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  1. #1
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    Cavaliers Summer League

    didn't see one for this yet but both Bennett and Wiggins looking great.

    Never realized how huge a step back Wiggins has!
    "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! "

  2. #2
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    Delly is noticeably the most professional looking player on the court from a poise perspective. He is as advertised, a defensive pg who is a solid passer and floor general.
    "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! "

  3. #3
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    Wiggans super quick on defense. Play I just watched, Bennett was caught between a Milwaukee player faking a corner three and a big behind him under the rim open. Dude passed to the big over Bennett and all of a sudden an easy bucket was turned into a turnover by Wiggins who appeared out of nowhere.
    "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! "

  4. #4
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    Who is that trim, muscular beast wearing Anthony Bennett's jersey?

    Wiggins looking better than Parker in game one of their long careers....except from three point range.
    "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! "

  5. #5
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    Cavs squeaks out the win 70-68, both Parker and Wiggins looks like the real deal. Bennett looked good at times though he still had his lazy moments, just less than last year.

    Considering how crazy today was, heck Scotty Hopkins was traded at halftime lol, the kids looked good and the offense looked fast.
    "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! "

  6. #6
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    Really liked what we saw from Wiggins. Had an off night from 3 but that's alright.

  7. #7
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    its only one game, but Wiggins looks like the real deal. no way i include him for love. Bennett looks like he is going to be a career 13-15pts 7-8 rebounds per game type of guy. He is going to be a very good 6 man.

  8. #8
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    Ugh I hate Summer league games. Fans take it way too seriously. Glad to see the guys in action but when I hear coaches yelling "No Foul" on the sideline, come on.


    TIME TO GET ANOTHER ONE. #DALLAS2DALLAS #BALLISLIFE

  9. #9
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    Yeah can't take the summer league games too seriously. I liked what I saw from both teams. I haven't finished watching the game yet but will do so shortly. Really good to see Bennett in shape. Looks like our next game is against the Spurs tomorrow at 4 pm.

  10. #10
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    Based on what seems like vast improvement on Bennetts part and Andrew Wiggins simply being freaky good for someone they say can't shoot. I think the cavs should hold the team as is and wait for Love to simply run the clock out on the wolves and get him without trading next summer.

    If Lebron is coming into the team knowing that it is going to take time to develop these young players. Why not get the young ones better and then get Love later.

    Let me say I'm not as big on Love as everyone else is. In fact when love came into the league everyone thought he'd be a great role player. Well.... he is... he's a Chris Bosh type big star on a small team. Definitely an All Star, but not elite.

    Love is a great scorer...crappy defender. I watched a lot of Minny games last year and Love is in large part to blame for some of the lack of success they are having. No Defense. He spends so much time out at the 3 point line he doesn't crash the offensive boards anymore. If you look at his per game stats his total rebounds per game were almost a 2 per game hit from the previous year. That while playing more time. If you are a post player on the court for 36 minutes out of a 48 minute game. At least 4 per half drop right into your hands, the problem is Love has gotten less gritty and doesn't fight for rebounds anymore. He's gotten softer than Chris Bosh.

    If you can get him for something small it's worth it, he will stretch the floor. But don't count on seeing a post move out of him, unless it's backing in a small guard all the way from the 3 point line.

    The other thing I was thinking is that when do you ever have 4 young rookies on a team that will play all year round together. Well this is what you get with Wiggins, Tristan, Bennett and now Dwight Powell (All Canadians). We all know rookies need time to develop and these 4 kids would not only have Lebron to learn from during the year to help elevate their games, but then they head off to the Canadian National team where former Team USA Assistant Coach Jay Triano will coach them each summer. When they play for Team Canada they will be given more responsibility than with the cavs which will just boost their confidence for when they return to the team in the fall. And this presumably will be happening each summer for the foreseeable future, meaning our rookies will be getting more basketball experience than the average young players. (Kyrie same thing with Team USA) and develop much quicker.

    Also for you Bennett haters, he wont have time to get fat. (I think he's going to make everyone take back the flopped pick scenario this year. That crazy dunk from the first vegas summer league game was sick. Kevin Love doesn't really dunk, he kind of places his hands above the rim and places the ball through the rim, with a myriad of force.)

    Whew I'm so glad I got tickets before Lebron said he was coming back... tickets be crazy now.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICED View Post
    Based on what seems like vast improvement on Bennetts part and Andrew Wiggins simply being freaky good for someone they say can't shoot. I think the cavs should hold the team as is and wait for Love to simply run the clock out on the wolves and get him without trading next summer.

