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  1. #1516
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    I hate it. Middleton is a much better player than snell. And trading him for a bunch of mid level picks does us know good. Sure we have 4 1st, but they are all mediocre picks and are far from a sure thing to even turn into decent players.

    Look around the league. You need top tier players to succeed in the NBA. You don't need 10 decent players. Trading Middleton for a glut of late draft picks makes us a deeper team with a mediocre at best starting lineup. We shouldn't be trading one guy for multiple guys (unless it's a salary dump), we should be in the market of trading multiple guys for one guy. We need to improve the top level talent on the roster, not sacrifice our 2nd best player to get guys that can maybe be our 4th, 5th, 8th and 9th best players.

  2. #1517
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    Yeah quality over quantity. Also I didn't even count how many players after that trade. Probably be beyond roster limit. But if Ferguson was there at #15 and eventually be as good as Middleton if not better. It be tempting. Figure the way Hammond was talking up Snell. Snell is the poor man's Middleton. Just that Snell doesn't have the play making ability like Middleton. But Middleton also shy away from taking more threes and took more contested deep two's instead.

  3. #1518
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    I got to thinking though. Even say for a second we tried to go after a decent player. Your route of quality over quantity. We really don't have much quantity to part with to land a star. Unless of course your trading Maker and Brogdon. I'd hate to part with them just yet. Middleton is coming back from injury. Also was rushed back, and was excellent that one month. He went all gang busters. Then fizzed out rest of the season. Also went unnoticed in the playoffs other then that one game.

    Parker got injured. Second ACL tear. Hard to say if he comes back just as good but could get injured again. We get him back in February. But all in all we have no decent trade chips to part with beyond Middleton, Maker, Brogdon. Parker has no value being injured or negative value. Yeah we could trade #17 for a player. But we don't really have much capspace to eat a player let alone #17 doesn't hold much value. Also dead weight money in Delly, Telly, Henson. Besides Sanders being stretched provision a season or so yet.

    Moose could bolt. Hawes may as well. Beasley may bolt for more then we can afford. Our offseason very well may be extend Snell and Jet. Besides our draft picks. Bit dull. Middleton has to comeback like I said previous seasons that he was top 5 or 6 SG in the east. He may have lost a spot or so and regressed a bit being rushed back and out of shape then had one good month then was gassed and sea legs. All in all the injury to Parker ****ed this franchise up a bit.

    Well also the Middleton missing entire first half of the season didn't help. Yeah it may have given more minutes and experience to other in the mean time. But man we never really got to see our big 3 in action together for long. Yeah the one year Parker was healthy and we sign Moose we missed the playoffs. I kinda wanna forget all about that season.

    Like that one article mentioned seems every time Bucks make the playoffs. Following season they regress and miss following seasons playoffs.

  4. #1519
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    Snell a poor man's Middleton and saying he just isn't the playmaker is blasphemous and disrespectful to Middleton. He tore his hamstring off the bone and came back early to help the team. No way his conditioning was near ready. And he regressed a bit...no! You don't say! Middleton is easily the second best player and once he's healthy will be able to drive and have more burst than he showed upon his return. He's a better defender, passer and decent off dribble. Snell is none of that. I'd rather just sign and trade Snell try and give away scrubs for second rounders and try and lure a star to play with Giannis. If Middleton was the third best player on this team it's a contender.

  5. #1520
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    I think you're vastly overrating draft picks Miller. Odds are ferguson comes no where near the player Middleton is. Realistically, ferguson becoming what snell did last year would be good.

    It's easy to look at the upside of guys in the draft and hope they all become the very best version of themselves. If you look back at the history of the 15th pick, which is the main pick we get for Middleton, you have two huge hits in Giannis and kawhi. But then it's a bunch of decent to bad players. The odds of getting a Giannis are super slim. The odds of getting a moe harkless are much higher.

    And ferguson himself is super exciting since he's such an elite athlete. But he's far from a finished product. He is primarily a shooter and defender. He doesn't have much handle in his game. He has limited experience. And there's lots of guys who they say are great shooters (rashad Vaughn for instance) who never turn out to be incredible shooters. Honestly, he probably is much more likely to be Gerald green than Middleton. And the guys we draft later probably have even less of a chance at being more than rotational guys. I'm fine drafting ferguson, but I'm not fine trading Middleton to get him.

    Middleton is a really good player who fits with Giannis well. He's still young enough that he fits the age timeframe of Giannis. Trading him for a bunch of late draft picks that are unlikely to turn into elite players is not a great idea.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 05-19-2017 at 08:20 PM.

  6. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I think you're vastly overrating draft picks Miller. Odds are ferguson comes no where near the player Middleton is. Realistically, ferguson becoming what snell did last year would be good.

    It's easy to look at the upside of guys in the draft and hope they all become the very best version of themselves. If you look back at the history of the 15th pick, which is the main pick we get for Middleton, you have two huge hits in Giannis and kawhi. But then it's a bunch of decent to bad players. The odds of getting a Giannis are super slim. The odds of getting a moe harkless are much higher.

