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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    784

    Greatest of all time

    I decided to do this list since Kobe is now retiring... I believe in kind of a tier system, where you can move guys up and down in their tier, but you look a little silly arguing them out of that tier...

    Mind you I'm not grading talent. I'm grading what they did. The problem with grading talent is that guys don't always play to their talent. If I was just figuring out who I was going to draft going IN TO the draft, or... grading their talent, it'd be hard to separate players like Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq, David Robinson, etc... I'm talking the only thing you really can talk, resumes.

    How I grade. Stats matter.. but only to the extent you can work them in to winning championships. I call it the Dominique Wilkins rule. Nothing you do matters if it's not something that fits into the object of the game.

    There's also context in terms of winning rings. What was your role? What were you NOT asked to do. It's easy to get lost in Bill Russell's 11 championships.. which do make him great, but when you're comparing it to Jordan, you're talking about a guy who only needed to average 14 PPG on 44% FG.. Would he win 11 if you put him on a team where he wasn't matched perfectly with scorers who relied on his D and upon whose scoring he relied on?

    Do you count Kobe Bryant's rings with Shaq the same way you count a ring by Lebron, Michael or Kareem in 1980? No... Shaq might have won titles then with 10 different guys in the league as his second fiddle.

    Do Wilt's stats override Michael or Kareem when he only won two rings and failed miserably in the 69 and 70 Finals, when his team was a heavy favorite in both? No.

    1. Michael Jordan
    2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    2a. Magic Johnson
    2b. Bill Russell
    5. Larry Bird
    6. Tim Duncan
    6a. Shaquille O'neal
    6b. Lebron James (if he retired today)
    9. Wilt Chamberlain
    10. Kobe Bryant
    11. Hakeem Olajuwon
    12. Isiah Thomas
    13. Oscar Robertson
    14. Moses Malone
    15. Julius Erving
    16. Elgin Baylor
    17. Jerry West
    18. David Robinson
    19. John Havlicek
    20. Willis Reed
    21. Walt "Clyde" Frazier
    22. Steph Curry (if he retired today)
    23. Dirk Nowitzki
    24. Rick Barry
    25. Charles Barkley
    26. Bob Cousy
    27. Patrick Ewing
    28. Karl Malone
    29. Bill Walton
    30. Scottie Pippen

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Tuscaloosa,AL
    Posts
    786
    Where's Wade? By your standards I'd think a 3x champion with a dominant run would be above Isaiah not missing from the list

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    26
    pretty bad list. why do have lebrat and kobe ranked so high?

    I thought you said stats on losing teams don't matter. you're going against you rules.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    1,185
    Do you count Kobe's rings with Shaq the same way you count a ring by Lebron, Michael, or Kareem in 1980? No..Shaq might have won titles then with 10 different guys in the 2nd fiddle.

    You are joking, right?

    Of course Kobe's rings count the same. Do you know basketball?
    You could say the same thing for Kobe. You take Shaq out and there were at least a few guys that could have stepped in and had similar success alongside Kobe.
    Lebron had to exit Cleveland and fly down to Miami so he could team up with two perrenial allstars in Wade & Bosh to chase a ring. Otherwise, no titles.

    Ask Michael Jordan how many titles he'd have if it were not for Pippen/Jackson.

    Same goes for Magic/Jabbar, Duncan/Parker, etc.

    Kobe has 5 titles for a reason. And not a single ring was won by accident nor did any single player carry the load exclusively. Shaq and Kobe were an untoppable duo when on the same page and could have won even more rings then they did.

    If anyone 's title success should be down played its LeBron James...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    1,185
    That list is pitiful.

    Curry is great and all but to have him that high currently without even a mention of John Stockton, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Chris Paul...smh man.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    43,988
    Russell way too high.

    1. Played for the best Coach/GM of the time
    2. Played with the best team of the time - until 1966 and later they were a great offensive team that needed a big time defender.
    3. Until Wilt showed up there were only 3 players of his size in the NBA, he didn't dominate them offensively. Once Wilt and the other big centers showed up his offense was all passing (after Cousy quit) and 2' put backs, and he was always a cruddy FT shooter.

    How can the GOAT be a one way player? If he had been drafted by Detroit he would have won zero rings.

    I saw him play from '65 on. Hakeem to name just one was a vastly better player.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    16,318
    Steph Curry #22 if he retired today... this list is beyond atrocious.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    23,528
    If this is solely based on accomplishments couldn't we just make a standardized point system for accomplishments?

    25 points for MVP
    15 points for DPOY
    25 points for Title as Alpha
    15 points for Title as 2nd option
    10 points for all other Titles
    5 points for All-NBA 1st team / All-NBA Def. 1st team
    2 points for every other All-NBA team

    And simply add up the totals?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    new hampshire
    Posts
    9,828
    Decent list but I disagree with some parts of it:

    Steph Curry simply has not done enough to be on your list. In 10 years he will be there.

    Scottie Pippen is not a top 30 player of all time.

    Not sure Bill Walton belongs on the list either.

    Isaiah Thomas is too high.

    Not the worst list I have seen
    El Presidente

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    43,988
    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If this is solely based on accomplishments couldn't we just make a standardized point system for accomplishments?