    If Lebron is coming into the team knowing that it is going to take time to develop these young players. Why not get the young ones better and then get Love later.

    Let me say I'm not as big on Love as everyone else is. In fact when love came into the league everyone thought he'd be a great role player. Well.... he is... he's a Chris Bosh type big star on a small team. Definitely an All Star, but not elite.

    Love is a great scorer...crappy defender. I watched a lot of Minny games last year and Love is in large part to blame for some of the lack of success they are having. No Defense. He spends so much time out at the 3 point line he doesn't crash the offensive boards anymore. If you look at his per game stats his total rebounds per game were almost a 2 per game hit from the previous year. That while playing more time. If you are a post player on the court for 36 minutes out of a 48 minute game. At least 4 per half drop right into your hands, the problem is Love has gotten less gritty and doesn't fight for rebounds anymore. He's gotten softer than Chris Bosh.

    If you can get him for something small it's worth it, he will stretch the floor. But don't count on seeing a post move out of him, unless it's backing in a small guard all the way from the 3 point line.

    The other thing I was thinking is that when do you ever have 4 young rookies on a team that will play all year round together. Well this is what you get with Wiggins, Tristan, Bennett and now Dwight Powell (All Canadians). We all know rookies need time to develop and these 4 kids would not only have Lebron to learn from during the year to help elevate their games, but then they head off to the Canadian National team where former Team USA Assistant Coach Jay Triano will coach them each summer. When they play for Team Canada they will be given more responsibility than with the cavs which will just boost their confidence for when they return to the team in the fall. And this presumably will be happening each summer for the foreseeable future, meaning our rookies will be getting more basketball experience than the average young players. (Kyrie same thing with Team USA) and develop much quicker.

    Also for you Bennett haters, he wont have time to get fat. (I think he's going to make everyone take back the flopped pick scenario this year. That crazy dunk from the first vegas summer league game was sick. Kevin Love doesn't really dunk, he kind of places his hands above the rim and places the ball through the rim, with a myriad of force.)

    Whew I'm so glad I got tickets before Lebron said he was coming back... tickets be crazy now.
    Ok, wow. Just for the sake of this post I'm going to ignore you talking about vast improvements from players when we've seen them in one exhibition game, but have you actually watched Kevin Love? You're right about his defensive struggles but I'm baffled that you're criticizing his rebounding and post moves. The only complaint you can make about his post moves is that he often plays right handed dominant. Sure, if it was hampering his ability to score efficiently that may be a problem. However, with his ability to step back, stretch the floor, take other bigs off the dribble, and create for others he's able to get away with it. It's not like he's only going to beat you one way, he can beat you in so many different ways and that makes it incredibly tough for defenders. To me it seems like you looked at his stat page (not even thoroughly) and made assumptions from that. I mean Love was 3rd in the entire league in rebounds per game and you're criticizing him for a slight drop-off in rebounds per game from the previous season? The same season where he only played in 18 games compared to 77 this past season? You're kidding, right? I'm sorry but I'll gladly take this stat line from my PF:

    26.1 PPG | 12.4 RPG | 4.4 APG | 45.7% FG% | 37.6% 3P% | 82% FT% | 59% TS% | 26.9 PER | 14.3 WS

    I completely understand why people are hesitant to move Wiggins for Love. Wiggins has all the potential in the world and we have him under a very reasonable contract for the foreseeable future. With that said there's no reason to try and talk down Love. Love is what he is and that's a damn good player who is still only 25 years old. We'd be foolish not to throw Bennett/Waiters/Thompson and a couple of 1st round picks out for him. Yeah, the guy isn't great defensively, I get the concerns there. Call me crazy but I'll take the dominant offensive player and trust that our defensive system along with Love being put in an environment that demands defense from our coaching staff and our leader can at least get him to a slightly below average level. It's not like Bennett or TT are going to do be dominant defensively.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melo15 View Post
    Ok, wow. Just for the sake of this post I'm going to ignore you talking about vast improvements from players when we've seen them in one exhibition game, but have you actually watched Kevin Love? You're right about his defensive struggles but I'm baffled that you're criticizing his rebounding and post moves. The only complaint you can make about his post moves is that he often plays right handed dominant. Sure, if it was hampering his ability to score efficiently that may be a problem. However, with his ability to step back, stretch the floor, take other bigs off the dribble, and create for others he's able to get away with it. It's not like he's only going to beat you one way, he can beat you in so many different ways and that makes it incredibly tough for defenders. To me it seems like you looked at his stat page (not even thoroughly) and made assumptions from that. I mean Love was 3rd in the entire league in rebounds per game and you're criticizing him for a slight drop-off in rebounds per game from the previous season? The same season where he only played in 18 games compared to 77 this past season? You're kidding, right? I'm sorry but I'll gladly take this stat line from my PF:

