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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    And yet you can say with the utmost confidence that life exists somewhere other than earth... despite have any proof. Sounds like faith.
    I do not assert with the utmost confidence that life exists somewhere other than earth, I'm saying it's an overwhelming mathematical probability life likely exists somewhere other than earth.

    Certainly not faith.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    You only assume it's ignorant because you disagree with it...

    You have no idea what I've studied.
    I do know you haven't studied more than a fraction of the Universe, because no person has. So it's not an assumption because I disagree with it, it's a fact.
    And yet you can say with the utmost confidence that life exists somewhere other than earth... despite have any proof. Sounds like faith.

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  3. #243
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    I guess I missed it, but what does life on another planet have anything to do with religion or God?

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I guess I missed it, but what does life on another planet have anything to do with religion or God?
    It would greatly shake up our understanding of humanity's place in the universe. Religions are inherently geocentric. It has always had to adapt to scientific understanding, but life, especially human-like life, is thought by many to be the one that some religions couldn't adapt to. As far as I'm aware, few major religious texts allude to their deity creating life elsewhere, or even the existences of other planets/life. Religious people have always done a good-enough (I guess) job of changing how to interpret their texts to keep up with the times, but this would be an unprecedented development.

    But even more than that, life elsewhere would show that maybe we aren't that unique. Maybe we aren't that special. Those two things are what have always fueled religious belief. I think it would change how a lot of people feel about their place in this universe, let alone world.

    It depends on the religion. Jews believe that God sees no limits to his power and they also don't proselytize. I could see some adaptation there, and them not worrying or even caring what beliefs, religions, knowledge, etc. said ETs possess.

    Creationists, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. would have some 'splaining to do.

    Muslims could easily adapt. I believe the Qur'an, especially since it's more modern, acknowledges the universe and says that all beings in it serve Allah.

    Catholicism? Other forms of Christianity? IDK.

    But yeah, I think it's more about the huge change in perspective. I think religion would survive, but I'd imagine we'd continue to see more and more defectors. Religion has always clashed with science, and has never gone away. This would be tougher to be compatible with than even evolution, but if there's a will there's a way.
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    It would greatly shake up our understanding of humanity's place in the universe. Religions are inherently geocentric. It has always had to adapt to scientific understanding, but life, especially human-like life, is thought by many to be the one that some religions couldn't adapt to. As far as I'm aware, few major religious texts allude to their deity creating life elsewhere, or even the existences of other planets/life. Religious people have always done a good-enough (I guess) job of changing how to interpret their texts to keep up with the times, but this would be an unprecedented development.

    But even more than that, life elsewhere would show that maybe we aren't that unique. Maybe we aren't that special. Those two things are what have always fueled religious belief. I think it would change how a lot of people feel about their place in this universe, let alone world.

    It depends on the religion. Jews believe that God sees no limits to his power and they also don't proselytize. I could see some adaptation there, and them not worrying or even caring what beliefs, religions, knowledge, etc. said ETs possess.

    Creationists, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. would have some 'splaining to do.

    Muslims could easily adapt. I believe the Qur'an, especially since it's more modern, acknowledges the universe and says that all beings in it serve Allah.

    Catholicism? Other forms of Christianity? IDK.

    But yeah, I think it's more about the huge change in perspective. I think religion would survive, but I'd imagine we'd continue to see more and more defectors. Religion has always clashed with science, and has never gone away. This would be tougher to be compatible with than even evolution, but if there's a will there's a way.
    Some of the "nuttier" (I put in quotes because I do not believe any religious beliefs truly held are any more or less believable) religions could even benefit. The Mormons and the Scientologists have even enshrined interstellar stuff into their religion.

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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    It would greatly shake up our understanding of humanity's place in the universe. Religions are inherently geocentric. It has always had to adapt to scientific understanding, but life, especially human-like life, is thought by many to be the one that some religions couldn't adapt to. As far as I'm aware, few major religious texts allude to their deity creating life elsewhere, or even the existences of other planets/life. Religious people have always done a good-enough (I guess) job of changing how to interpret their texts to keep up with the times, but this would be an unprecedented development.

