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  1. #6586
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    Aug 2006
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    281
    Thats vague.

    I would say that with Vlad, Bo and Biggio on the cusp of hitting the big leagues, the long term plan would have to be not to make them the centerpieces of the entire offence right off the bat and to provide them with team leadership that lets them develop.

    And that means they will likely shed some of the pieces like Granderson, Morales, Solarte, Diaz, etc... while keeping certain others like Smoak, Grichuk and Travis. They will likely trade the veteran pieces for low minors prospects and continue with their recent pattern of signing cast-offs, players past their prime or injury comebacks to bridge the gaps

    I don't see Ian Happ fitting into any of that. Gurriel has decent potential as a multi-position player with some power. They already have a traffic jam in the outfield with Alford and Smith and Pompey should they choose to trade Pillar.

    If they trade JA Happ, I assume it will not be for mlb ready players. It will be for low minors depth or roster cast-offs. and it won't be much.

    I also don't see them trading Stroman because they knew he was a loudmouth before and they are invested because when he's good, he's very good. And, truth is that, beyond Sanchex, Stroman and Happ, they're thin on pitching. Sure, Borucki has been good but he's too new to make him a permanent fixture. Garcia has been a garbage fire and Gaviglio really doesn't project to much more than a no.5 or swing starter. They need Stroman....they need him to get consistent.

    And there's no one else really close. If/when they trade Happ, they will need depth and veteran leadership and I assume they will look in the bargain bin for that. In the meantime, they will take a low minors 2nd or 3rd rounder and maybe someone from the bigs or AAA who is taking up a spot on the 40 man roster they want to clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Acquiring him would be a part of a long-term plan. Not sure many of the names you listed would be a part of the long-term plan.
    Last edited by mad_mooney; 07-18-2018 at 08:53 PM.

  2. #6587
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    May 2013
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    787
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_mooney View Post
    30 homers with no one on base is 30 runs produced.

    They need someone who can get on base reliably, who can make quality and productive contact...moving runners over, hit against the shift, hit and run,....a professional hitter with multiple tools. Thats what they don't currently have. A player like that can really spark a rally. They already have Grichuk, Pillar, Hernandez, Smoak, Solarte, Travis and Diaz who all fit that some-pop, some-average profile but more often than not, they're just coming up and grounding out or flying out without producing.

    Happ would just be another one on that list.
    He's 24 years old making league minimum. With 30 homerun power who can play 3 or 4 position defensively. I take Happ on my team 100 times out of a 100.

  3. #6588
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    6,156
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    One that has a lot of doubles but not a ton of walks. You? I would not expect him to hit first unless they want to underutilized his extra base power. Or he becomes more of a walker.

    He looks to me like the kind of guy who could lead the league in extra base hits one day. I think that has to be 2-3, and if he doesn't reach the level we are hoping for I'd say that 6.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Boston has a guy named Mookie Betts hitting first for them this year, maybe you have heard of him. (He also hit first in 109 games in 2016 when Bos had 878 runs scored) It is working pretty good for them. He is on pace for a career high in BB's this year, but that comes with experience and as people stop challenging him.

    I think Bichette with his above average speed (He's leading the Eastern League in SB's) would make a great lead off hitter with all those extra base hits and his ability to make a pitcher worry about him stealing a base. He could live in scoring position.

  4. #6589
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    Jan 2008
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    10,844
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_mooney View Post
    Thats vague.

    I would say that with Vlad, Bo and Biggio on the cusp of hitting the big leagues, the long term plan would have to be not to make them the centerpieces of the entire offence right off the bat and to provide them with team leadership that lets them develop.

    And that means they will likely shed some of the pieces like Granderson, Morales, Solarte, Diaz, etc... while keeping certain others like Smoak, Grichuk and Travis. They will likely trade the veteran pieces for low minors prospects and continue with their recent pattern of signing cast-offs, players past their prime or injury comebacks to bridge the gaps


    I don't see Ian Happ fitting into any of that. Gurriel has decent potential as a multi-position player with some power. They already have a traffic jam in the outfield with Alford and Smith and Pompey should they choose to trade Pillar.