    And ferguson himself is super exciting since he's such an elite athlete. But he's far from a finished product. He is primarily a shooter and defender. He doesn't have much handle in his game. He has limited experience. And there's lots of guys who they say are great shooters (rashad Vaughn for instance) who never turn out to be incredible shooters. Honestly, he probably is much more likely to be Gerald green than Middleton. And the guys we draft later probably have even less of a chance at being more than rotational guys. I'm fine drafting ferguson, but I'm not fine trading Middleton to get him.

    Middleton is a really good player who fits with Giannis well. He's still young enough that he fits the age timeframe of Giannis. Trading him for a bunch of late draft picks that are unlikely to turn into elite players is not a great idea.
    Agree crewfan. Ferguson much more comparable to Snell. People take for granted what a good player Middleton is and also what a odd but great thing that he is on a good contract which seemingly is never the case for the Bucks.

  7. #1522
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    Agree crewfan. Ferguson much more comparable to Snell. People take for granted what a good player Middleton is and also what a odd but great thing that he is on a good contract which seemingly is never the case for the Bucks.
    Middleton only has two more years left on his deal. $14.1M and $13M. Cause he opts out of final year. Also who's to say Middleton has fully recovered and can guard SG's any more to bench Snell once Parker gets back? Parker more less SF. Parker could play PF but isn't the greatest rebounder or defender. Since Giannis best suited at PF. Well Giannis could play SF but then that shifts everyone down a notch.

    That's if we wanted Maker at PF as a stretch 4 if we land a decent center yet if we go that route. Also Middleton only had that one good season averaging 18.2 PPG which we missed the playoffs. Other wise averaging 12 or 13 only. I know we played better with Middleton over Parker and had that hot streak of one month. The Middleton/Parker injuries screwed this franchise up. Its kinda hard to evaluate them now. Hard to say if they can stay fully healthy here on out. Also ya need to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

    Heck look back with Redd. After his first major injury we had a chance to trade him for Mo Williams and Boozer. We said no and Redd got hurt again like same season on his super max and we were stuck with him injured forever. I don't wanna go through injured players holding our cap hostage. Redd and Bogut was enough for a decade. Parker came back even better after first ACL injury. More high flying dunks. Can he do it again? But can he stay healthy?

    Can Middleton stay healthy? Can Middleton still cover fast SG's? Or is that Snell's job while Middleton relegated to SF or small ball PF? Will you like Middleton and Parker each making $23M each and climbing with injury history? Its a big risk. Also the proposed trade of them draft picks may very well never pan out either. Draft is a crapshoot. But we cant afford to waste Giannis years with guys constantly getting injured. Hopefully Brogdon and Maker can step it up another notch this season. Snell will have to take a couple more threes a game as well.

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  9. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILLERHIGHLIFE View Post
    Middleton only has two more years left on his deal. $14.1M and $13M. Cause he opts out of final year. Also who's to say Middleton has fully recovered and can guard SG's any more to bench Snell once Parker gets back? Parker more less SF. Parker could play PF but isn't the greatest rebounder or defender. Since Giannis best suited at PF. Well Giannis could play SF but then that shifts everyone down a notch.

    That's if we wanted Maker at PF as a stretch 4 if we land a decent center yet if we go that route. Also Middleton only had that one good season averaging 18.2 PPG which we missed the playoffs. Other wise averaging 12 or 13 only. I know we played better with Middleton over Parker and had that hot streak of one month. The Middleton/Parker injuries screwed this franchise up. Its kinda hard to evaluate them now. Hard to say if they can stay fully healthy here on out. Also ya need to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

    Heck look back with Redd. After his first major injury we had a chance to trade him for Mo Williams and Boozer. We said no and Redd got hurt again like same season on his super max and we were stuck with him injured forever. I don't wanna go through injured players holding our cap hostage. Redd and Bogut was enough for a decade. Parker came back even better after first ACL injury. More high flying dunks. Can he do it again? But can he stay healthy?

    Can Middleton stay healthy? Can Middleton still cover fast SG's? Or is that Snell's job while Middleton relegated to SF or small ball PF? Will you like Middleton and Parker each making $23M each and climbing with injury history? Its a big risk. Also the proposed trade of them draft picks may very well never pan out either. Draft is a crapshoot. But we cant afford to waste Giannis years with guys constantly getting injured. Hopefully Brogdon and Maker can step it up another notch this season. Snell will have to take a couple more threes a game as well.
    I can say with near certainty that if Jabari is going to get the max he'll be gone. Bucks aren't going to pay him 23. Middleton can shoot at a high clip and his game will likely age better. Jabari was built on explosiveness etc where Middleton is more a under the rim player. I don't know if either will be here long-term to be honest but I would say Middleton has a better shot. I wouldn't be against packaging Middleton and picks but to get a star like Dame or someone in return. No way just for mid-first picks.