    But even more than that, life elsewhere would show that maybe we aren't that unique. Maybe we aren't that special. Those two things are what have always fueled religious belief. I think it would change how a lot of people feel about their place in this universe, let alone world.

    It depends on the religion. Jews believe that God sees no limits to his power and they also don't proselytize. I could see some adaptation there, and them not worrying or even caring what beliefs, religions, knowledge, etc. said ETs possess.

    Creationists, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. would have some 'splaining to do.

    Muslims could easily adapt. I believe the Qur'an, especially since it's more modern, acknowledges the universe and says that all beings in it serve Allah.

    Catholicism? Other forms of Christianity? IDK.

    But yeah, I think it's more about the huge change in perspective. I think religion would survive, but I'd imagine we'd continue to see more and more defectors. Religion has always clashed with science, and has never gone away. This would be tougher to be compatible with than even evolution, but if there's a will there's a way.
    Hmm, it's def not an issue in Islam, if anything the Quran does mention other seen life (meaning not angels or Devils, which are considered unseen) in the universe. It mentions life being both compiled on this planet as well as being spread through the heavens.

    Regardless, I don't see why geocentricity would oppose alien life. Nor do I see why thinking humans are special or unique would oppose it either. Even if we found aliens tomorrow, my world view would still be very geocentric and also would still feel every bit as special and unique. Same way finding a new species of fish in the deep ocean wouldn't shake any of those concepts I have about myself.

    I don't really see science clashing with religion at all. Any off the wall story I believed in my religion (like a virgin birth) I was well aware of how off the wall it sounds without needing any science behind it, lol
    Last edited by nastynice; 03-16-2017 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #247
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    Imagine if we did find intelligent life out there and we then had to explain to them that there is a God who made them and everything else in the universe, but we and not them were created in his image.

    How ego-centric would we look lol?

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I do not assert with the utmost confidence that life exists somewhere other than earth, I'm saying it's an overwhelming mathematical probability life likely exists somewhere other than earth.

    Certainly not faith.
    There is no existing mathematical probability that says life exists outside of earth. We do know of various forms of life within our solar system, but I assume you mean sentient life (however defined). FWIW I believe there is sentient life outside of earth, but it is just that - a belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    It depends on the religion. Jews believe that God sees no limits to his power and they also don't proselytize. I could see some adaptation there, and them not worrying or even caring what beliefs, religions, knowledge, etc. said ETs possess.

    Creationists, Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. would have some 'splaining to do.
    Jews and Christians worship the same God, they just have different understandings of that God. I have no idea what distinction you're trying to make here on proselytization but any problems one sect would have with "explaining" alien life would exist within the other. I also don't really know about about the accuracy your assertion that Jews believe in God's unlimited power considering the strength of prophecy in Judaism (and Christianity).


    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    But yeah, I think it's more about the huge change in perspective. I think religion would survive, but I'd imagine we'd continue to see more and more defectors. Religion has always clashed with science, and has never gone away. This would be tougher to be compatible with than even evolution, but if there's a will there's a way.
    Totally wrong. Religion has held the candle of "science" at many points in time and in many parts of the world. Religion, historically, has done far more to advance and preserve education than atheism or any other "brotherhood" organizations.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    There is no existing mathematical probability that says life exists outside of earth. We do know of various forms of life within our solar system, but I assume you mean sentient life (however defined). FWIW I believe there is sentient life outside of earth, but it is just that - a belief.

    Jews and Christians worship the same God, they just have different understandings of that God. I have no idea what distinction you're trying to make here on proselytization but any problems one sect would have with "explaining" alien life would exist within the other. I also don't really know about about the accuracy your assertion that Jews believe in God's unlimited power considering the strength of prophecy in Judaism (and Christianity).

