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Thread: Yaz vs Ortiz

  1. #1
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    Yaz vs Ortiz

    On air today, Merloni was saying Ortiz > Yaz as a Sox.

    Well Lou forgot a few things:

    In Yaz's 12 prime years ('63-'74 inclusive) he was a OPS+ 145 hitter playing 151 games per season with a +153 runs saved on D. Yaz also held the all time SB record for the Sox - he wasn't great but he was a lot better than the plow horse Ortiz.

    Ortiz in his 11.5 years here has a 147 OPS+, playing less than 140 games per seasons, with negative runs saved on D, and negative value as a base runner.

    Yaz had more WS (72.8 in his prime 11.5 years here) compared to Ortiz (43.5 as a Sox (actually let's call that a beat down shall we?). Yaz had a higher WS percentage compared to his teams in these years which is due to two things. Yaz played on worse teams and he was a much better player than Ortiz.

    Yaz played in a much worse hitters era than Ortiz, so his raw numbers don't look as great as Ortiz's. Yaz played until he was as old as dirt, so that hurts his rate numbers by comparison. I doubt we see Ortiz playing at age 43.

    Don't forget Yaz was one of the 2-3 best defensive LF'ers of the past 75 years, Ortiz was a fair 1B in his prime, but was basically a DH. Ortiz doesn't even run out grounders. He also has the curse of that word around him as well.

    Yaz also topped Ortiz in the post season:

    Yaz: .369/.447/.600
    Ort: .295/.409/.553

    True it was in less PA's, but they didn't have playoffs during most of Yaz's career back then.

    Can't see any way that Ortiz is even close besides power and rings which in baseball is very much a team stat. Red Sox "Nation" doesn't even exist if not for Yaz's '67 (a 12.4 rWAR season that dwarfs Ortiz's best mark of 6.4). Even Ted Williams best was only a 10.9, and Rice's '78 was a 7.5. Yaz also tossed in a 10.5 in '68, and a 9.5 in '70 (all 1st in the AL BTW).

    Yaz won 3 batting titles, 5 #1st in OBP, 4 #1 OPS, TB twice, 1st runs scored 3 times, triple crown, MVP, 7 GG's, JAWS #4 LF of all time.

    Ortiz has little to toss against that: OBP 1st once, TB once, 5 times top 5 MVP is probably his best number. Still, no dice.

    Yaz > Ortiz.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 07-22-2014 at 04:27 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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    Without Ortiz though, the curse of the bambino could very well still exist today without his major contributions in 04, 07 and 2013.

    It is hard not to take the positional player over the DH however, I'm kinda torn on the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Sox Fan View Post
    Without Ortiz though, the curse of the bambino could very well still exist today without his major contributions in 04, 07 and 2013.

    It is hard not to take the positional player over the DH however, I'm kinda torn on the subject.
    Ortiz was obviously central last year and in '04. I think in '07 the pitching and overall hitting was so good that a generic DH would have been enough. But w/o Yaz there is no '67, and no Boston/Yankee rivalry that follows, we'd be like the Cubs....


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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    Why is this a thread? Thanks for the explanation Bags, but we all (I think) know Yaz > Ortiz.

    Who gives a **** what Lou Merloni says? I don't take most things he says seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonSports96 View Post
    Why is this a thread? Thanks for the explanation Bags, but we all (I think) know Yaz > Ortiz.

    Who gives a **** what Lou Merloni says? I don't take most things he says seriously.
    That restores my faith somewhat, but, over half the callers I heard went with Ortiz. Just turned my stomach.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    That restores my faith somewhat, but, over half the callers I heard went with Ortiz. Just turned my stomach.
    Wow, just wow. Some people....

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    Its so hard to compare players who played 50 years ago to players who play today. The game has changed so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckus16969 View Post
    Its so hard to compare players who played 50 years ago to players who play today. The game has changed so much.
    While it has changed somewhat, I'd argue that it has changed the least compared to the 4 other major sports leagues in north america.

    A little off topic though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    That restores my faith somewhat, but, over half the callers I heard went with Ortiz. Just turned my stomach.
    People now a days are very reactionary. Ortiz just had one of the greatest WS performances ever (we would not have won without him) and most people listening to those two clowns were not alive when Yaz was playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckus16969 View Post
    Its so hard to compare players who played 50 years ago to players who play today. The game has changed so much.
    Not as difficult when you use measures like OPS+ (as Bags did), which normalize to the year of play. Bags' argument boils down to "Yaz was MUCH better compared to his peers than Ortiz ever was" and he's right.

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    Sports radio is such garbage...

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    Both guys are amazing players who did a lot for the team but give me Yaz on this 1.
    With the deepest of regrets I am announcing that I will be leaving Pro Sports Daily. No reason in particular but wanted to thank everyone for a great 6 years here. Lots of great discussion and good poll series as well. Also fun re-drafts. Best of luck to you all in the future.

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    Bottom line:

    Ortiz is one of the greatest power hitters of this generation (a hitter's era).

    Yaz is one of the greatest PURE hitters of all-time (and played in a pitcher's era).

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    Whenever I hear any Boston sports radio I wanna dive through my windshield. Felger and Mazz especially. Never heard two people who genuinely believe themselves to be geniuses be so horribly wrong (while getting paid for it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonSports96 View Post
    Bottom line:

    Ortiz is one of the greatest power hitters of this generation (a hitter's era).

    Yaz is one of the greatest PURE hitters of all-time (and played in a pitcher's era).
    This is probably in the right direction but it ignores how great Yaz was defensively. More importantly, as I mentioned above, stats like OPS+ and others that Bags used compare each player to his peers and are adjusted to the specific year. In effect we're asking "how much better is X than the guys he's playing against?" That comparison says that Ortiz is, as you've said, own of the better power hitters in his generation but Yaz was an elite all around player.

    And Bags is right on the sentimental level, too. If Yaz had not won the AL almost single-handedly in 1967 there would not have been a "Red Sox Nation" as we came to know it. His performance and that year forged a bond that strong.

    Unfortunately, contemporary fans know Yaz only from the tail end of his 23yr Sox career and they compare those fading memories (if any) with Ortiz' flair for the dramatic and declare him the winner based on the big moments. It's unfortunate but perhaps not unexpected in a generation of fans that measures everything by offensive production.

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