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  1. #16
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    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdood View Post
    Maybe we will have a miracle and win the lottery. I hope everyone is praying lol.
    Wouldn't that be nice....

  2. #17
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    let's try looking forward, instead of backward. crying about letting so-and-so go, we would be sooooo good if only blah-blah-blah had happened is counterproductive and asinine. if it had been favors leaving for big $$$ and he stepped his game up with a MUCH better cast than we have, y'all would be whining about the same thing.

    pull up your slip-on diaper and get over it already.
    HAWKS '13 ,'1 4, & '15 PREMIERS


    "I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti...ffftt ffftt ffftt!"


    "of course tom 'jan' brady would whine about a rule change."
    -chipurmunki


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipurmunki View Post
    let's try looking forward, instead of backward. crying about letting so-and-so go, we would be sooooo good if only blah-blah-blah had happened is counterproductive and asinine. if it had been favors leaving for big $$$ and he stepped his game up with a MUCH better cast than we have, y'all would be whining about the same thing.

    pull up your slip-on diaper and get over it already.
    I guess we can just stop writing and reading history books and forget the past. God forbid we learn anything from our past mistakes.

    Your life must be really simple. When you get a ticket passing the local speed trap, just keep speeding past it next time too. What's the value of learning from mistakes right?

  4. #19
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    Jul 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipurmunki View Post
    let's try looking forward, instead of backward. crying about letting so-and-so go, we would be sooooo good if only blah-blah-blah had happened is counterproductive and asinine. if it had been favors leaving for big $$$ and he stepped his game up with a MUCH better cast than we have, y'all would be whining about the same thing.

    pull up your slip-on diaper and get over it already.
    Kinda hilarious that 3 of the starting 5 in that "MUCH better line up" came directly from our own team......let that sink in for a second. The management simply looked at the measurables of our two power forwards at the time and completely neglected the intangibles and non quantifiable aspects of the players. They just said "Favors is taller and longer so he has to be better" or "we traded the best PG on the planet for this guy so we have to sell him as the better player or we look stupid". Either way they screwed up and hopefully learned from that.

    And I wear Oops I Crapped My Pants, not Pampers pull ups.

  5. #20
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    Jul 2010
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    I am not going to defend the Jazz because like every other team in the NBA they have made mistakes, but you guys are acting like we gave up on Karl Malone here. First off if you remember Millsaps last year we offered him the most we could before the year started. He figured he could get more and he was right. However he also had down year(which happens to everyone), and he really soured on the Jazz. Yes it was probably Favors pushing him, but he was still averaging around his normal minutes. I don't remember 100%, but he said himself that not accepting the contract before the year started and playing for a contract really bothered him. The Jazz did reach out to paul to start free agency, but it was never known if a contract was offered. The Jazz also realized that keeping paul would have meant being forever .500 and wanted to make a move to possibly get better. It hasn't worked out yet, but This team has a much higher ceiling then the old Jefferson/Millsap teams ever did.

  6. #21
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    Also if the Jazz can ever figure out their last game issues(its actually mostly defense. Our offense isn't that bad) we will be a really good team. we were around 11-22 this year this in close games. if thats .500(what you would expect from a team that is around a .500 team) we would be 45-37 or 46-36. The Jazz had a higher point differential then 6 teams in the playoffs, and we were top five in missed games by vorp(basically the quality of the player that missed instead of just a number) and that number doesn't even include exum who would not have contributed to that number.

  7. #22
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    Look, I'm not trying to turn back time. Millsap left because we didn't value him. That happens. It was a poor decision because he's been a better player in Atlanta than Favors might ever be for us. Those type personnel decisions happen. They are part of the game.

    As we move forward, I want us to all realize that we do have a promising roster. We do have potential. But we also lack necessary pieces to contend for anything more than the 2nd round. Hayward is a good player, but he's not a shooter. Exum will be a good player, but probably not a shooter. Favors is a good player, but not a shooter. Gobert is a good player, but he's poor at offense.

    Hood is the only shooter on our team. That's it. The entire roster has one shooter. There is no way in hell that we can win like that. Now I understand that Lyles might turn into a decent stretch 4. And even Exum might develop a decent spot up 3. But if we don't get more shooters, we have no chance. The contenders have 4, 5, 6 or more shooters. We can't win jack with a streaky Hood and guys like Hayward and Exum.

    And that's not even mentioning our lack of a go to guy down the stretch. If you think Exum is going to solve all of these issues, you're out of your mind.