    26.1 PPG | 12.4 RPG | 4.4 APG | 45.7% FG% | 37.6% 3P% | 82% FT% | 59% TS% | 26.9 PER | 14.3 WS

    I completely understand why people are hesitant to move Wiggins for Love. Wiggins has all the potential in the world and we have him under a very reasonable contract for the foreseeable future. With that said there's no reason to try and talk down Love. Love is what he is and that's a damn good player who is still only 25 years old. We'd be foolish not to throw Bennett/Waiters/Thompson and a couple of 1st round picks out for him. Yeah, the guy isn't great defensively, I get the concerns there. Call me crazy but I'll take the dominant offensive player and trust that our defensive system along with Love being put in an environment that demands defense from our coaching staff and our leader can at least get him to a slightly below average level. It's not like Bennett or TT are going to do be dominant defensively.
    I was with you until there...Minnesota has absolutely zero leverage in a deal for Love. To throw Bennett, Waiters, Thompson, AND a couple of 1st round picks to Minnesota???? The only reason that I would consider Waiters and Thompson is based on team control (1-2 more years for Thompson, 2-3 more years for Waiters)...but 2-3 years of 27+ points, 12+ boards, and 4+ assists from Thompson/Waiters (who have NEVER played with anyone anywhere near the talent level of LeBron James...i.e...they are going to get better because #6/#23/#32 or whatever number he decides to strap to his back steps on the floor) is VERY intriguing to me.

    The reason that the Heat were not a good fit for LeBron going forward was their lack of depth which would cause him to play 40+ minutes per game...trading Thompson, Waiters, AND Bennett...along with a couple 1st rounders would drastically cut into the depth that this basketball team would have to support LeBron.

    I would LOVE to get Kevin Love on this basketball team...but it would have to be for a deal that benefits us a lot more than the Wolves. As I have said on other threads, if they go into the season with the roster as it is (with a piece or two added, of course) and see that they are struggling at the midway point...then you go after another all-star. But...what if they are dicing up the rest of the NBA with the roster as built??? This team has assets that will help them get even better going forward (whether that be at the deadline or next summer)...multiple 1st round picks, a ridiculous expiring non-guaranteed contract for Brendon Haywood (over $10 million), not to mention the pull of playing with the best basketball player on the planet.

    I think we are all a little too willing to give up WAY too much to a team that has a player under contract for one more season...a player that has come out and said, in no uncertain terms, that he won't re-sign with said team.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by browniebuck View Post
    I was with you until there...Minnesota has absolutely zero leverage in a deal for Love. To throw Bennett, Waiters, Thompson, AND a couple of 1st round picks to Minnesota???? The only reason that I would consider Waiters and Thompson is based on team control (1-2 more years for Thompson, 2-3 more years for Waiters)...but 2-3 years of 27+ points, 12+ boards, and 4+ assists from Thompson/Waiters (who have NEVER played with anyone anywhere near the talent level of LeBron James...i.e...they are going to get better because #6/#23/#32 or whatever number he decides to strap to his back steps on the floor) is VERY intriguing to me.

    The reason that the Heat were not a good fit for LeBron going forward was their lack of depth which would cause him to play 40+ minutes per game...trading Thompson, Waiters, AND Bennett...along with a couple 1st rounders would drastically cut into the depth that this basketball team would have to support LeBron.

    I would LOVE to get Kevin Love on this basketball team...but it would have to be for a deal that benefits us a lot more than the Wolves. As I have said on other threads, if they go into the season with the roster as it is (with a piece or two added, of course) and see that they are struggling at the midway point...then you go after another all-star. But...what if they are dicing up the rest of the NBA with the roster as built??? This team has assets that will help them get even better going forward (whether that be at the deadline or next summer)...multiple 1st round picks, a ridiculous expiring non-guaranteed contract for Brendon Haywood (over $10 million), not to mention the pull of playing with the best basketball player on the planet.

