the 90s, cops shooting people wasn't a summer of the shark type issue.

  15. #3270
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    So if the effect of a law is racist, to me that is a racist law. Doesn't matter what the intention is. Someone serving a life senetence for being black isn't gonna feel any better because the "intention" wasn't there.

    I agree that a lot of this stems from poverty, but you seem to be missing the link between poverty and race. If we can see significant statistical differences in RACIAL socioeconomic equality, then by definition this is also a race issue. You are not the race which carries the extra baggage of being labeled as guilty of being poor, and then so treated like a criminal until proven otherwise, and so you're really in no position to speak about wether socioeconomic inequality bleeds over to racial inequality. This isn't to dismiss your opinion, but you have to understand that your opinions will be taken with a grain of salt, given that you seem to repetitively side with the anti minority group on most racial matters.

    Intent doesn't matter, what matter's is that that IS one of the end result of our system. That needs to be fixed, regardless of what any intent is. If you DON'T label a problem, again, that is a guarantee for it not be solved. We should go the route that at least gives us a chance, shouldn't we?

    Calling it systemic racism and having rallies has worked wonders for us in the past, without it we would have never had a black president. How could you look at that formula and come to the conclusion that it makes no difference?
    So welfare, gun laws, marriage, child support and murder laws are all racist because all of them have disproportionate impacts among black and white people? How do you think we should go about punishing people for murder or do black people just get a "get out of jail free" card?

    What do you propose otherwise to fix the issues that doesn't unfairly give an advantage to black people or poor people in general? It's 2017. We can't change or rewrite the past. We can only move forward.

    Calling it systemic racism implies intent regardless of that's the intention or not. And the fact is that most people are just worn down by it. Simply saying "everyone stop being racist aholes" is not going to change anything. You can either spend your time trying to be right or you can be effective.

    And I'm sorry but having rallies didn't get Obama elected no more than they helped Trump, Bush, Clinton or anyone else. Rallies have just become so out of touch.

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