    Totally wrong. Religion has held the candle of "science" at many points in time and in many parts of the world. Religion, historically, has done far more to advance and preserve education than atheism or any other "brotherhood" organizations.
    Of course not, and I never said there was (or if I did I misspoke). The mathematically probability of life existing outside earth, no matter how strong, certainly can't say there is life outside earth anymore than mathematical probability cant say a coin flipped 10 times won't land on heads every time, no matter the odds. All it does is measure the probability, it makes no claim to certainty.

    I agree that Religion is underaapreciated when it comes to their contributions to science and human advancement, but I would say it's a little unfair to directly compare their contributions with that of say atheists when for much of history atheists were killed simply for being atheists.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Imagine if we did find intelligent life out there and we then had to explain to them that there is a God who made them and everything else in the universe, but we and not them were created in his image.

    How ego-centric would we look lol?
    This entire premise just doesn't make sense to me. Do we not already have to explain the same thing to the birds? Are they not intelligent life? I see entire communities, working in harmony, entire social structures, means of communication both verbally and non verbally (have you ever seen a flock of 100+ birds turn at the same exact milisecond? its quite amazing), family structures, etc etc. How much more of intelligent life are we to find somewhere else? We have plenty of intelligent life right here which are subject to the same arguments you're putting forth for alien life. Why would me finding a bird in my backyard vs mars have such differing effects on how it affects my religious perspective?

    I don't know, I see just absolutely zero connection between finding alien life and creating an argument against the existence of god. I know some people do see a connection, be it on one side of the argument OR the other, so I certainly get why you're saying what you're saying in that context. But I just don't see it.
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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    There is no existing mathematical probability that says life exists outside of earth. We do know of various forms of life within our solar system, but I assume you mean sentient life (however defined). FWIW I believe there is sentient life outside of earth, but it is just that - a belief.



    Jews and Christians worship the same God, they just have different understandings of that God. I have no idea what distinction you're trying to make here on proselytization but any problems one sect would have with "explaining" alien life would exist within the other. I also don't really know about about the accuracy your assertion that Jews believe in God's unlimited power considering the strength of prophecy in Judaism (and Christianity).




    Totally wrong. Religion has held the candle of "science" at many points in time and in many parts of the world. Religion, historically, has done far more to advance and preserve education than atheism or any other "brotherhood" organizations.
    Probability is more than belief or faith. It's actual evidence on which to place belief.

    This bolded is misleading. Religious folks throughout history especially if you include the muslims and the eastern religions did much to preserve knowledge and advance science. But... Historically mans knowledge was very limited. Recently knowledge has grown exponentially largely due to secular organizations filled with atheists and agnostics. The amount of output at one research university is greater than anything Saint Thomas Aquinas or the like did by preserving or advancing knowledge. So to say they have done far more is just... well wrong when you consider that the majority of man's knowledge has been made in the last 75-100 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
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  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Jews and Christians worship the same God, they just have different understandings of that God. I have no idea what distinction you're trying to make here on proselytization but any problems one sect would have with "explaining" alien life would exist within the other. I also don't really know about about the accuracy your assertion that Jews believe in God's unlimited power considering the strength of prophecy in Judaism (and Christianity).
    Jews don't proselytize. They're less concerned with what others think than other religions. My point was -- and admittedly it wasn't very clear and perhaps unimportant -- that if we discovered alien life and said alien life had their own religion/creation story/science/whatever, Jews probably would just keep on keeping on and not worry about it.

    I've always been under the impression that God's sheer omnipotence was perceived as slightly greater in Judaism than Christianity as a whole. I may be wrong.

    Totally wrong. Religion has held the candle of "science" at many points in time and in many parts of the world. Religion, historically, has done far more to advance and preserve education than atheism or any other "brotherhood" organizations.
    I literally have no idea what you're trying to say or what type of shot at me you're trying to make with the second sentence here.