  8. #23
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lo Porto View Post

    Hood is the only shooter on our team. That's it. The entire roster has one shooter. There is no way in hell that we can win like that. Now I understand that Lyles might turn into a decent stretch 4. And even Exum might develop a decent spot up 3. But if we don't get more shooters, we have no chance. The contenders have 4, 5, 6 or more shooters. We can't win jack with a streaky Hood and guys like Hayward and Exum.
    That is actually why I started to change my mind and now prefer Ingram to Simmons. While we're unlikely to be in a position to get either guy, and while they are both likely to be superstars, Ingram is already ice cold with his jumper, and at 6'10" with a 7'4" wingspan, he can get it off over anyone.

  9. #24
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    Jun 2007
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    Roster wise, our biggest issues in no particular order are lack of depth, lack of shooting, and lack of a true, number one, superstar. If we draft smart, we could address two of those issues. I kind of have the feeling that this won't be the typical, stand-pat, Jazz summer, just the vibe I got from management at the end of the season.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaBoomer View Post
    Roster wise, our biggest issues in no particular order are lack of depth, lack of shooting, and lack of a true, number one, superstar. If we draft smart, we could address two of those issues. I kind of have the feeling that this won't be the typical, stand-pat, Jazz summer, just the vibe I got from management at the end of the season.
    I agree. Those are our 3 biggest weaknesses. Star, depth and shooting.

    I vote Simmons because his comprehensive skill set would make everybody better. His total game ability would be game changing. Everybody would get easier looks. And overall, I think he will be able to shoot the 3 as well as Hayward at 35-37%.

    PG Exum, Mack
    SG Hood, Burks
    SF Simmons, Hood
    PF Lyles, Simmons
    C Gobert, Lyles in small lineup

    Our major area of need would be depth shooters. But our starting lineup would feature one more shooter and ball handler than Favors offers us. We would be athletic and long. We would be a mismatch nightmare.

  11. #26
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    May 2014
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    A few guys have said we should keep Withey. Please NO. We have to do better than Withey, especially with Tibor on the roster. Let me give you an example. The Celtics overpaid Amir Johnson on a short term deal to add depth. Yeah they paid him 24 million over 2 years but he solved a depth problem without hurting their ability to retain key players in the future. Smart move we should have done. We need real depth, not another discount player. Who cares if we spend the Billionaire Millers available cap space on a short term contract. It's not like we are stealing from your personal stash. We need to let Withey go, sign a backup center for real depth, and let Pleiss be the 3rd option. Yes Favors could be the 2nd option at times but often he was resting while we player Booker and Lyles together. Let's learn from this mistake. We can't go into another season with 2 bad options at backup center again.

    Possible back up centers Jefferson, Noah, Pachulia, Mahinmi, Zeller, Nene, Mozgov, Montejunas or Speights. These are guys that may accept a short term deal if they were overpaid. I strongly prefer to add a defensive veteran center to pair with Lyles. Noah, Pachulia, Mahinmi or Mozgov would fit.

  12. #27
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    I hate to burst your bubble on Ben Simmons but I just don't see how we pull it off. Yeah it would be great but let's think about what it would take. There is no way Dennis will trade both Favors and Hayward for an unproven rookie. Boston is by far the team most likely to trade this pick. The Celtics would have to first get a little lucky and end up with a top 2 pick. If Boston ends up with the #2 pick we need the #1 pick to go for Ingram. Then we need Boston to want Favors. We can't trade Hayward and have Simmons, Favors, and Lyles all at the same position. They need a player like Favors so it's not a huge stretch, but they would have to like Favors over Simmons. We would also need Boston to like Favors more than the other trade options they get. Possibly players like Love or Cousins. Good luck. From a Jazz only perspective this trade sets us back a few years. A surprising move for a team "near the end of the rebuild". There would be some fan backlash for taking a step backwards. Be honest the stars would have to align for this one.

    What am I not seeing? Do you see another way?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    I hate to burst your bubble on Ben Simmons but I just don't see how we pull it off. Yeah it would be great but let's think about what it would take. There is no way Dennis will trade both Favors and Hayward for an unproven rookie. Boston is by far the team most likely to trade this pick. The Celtics would have to first get a little lucky and end up with a top 2 pick. If Boston ends up with the #2 pick we need the #1 pick to go for Ingram. Then we need Boston to want Favors. We can't trade Hayward and have Simmons, Favors, and Lyles all at the same position. They need a player like Favors so it's not a huge stretch, but they would have to like Favors over Simmons. We would also need Boston to like Favors more than the other trade options they get. Possibly players like Love or Cousins. Good luck. From a Jazz only perspective this trade sets us back a few years. A surprising move for a team "near the end of the rebuild". There would be some fan backlash for taking a step backwards. Be honest the stars would have to align for this one.