    I think we are all a little too willing to give up WAY too much to a team that has a player under contract for one more season...a player that has come out and said, in no uncertain terms, that he won't re-sign with said team.
    First off to be clear I didn't mean all 3 of them. I meant a mixture of that group, I should have clarified further. That's my bad. As for the rest of your post I agree with the mindset behind it but disagree with a lot of points. First off, trading Thompson or Bennett immediately cancels out with the addition of Love so no depth is lost there. Then we look at the Waiters aspect and losing him does hurt but with Wiggins and (likely) Ray Allen we'll be fine there and can even use Joe Harris for a few minutes here and there as well. My point being that a package of say Bennett and Waiters wouldn't hurt our depth when we'd be bringing back Love and (likely) Allen along with possibly Mike Miller too.

    Now, the other aspect of this deal would be the picks portion. Let's just say we dealt Waiters, Bennett, the Miami pick and the Memphis pick. Let's look at how our roster could possibly be shaped and their current ages going into the season at that point:

    PG: Irving (22) / Delly (23)
    SG: Wiggins (19) / Allen (38) / Harris (22)
    SF: James (29) / Miller (34)
    PF: Love (25) / TT (23) / Powell (22)
    C: Varejao (31) / TT (23) / Haywood (34)

    Let's also realize that dealing for Love knowing that he'd re-up here would mean that we have Irving and Wiggins locked up for 6 years, LeBron for 2 as of now (pretty sure we can agree he's staying long-term though), and Love for 5. That's a long time with a pretty damn strong core that's still really young and would grow together. Let's also acknowledge that Varejao's contract is up after this year and I think it's beyond reasonable to expect him to take team friendly deals to keep playing in Cleveland until he decides to retire. Still though, center is the glaring hole moving forward with this roster. Now, do you expect to land a legitimate starting center with the Miami or the Memphis pick? With Miami bringing back Bosh and likely bringing in Deng I think we can agree that they'll be in the mix for a playoff spot even if Wade only plays 55 games. That means the pick is likely going to be used next year and will likely be in the 12-20 range. Good area to pick? Definitely. Are we going to find a starting center there? Highly unlikely, but possible. Now onto the Memphis pick, these are the protections on it:

    Memphis' 1st round pick to Cleveland protected for selections 1-5 and 15-30 in 2015, 1-5 and 15-30 in 2016, 1-5 in 2017 or 1-5 in 2018 or unprotected in 2019
    Do you expect Memphis to fall out of the playoffs these next two years after extending Randolph and getting a healthy Gasol back? That's the only way you're seeing that pick next year or the year after. Sure, it's possible, but I think it's very unlikely. Either way, we're again looking at a pick around the 12-14 range. Same with the Miami pick, possible but unlikely we'll be able to acquire a starting center with it.

    Now, let's look at a different asset that we would still have on our team after the trade; Haywood's contract:

    Haywood will almost certainly be waived before next August and never receive that $10.5MM. Still, after next year’s July moratorium, that salary would still count toward the league’s salary matching requirements if the Cavs were to trade him. Cleveland could acquire a player making as much as $5MM more than Haywood’s non-guaranteed 2015/16 salary, and the team that gives up such a player could waive Haywood and gain a chunk of cap space equal to that approximately $10.5MM salary. Therein lies the value of Haywood.
    I think we can agree that's a more likely asset to bring in a starting center. So we'd still be able to add a legitimate piece to our team even though we wouldn't have any 1st round picks next year. We also dealt our 2016 1st to Boston though but I don't think anyone is going to be too upset about missing out on a pick around the 27-30 range. So really if we traded Waiters, Bennett, the Miami pick and the Memphis pick we'd still have enough depth to compete and we'd keep our best asset to add onto our team moving forward. With how young our core is we don't have to continue adding more young pieces. Sure, it'd be nice, but we'll be okay with adding veteran ring chasers on minimum contracts wanting to play with LeBron. You mention that Miami had no depth and that was their downfall. You're right. But you're ignoring the fact that they were in a completely different position when they came together. There was really nobody else on their roster at the time whereas we have multiple young pieces on our team already. Also, if Wade stays healthy their depth issue would not have shined so brightly, and that's an age issue with Wade. I doubt we'll have to worry too much about that with Irving, Wiggins, and Love.