    If they trade JA Happ, I assume it will not be for mlb ready players. It will be for low minors depth or roster cast-offs. and it won't be much.

    I also don't see them trading Stroman because they knew he was a loudmouth before and they are invested because when he's good, he's very good. And, truth is that, beyond Sanchex, Stroman and Happ, they're thin on pitching. Sure, Borucki has been good but he's too new to make him a permanent fixture. Garcia has been a garbage fire and Gaviglio really doesn't project to much more than a no.5 or swing starter. They need Stroman....they need him to get consistent.

    And there's no one else really close. If/when they trade Happ, they will need depth and veteran leadership and I assume they will look in the bargain bin for that. In the meantime, they will take a low minors 2nd or 3rd rounder and maybe someone from the bigs or AAA who is taking up a spot on the 40 man roster they want to clear.
    You are assuming a lot there though. No guarantee those guys end up making it yet for starters. Grichuk, Smoak and Travis are hardly guarantees to be part of the long-term picture either (unlikely IMO). Ian Happ would project to be a better player moving forward than any of those guys IMO. Not sure why you'd structure a build around inferior assets... At this point there are so few MLB pieces to be confident in, you add talent when you can.

    It is all mute probably though because I actually don't think the Cubs would have interest in trading a core caliber piece for a couple rentals.

  5. #6590
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    Aug 2006
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    281
    Ian Happ projecting to be better than Vlad Jr? You must be shrooming.

    The simple matter is that Lourdes Gurriel Jr. has a higher ceiling than Happ as a super-utility....more speed, better defence, solid power, under control for longer and the Jays have invested a lot in bringing him to the organization. Happ doesn't fit any particular holes that the Jays have.

    I don't think Happ is someone you would structure a rebuilding around either. Vlad has at least as much promise as Carlos Delgado did. He has franchise potential and is as solid a prospect as the Jays have ever had. I think he's the perfect player to build your long term hopes around.

    I just don't think they should make him the focal point of the offence the minute he gets to the majors, which is why they should use that roster spot you would hand over to Happ on a more experienced veteran who can take the pressure off the youngsters until they can fully develop at the major league level.

    As for Smoak, Grichuk and Travis, I see them, at the very least, being fixtures for the next 2 years. Smoak is someone who can carry the team when he's hot. Grichuk is the only other player on the club who can CF reliably, should Pillar be moved or hurt, and Travis still is rated as having big time offensive potential. Are they the best players in the league at their respective positions? No. But they are solid pieces that can bridge the gap until the new players can get up to speed.

    And, btw, its *MOOT, not "mute".

    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    You are assuming a lot there though. No guarantee those guys end up making it yet for starters. Grichuk, Smoak and Travis are hardly guarantees to be part of the long-term picture either (unlikely IMO). Ian Happ would project to be a better player moving forward than any of those guys IMO. Not sure why you'd structure a build around inferior assets... At this point there are so few MLB pieces to be confident in, you add talent when you can.

    It is all mute probably though because I actually don't think the Cubs would have interest in trading a core caliber piece for a couple rentals.

  6. #6591
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    Feb 2009
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    I see him as a 2 hitter in the mold of overbay with descent D from SS.
    So yeah I see him as a doubles guy. I do not mind a doubles guy with speed in the leadoff spot. It's usually only the leadoff spot once/game and hitting a double before the big boys comes up is money. I prefer HR power in my 3-6 personally and I don't see him being that guy. If your team is competitive then you probably have true power 3-6.

  7. #6592
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    I think Kevin Pillar will be traded..

  8. #6593
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    281
    in the off-season maybe.

    He's out for 4-6 weeks right now. That will take him until late August, possibly beyond the waiver trade deadline. No one will take him then until the offseason.