    What am I not seeing? Do you see another way?
    You are making some good points. You have very valid views/concerns. Here is what I see:

    Boston has the NJ pick which is #3. The chance of it landing inside the top 2 is something like 40%. Probability doesn't matter to me. Believe it or not, I could be "okay" with staying put. We would be better, but I just don't believe we can do much damage with the current roster.

    If Boston does land in the top 2 (which very possible), we come at them with a strong offer. Boston has a good roster but they aren't contenders quite yet. However, they have bigs, a very good attacking PG, and depth. And it's known they like Hayward. And we know that Hayward has the ability to walk after next year. Yes, our best trade chip could walk next summer. I like Favors, but does he fit next to Gobert as well as Simmons or Lyles would - regardless of how much anybody loves the guy, the answer is no. Gobert is the unicorn on our team not Favors.

    For a majority of 2015-16, we had piss poor PG, Hood, Hayward, Favors, Gobert and crap depth until Lyles emerged the last 3rd of the season. Without Hayward and Favors, we are projected to have Exum, Burks, Hood, Lyles and Gobert. One could argue that we might have better spacing and potential with that lineup. And if Hayward could walk after next season should Exum or the team not develop fast enough to make a dent in the West, why would he stay if Boston offers him the world?

    So my trade scenarios bank on getting a star for Hayward and maybe even Favors also known as two guys who aren't absolutely as essential as much needed star power. So if Boston gets a top 2 pick, we offer Hayward, #12, the GS 2017 pick, the OKC 2018 pick and maybe even our 2018 pick. Why does Boston do it - Stevens loves Hayward and the Boston lineup has a hole for an allpurpose guy like Hayward. Yes, they might like a guy like Cousins or Love, but Hayward is easier to attain and Boston doesn't have to give up as much. And Boston is on the verge of being great. Hayward is a safer bet than a rookie. We do it without thinking twice. We would give up a late lottery and 3 other non-lottery picks and what could be an expiring contract for a potential superstar.

    If we have to give up Hayward and Favors for Simmons, I would do it. You don't contend in the NBA without a star. On top of that, I have already argued that our roster with a healthy Burks and more matured Lyles might even be better than Hayward and Favors. We would be deep with all of them, but without a star we're the Memphis Grizzlies. We'd be good enough to host some playoff games but never good enough to be actually relevant.
    Last edited by Lo Porto; 04-20-2016 at 04:53 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    A few guys have said we should keep Withey. Please NO. We have to do better than Withey, especially with Tibor on the roster. Let me give you an example. The Celtics overpaid Amir Johnson on a short term deal to add depth. Yeah they paid him 24 million over 2 years but he solved a depth problem without hurting their ability to retain key players in the future. Smart move we should have done. We need real depth, not another discount player. Who cares if we spend the Billionaire Millers available cap space on a short term contract. It's not like we are stealing from your personal stash. We need to let Withey go, sign a backup center for real depth, and let Pleiss be the 3rd option. Yes Favors could be the 2nd option at times but often he was resting while we player Booker and Lyles together. Let's learn from this mistake. We can't go into another season with 2 bad options at backup center again.

    Possible back up centers Jefferson, Noah, Pachulia, Mahinmi, Zeller, Nene, Mozgov, Montejunas or Speights. These are guys that may accept a short term deal if they were overpaid. I strongly prefer to add a defensive veteran center to pair with Lyles. Noah, Pachulia, Mahinmi or Mozgov would fit.
    I don't think anyone said anything about not signing an additional player. Withey's contract is is slightly more than a million next year. So we don't have to get rid of him to be able to afford another player. He was very efficient in the limited minutes he got. His blocked shot percentage rate was in the top 10 of the NBA. Worst case scenario he is protection against injury or a bit we can throw out there to give some fouls.

    So I would all be for signing someone like Jefferson, Noah, Gasol, Montejunas, etc. But Withey is dirt cheap, a pretty descent player, and an expiring contract to boot. So just no reason to let him walk unless we need his roster spot for someone else.

  15. #30
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    Jul 2010
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    I honestly believe our chances of trading into the top 2 are about hte same as just winning it outright.

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