  10. #1525
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    Well Giannis starts out at $22.4M this up coming season for being drafted at #15. Yeah we could low ball Parker saying two ACL injuries. We could nickel and dime him like the Warriors did early on when Curry had glass ankles. That be our only hope. But Gery Woelfel on the radio a month or so back suggested we wont ruffle any feathers and more less still give out the max to Parker.

    Also remember we have the 5 year deal lined up. Since we gave Giannis only 4 year deal which was stupid on our part and also gave him the early extension which I believe removed a rookie year salary if I'm not mistaken. Also with Parker being #2 pick his pay scale could be a bit higher not 100% positive though.

    I was checking hoopshype salaries. If Middleton opts out sooner then final year. He could fetch the 5 year max or same time as Parker. I believe only one guy can have it per offseason.

    http://hoopshype.com/salaries/milwaukee_bucks/

    Middleton and Parker both due at same time in 2019/20 summer. Both culd get the 5 year deal though. That's if Middleton picks up his player option and stays that final year we all predict he opts out. Cause both cant have the 5 year deal same off season. Unless they changed that rule in new CBA.

  11. #1526
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    http://behindthebuckpass.com/2017/05...guard-scoring/

    Good read. Bucks PG's only scored 20 or more twice this season.

  12. #1527
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    If you label middleton as more of a forward than a guard, then our guards this season were delly, Brogdon, Vaughn, snell and terry. Delly and terry never scored 20 in the regular season. Brogdon scored 20 twice. Snell scored 20 three times and Vaughn did once. So our guards combined to score 20 or more points 6 times for the season.

  13. #1528
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    If you label middleton as more of a forward than a guard, then our guards this season were delly, Brogdon, Vaughn, snell and terry. Delly and terry never scored 20 in the regular season. Brogdon scored 20 twice. Snell scored 20 three times and Vaughn did once. So our guards combined to score 20 or more points 6 times for the season.
    Article was PG's. Delly and Brogdon.

  14. #1529
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    The Portland trade couldn't work anyhow. Portland's cap is like $138 Mil, so they can't add any contracts, plus I agree that Middleton is better than those picks. If there was a top 7 pick in the bunch, then it would be worth discussing.

    Possible draft trade idea's. Not sure if we would be interested or if the the trade partner would be interested, but thought I'd throw them out for discussion.

    #1 Milwaukee trades pick 17 and RFA Tony Snell to Minnesota for pick 7. We're able to draft a starting PG, either Dennis Smith or Ntilikina or what ever his name is, maybe even Fox. Minnesota needs bench help, defense, more veterans. They have the cap space.

    #2 Milwaukee sends pick 17 to Brooklyn for picks 22 and 27. I just read this elsewhere tonite, but I thought of it when this website wasn't working. We have our eyes on projects as usual in this draft. That Dailio kid from Kentucky that didn't play for one. We could get him and maybe Bam, Swanigan or Evans maybe. So many possibilities. We could include 48 in the trade as well if needed.

    These are just a couple thoughts. I don't have my heart set on either trade, but also wouldn't mind either.trade

  15. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILLERHIGHLIFE View Post
    Article was PG's. Delly and Brogdon.
    I know, I was adding to the article, since our guard scoring issue wasn't just a PG thing, it's all of our guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawButch View Post
    The Portland trade couldn't work anyhow. Portland's cap is like $138 Mil, so they can't add any contracts, plus I agree that Middleton is better than those picks. If there was a top 7 pick in the bunch, then it would be worth discussing.

    Possible draft trade idea's. Not sure if we would be interested or if the the trade partner would be interested, but thought I'd throw them out for discussion.

    #1 Milwaukee trades pick 17 and RFA Tony Snell to Minnesota for pick 7. We're able to draft a starting PG, either Dennis Smith or Ntilikina or what ever his name is, maybe even Fox. Minnesota needs bench help, defense, more veterans. They have the cap space.

    #2 Milwaukee sends pick 17 to Brooklyn for picks 22 and 27. I just read this elsewhere tonite, but I thought of it when this website wasn't working. We have our eyes on projects as usual in this draft. That Dailio kid from Kentucky that didn't play for one. We could get him and maybe Bam, Swanigan or Evans maybe. So many possibilities. We could include 48 in the trade as well if needed.

    These are just a couple thoughts. I don't have my heart set on either trade, but also wouldn't mind either.trade
    I can't imagine Minnesota says yes to that deal, but I'd love it. This draft sort of hits it's first major drop in talent in the 10 or so range, so I can't imagine they'd want to drop that far just to add snell. Especially since they could add a versatile pf like markkanen, who could be a very good fit with towns.

    Depending on who's left at 17, I'd be okay moving down a few spots like the Brooklyn deal. But I'd have to guess that if they are moving up for a guy, it would be because there's one dude who's clearly above the rest available at 17. In which case, we might as well just take that guy.

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