    25 points for MVP
    15 points for DPOY
    25 points for Title as Alpha
    15 points for Title as 2nd option
    10 points for all other Titles
    5 points for All-NBA 1st team / All-NBA Def. 1st team
    2 points for every other All-NBA team

    And simply add up the totals?
    Too many of those are subjective.

    Still one is key. MVP Win Shares.

    1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
    2. LeBron James 7.006
    3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
    4. Larry Bird* 5.693
    5. Magic Johnson* 5.129
    6. Bill Russell* 4.827
    7. Shaquille O'Neal* 4.380
    8. Karl Malone* 4.296
    9. Tim Duncan 4.278
    10. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
    11. Kobe Bryant 4.206
    12. David Robinson* 3.123
    13. Kevin Durant 3.117
    14. Moses Malone* 2.873
    15. Kevin Garnett 2.753
    16. Bob Pettit* 2.628
    17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611
    18. Oscar Robertson* 2.479
    19. Charles Barkley* 2.438
    20. Steve Nash 2.429

    Nothing is perfect. Nash, Durant, Karl Malone, DRob, Russell, Bird - all too high IMO. Team success has a huge impact on Russell's vote. Success has a notable effect on other votes too.

    Still it's not a bad place to start.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    43,988
    wait! what?

    IT at #12 and no Garnett? That's ridiculous. Garnett was better than Erving, Havlicek, etc.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Jersey Shore
    Posts
    4,364
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Too many of those are subjective.

    Still one is key. MVP Win Shares.

    1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
    2. LeBron James 7.006
    3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
    4. Larry Bird* 5.693
    5. Magic Johnson* 5.129
    6. Bill Russell* 4.827
    7. Shaquille O'Neal* 4.380
    8. Karl Malone* 4.296
    9. Tim Duncan 4.278
    10. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
    11. Kobe Bryant 4.206
    12. David Robinson* 3.123
    13. Kevin Durant 3.117
    14. Moses Malone* 2.873
    15. Kevin Garnett 2.753
    16. Bob Pettit* 2.628
    17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611
    18. Oscar Robertson* 2.479
    19. Charles Barkley* 2.438
    20. Steve Nash 2.429

    Nothing is perfect. Nash, Durant, Karl Malone, DRob, Russell, Bird - all too high IMO. Team success has a huge impact on Russell's vote. Success has a notable effect on other votes too.

    Still it's not a bad place to start.
    during Russell's day, the players voted for the MVP... I don't know if that is better or worse than now, however, Players didn't seem to respect Wilt's game and Russell was viewed as the type of guy you wanna play with and a leader.


    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    43,988
    Quote Originally Posted by NJBASEBALL22 View Post
    during Russell's day, the players voted for the MVP... I don't know if that is better or worse than now, however, Players didn't seem to respect Wilt's game and Russell was viewed as the type of guy you wanna play with and a leader.


    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
    Bill was in the league 3 years before Wilt. He won two rings, so he got he reputation going first. His first few years the league was 8 or 9 teams. By the end of Wilts time it was up to probably 24.
    I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

    Guess who? The future X-Presdent...

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    13
    Here is my Top 40 as an “Elite 8” based within roughly on a decade of their prime. Question: Who would win a round robin?

    1 - Coach Red Auerbach
    Russell
    Pettit
    Baylor
    West
    Robertson

    2 - Coach Red Hotlzman
    Chamberlain
    Havlicek
    Barry
    Frazier
    Maravich

    3 - Coach Larry Brown
    Jabbar
    Cowens
    Erving
    Gervin
    Magic Johnson

    4 - Coach Pat Riley
    M Malone
    Bird
    McHale
    Drexler
    Isiah Thomas

    5 - Coach Phil Jackson
    Olajuwon
    K Malone
    Barkley
    Jordan
    Stockton

    6 - Coach Chuck Daly
    Robinson
    Wilkins
    Worthy
    Payton
    Kidd

    7 - Coach Greg Popovich
    Shaq
    Duncan
    Garnett
    Bryant
    Nash

    8 - Coach Steve Kerr
    Dirk
    LeBron
    Durant
    Westbrook
    Curry

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    13
    Or, we could do a top 48 “Final Four” of 12 man teams:
    1 - Russell/Pettit/Baylor/West/Oscar/
    Wilt/Havlicek/Barry/Frazier/Pistol Pete
    Add: Willis Reed/Bob Cousy
    Coach: Red Auerbach

    2 - Jabbar/Cowens/Dr J/Gervin/Magic/
    M Malone/Bird/McHale/Drexler/Isiah
    Add: Bill Walton/Alex English
    Coach: Pat Riley

    3 - Olajuwon/KMalone/Barkley/Jordan/
    Stockton/Robinson/Wilkins//Worthy/
    Payton/Kidd. Add: Chris Mullin/Tracy McGrady
    Coach: Phil Jackson

    4 - Shaq/Duncan/Garnett/Bryant/Nash/
    Dirk/LeBron/Durant/Westbrook/Curry
    Add: Anthony Davis & Chris Paul
    Coach: Greg Popovich

    Who takes the blue ribbon??

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