    Science in quotes? Speak on that.
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  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    This entire premise just doesn't make sense to me. Do we not already have to explain the same thing to the birds? Are they not intelligent life? I see entire communities, working in harmony, entire social structures, means of communication both verbally and non verbally (have you ever seen a flock of 100+ birds turn at the same exact milisecond? its quite amazing), family structures, etc etc. How much more of intelligent life are we to find somewhere else? We have plenty of intelligent life right here which are subject to the same arguments you're putting forth for alien life. Why would me finding a bird in my backyard vs mars have such differing effects on how it affects my religious perspective?

    I don't know, I see just absolutely zero connection between finding alien life and creating an argument against the existence of god. I know some people do see a connection, be it on one side of the argument OR the other, so I certainly get why you're saying what you're saying in that context. But I just don't see it.
    I was thinking more like intelligent aliens land on our planet. Imagine if they were vastly superior technologically than us. In the same way you use the bird as a reference point, imagine if a parrot tried to convince you parrots were actually in God's image. Would you believe it (I used Parrots because they can actually talk lol)? Doubtful.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Probability is more than belief or faith. It's actual evidence on which to place belief.

    This bolded is misleading. Religious folks throughout history especially if you include the muslims and the eastern religions did much to preserve knowledge and advance science. But... Historically mans knowledge was very limited. Recently knowledge has grown exponentially largely due to secular organizations filled with atheists and agnostics. The amount of output at one research university is greater than anything Saint Thomas Aquinas or the like did by preserving or advancing knowledge. So to say they have done far more is just... well wrong when you consider that the majority of man's knowledge has been made in the last 75-100 years.
    Once again there is no probability equation in existence that says sentient life exists outside of earth. If you think you have one then by all means post it here after you claim your Nobel prize. If you believe sentient life does exist outside of earth (as I do) then it is a matter of faith.

    And I'm not going to get into this pointless pissing match over what date in earth's history marks the beginning of the 'best' science. Religions all over the world have been stewards of knowledge, including science, for probably longer than we have recorded history. There is no way to prove what you assert and no way to disprove it - but acting like religion has been an enemy of knowledge for all time is a purely ignorant statement made by someone with an axe to grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Jews don't proselytize. They're less concerned with what others think than other religions. My point was -- and admittedly it wasn't very clear and perhaps unimportant -- that if we discovered alien life and said alien life had their own religion/creation story/science/whatever, Jews probably would just keep on keeping on and not worry about it.

    I've always been under the impression that God's sheer omnipotence was perceived as slightly greater in Judaism than Christianity as a whole. I may be wrong.



    I literally have no idea what you're trying to say or what type of shot at me you're trying to make with the second sentence here.

    Science in quotes? Speak on that.
    Jews maintain a racial component to their religion, which is probably why they don't proselytize like other religions - they only believe that certain people can be Jews based on being descended from Israelites.

    And again I don't really know what you're basing Jews believing in a "more omnipotent" God is based on but I'm willing to look at anything you've got. Jews believe they have a covenant with God which would inherently mean God is not omnipotent even if only by his own choosing - he chose to make an agreement with the people of Israel and remains bound to that.

    RE: final portion. I meant exactly what it said - very often in history religions have preserved knowledge, including what we understand as science today. More than any other organizations in history, including fraternal orders or whatever else, religion has preserved knowledge. It will likely be understood in the future that people who champion science today belong to a religion seeking to preserve the understanding of the world through the 5 senses (a very limited but uniquely human way of understanding reality). So the point was be careful where you cast aspersions - they may just get back to you.

    Science was in quotes because it was not always understood as we understand it today - and even today "science" is not what a lot of its internet champions think it is but rather is a method of looking at the world. There are hosts of questions that science does not seek to address and many of those questions are addressed by religion and philosophy (in addition to questions of science).

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Jews maintain a racial component to their religion, which is probably why they don't proselytize like other religions - they only believe that certain people can be Jews based on being descended from Israelites.
    Not true. While it does have a genetic component to it... even the ancient Jews proselytized. And it is completely possible to convert Judaism. The daughter of the President is a recent convert.

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