  14. #14
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    There's a lot of truth in the comments Iced has provided..
    ...Let me say I'm not as big on Love as everyone else is. In fact when (L)ove came into the league everyone thought he'd be a great role player. Well.... he is... he's a Chris Bosh type big star on a small team. Definitely an All Star, but not elite...
    Being a big fish in a little pond isn't an improvement... For the last four years, Kevin Love's offensive rebounds have declined.. His total rebounds are still pretty good, however, when you look at the players around him, only Nikola Pekovic comes close to being a "rebound" guy & he had less than HALF the total rebounds as Love. In short.. Love was pretty much the only guy on the T-Wolves that got a reasonable number of boards.. Everyone else was sort of on the floor.. While it's not strictly "a blind squirrel finding a nut" rebounding skill, if you're the only guy getting boards.. your numbers will look inflated. Put another way, if Love was on the Pacers or Bulls or even Golden State.. his rebounding totals would be at lease a third less.. Still good "numbers", but not exactly 24 & 12 every night.

    The comment by David Griffin was that he wasn't trading Andrew Wiggins. If he doesn't, the Cavs have an SG/SF that could become as good as anyone in the game.. If the deal requires TT or Bennett, okay.. If the deal involves first round picks, okay.. Hang onto Wiggins would be the smart move.. If more is required, then the overall strength of the team becomes less and with it, the chances of future glory.

    Thoughts...

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Melo15 View Post
    Ok, wow. Just for the sake of this post I'm going to ignore you talking about vast improvements from players when we've seen them in one exhibition game, but have you actually watched Kevin Love? You're right about his defensive struggles but I'm baffled that you're criticizing his rebounding and post moves. The only complaint you can make about his post moves is that he often plays right handed dominant. Sure, if it was hampering his ability to score efficiently that may be a problem. However, with his ability to step back, stretch the floor, take other bigs off the dribble, and create for others he's able to get away with it. It's not like he's only going to beat you one way, he can beat you in so many different ways and that makes it incredibly tough for defenders. To me it seems like you looked at his stat page (not even thoroughly) and made assumptions from that. I mean Love was 3rd in the entire league in rebounds per game and you're criticizing him for a slight drop-off in rebounds per game from the previous season? The same season where he only played in 18 games compared to 77 this past season? You're kidding, right? I'm sorry but I'll gladly take this stat line from my PF:

    26.1 PPG | 12.4 RPG | 4.4 APG | 45.7% FG% | 37.6% 3P% | 82% FT% | 59% TS% | 26.9 PER | 14.3 WS

    I completely understand why people are hesitant to move Wiggins for Love. Wiggins has all the potential in the world and we have him under a very reasonable contract for the foreseeable future. With that said there's no reason to try and talk down Love. Love is what he is and that's a damn good player who is still only 25 years old. We'd be foolish not to throw Bennett/Waiters/Thompson and a couple of 1st round picks out for him. Yeah, the guy isn't great defensively, I get the concerns there. Call me crazy but I'll take the dominant offensive player and trust that our defensive system along with Love being put in an environment that demands defense from our coaching staff and our leader can at least get him to a slightly below average level. It's not like Bennett or TT are going to do be dominant defensively.
    A lot of interesting points here, and you are definitely entitled to that opinion, one to which I'm sure a lot of people share, but I feel like you are actually the one who just looked at his stats (seeing as you pasted a line from them) and maybe watched the Kevin Love Highlight reels and not actual watched a single full Minnesota game this year.

    Does Kevin Love have post moves? Yes of course he does... my point was that each year he moves further and further away from the basket and he's become less of a post position player. He's turning into a 6'9 shooting guard.

    On Minny he was literally sometimes choking an entire side of the court by stretching out the floor and by taking 3 point shots (...and making them, don't get me wrong he's a great shooter) withing about 6 feet of two other guards on his own team and their defenders. Now initially you are ok great... he's got the defense collapsing on him, fantastic now he can kick it around the other side or hit the completely open Pekovich inside. I just didn't see that happening too much, the ball stuck and stopped in his hands.

    Now I think if they did get Love though, that there's no way he would stop the ball if there were an open James or Kyrie at the top of the paint and perhaps this tendency came out of him just thinking not a single other player on his team could make an open shot.... so there is that. I just feel like the Cavs need an interior presence, Love had that his first 3 years in the league. Maybe he can be that again and for the right combination of guys... sure get him. He's an all-star... just not an elite one.

    My last point. Wiggins, Bennett, Waiters are currently not stars and haven't earned anything yet in their young careers, so I know where you are coming from that angle, ditch them to get a present star. But if you take a look at the way any of them move on the court, with the kind of dynamic flashes of brilliance they have shown and compare that with Love who has great skill, but very little athleticism itself and I would still be the type to take a chance on Love's free agency next year and give these guys one more year to develop.

    I'd hate to pull an Oklahoma type move like with Harden, where they allow him to slip away because they just don't think he's that good and then that player blows up the second they leave the team.

    That's all I'm saying...

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