  9. #6594
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_mooney View Post
    Ian Happ projecting to be better than Vlad Jr? You must be shrooming.

    The simple matter is that Lourdes Gurriel Jr. has a higher ceiling than Happ as a super-utility....more speed, better defence, solid power, under control for longer and the Jays have invested a lot in bringing him to the organization. Happ doesn't fit any particular holes that the Jays have.

    I don't think Happ is someone you would structure a rebuilding around either. Vlad has at least as much promise as Carlos Delgado did. He has franchise potential and is as solid a prospect as the Jays have ever had. I think he's the perfect player to build your long term hopes around.

    I just don't think they should make him the focal point of the offence the minute he gets to the majors, which is why they should use that roster spot you would hand over to Happ on a more experienced veteran who can take the pressure off the youngsters until they can fully develop at the major league level.

    As for Smoak, Grichuk and Travis, I see them, at the very least, being fixtures for the next 2 years. Smoak is someone who can carry the team when he's hot. Grichuk is the only other player on the club who can CF reliably, should Pillar be moved or hurt, and Travis still is rated as having big time offensive potential. Are they the best players in the league at their respective positions? No. But they are solid pieces that can bridge the gap until the new players can get up to speed.

    And, btw, its *MOOT, not "mute".
    I most definitely did not say that..... I was referring to Smoak, Grichuk and Travis.

  10. #6595
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    Even then, I wouldn't take Happ over Smoak who has way more power, gets on base more and is an elite defender.

    Grichuk is above average fielder who can play CF and has good power so I would take him over Happ too. As for Travis, he's still young enough and has a higher offensive ceiling than Happ.

    So....nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I most definitely did not say that..... I was referring to Smoak, Grichuk and Travis.

  11. #6596
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    I don't know about that. Often a 30hr potential guy is one adjustment away from becoming a 40-50 hr guy.

  12. #6597
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_mooney View Post
    Even then, I wouldn't take Happ over Smoak who has way more power, gets on base more and is an elite defender.

    Grichuk is above average fielder who can play CF and has good power so I would take him over Happ too. As for Travis, he's still young enough and has a higher offensive ceiling than Happ.

    So....nope.
    Players who are 3-7 years older then him.

    For a guy who started the discussion with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_mooney View Post
    Re: Ian Happ

    The very last thing the Jays need is yet another player who strikes out too much but has some pop. They have lots of that right now. What they need, more than anything is players who can hit for average and get on base. They're losing their only sure thing in JD this year and they can't really rely on Vlad/Bo/Biggio off the bat.
    I have very little understanding for why you'd appreciate Randall Grichuk. His career OBP is below .300. Smoak didn't start getting on base at a decent clip until he was 30.

    We can agree to disagree.

  13. #6598
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    Aug 2006
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    281
    I'm just making my point...you're the one arguing it.

    I don't believe the Jays would or should trade JA Happ for Ian Happ. I stand by that. There's no place for him on the team and he's not what they need.

    And its a MOOT point anyway because the Cubs wouldn't trade him for a rental.

    The Jays are not going to be competitive for at least the next 2 years and right now, Shapiro/Atkins seem much more concerned about building up the farm system. For the next year, minimum, we'll see them spend the offseason signing veteran pieces, cast-offs and reclamation projects, trading away what they can for prospects in the low minors.

    With what they have now in Gurriel Jr, Hernandez, Vlad, Bo, Biggio, Alford and Jansen they have a good future core. They also have Grichuk and Pillar and Travis and Tulo under control for at least 2019 and 2020. Smoak is signed through next year. It just makes no sense to shoehorn Ian Happ in there.


    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Players who are 3-7 years older then him.

    For a guy who started the discussion with this:



    I have very little understanding for why you'd appreciate Randall Grichuk. His career OBP is below .300. Smoak didn't start getting on base at a decent clip until he was 30.

    We can agree to disagree.

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