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  1. #1
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    Off topic Basketball Discussions

    Like many other threads, I got into a discussion that doesn't really fit the topic necesarily and then the thread was closed. So I figured a thread where we can move basketball discussions that start elsewhere but don't really fit anywhere could be useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that's interesting, i think it's probably one of the very best for capturing overall value. which ones do you like?
    I haven't seen an advanced stat that tries to measure a players "value" in basketball so far that doesn't have extreme biases and flaws in them. So to answer your question, none.

    Earlier you mentioned how Tony Parker wasn't good at defense, I wouldn't go that far personally. He is a solid/average defender. But take a look at the 01/02 season to the 07/08 season. He played with one of the best wing defenders in NBA history, Bruce Bowen. During those 7 seasons Bowen was on 7 straight all-defensive teams while Parker has never been on one. Why? Because Bowen was a great defensive player and Parker isn't. There is no argument IMO that anyone can make about that. However, if you look at each of their defensive win shares they are basically the same from season to season. Over the course of those 7 years Parker had 25.2 defensive win shares and Bowen had 25.

    How does Bowen get so low and how does Parker get so many that two players on the same team who are on completely different levels defensively have the same "value"? It's because they use a combination of team stats and individual stats. So Parker being on a team with Duncan and Bowen will automatically have his defensive win shares propped up by being on the same team with them. Then individual stats like steals and blocks carry value even though that's not necesarily an indicator of how good a player is defensively. There are great defensive wings who will only get 40 steals in a season and there are bad defensive players who will get 120.

    Two players can put up the exact same stats, play the exact same, and in reality have the exact same value but depending on teammates and how the team does overall one could have win shares of 12 while the other only gets 4 win shares. So no I don't think win shares captures overall value well at all.

  2. #2
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    ^That's pretty interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killersweet View Post
    ^That's pretty interesting.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Rock Shaqs View Post
    What is so funny mate?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    Like many other threads, I got into a discussion that doesn't really fit the topic necesarily and then the thread was closed. So I figured a thread where we can move basketball discussions that start elsewhere but don't really fit anywhere could be useful.



    I haven't seen an advanced stat that tries to measure a players "value" in basketball so far that doesn't have extreme biases and flaws in them. So to answer your question, none.
    What about WARP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    What about WARP?
    Has basically the same limitations.

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    Like what? Ben Wallacehad a sick WAR because or his defense. Same with his RAMP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Like what? Ben Wallacehad a sick WAR because or his defense. Same with his RAMP
    Ben Wallace wracked up a load of defensive stats though such as blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds. So yes, his defensive numbers would look great. The guy who actually created the WARP stat for basketball has a site that explains how it's calculated and he also talks about its limitations due to the fact that stats just don't cover everything and how even though there are stats for many things they still basically have to guess the value of them.

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    Well yea defense is never taken into consideration in regular advanced stats. But there are a lot of developing stats that account for things that don't show up on boxsheets (they have articles on literally screens). The NBA factors in some stats now like defending the rim stats (did you know Perkins limits guys when defending the rim to 41 FG%) and all that.

    Of course you always need the eye test.

  10. #10
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    I have seen the occasional advanced stat breakdown that gets things fairly well. But it seems to be more on a specific area such as defending the rim stats but there is nothing really worthwhile that puts everything together as of right now. And its not just on the defensive side, offensively I think there are holes in the advanced stats.

  11. #11
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    To get a catch all stat is hard. You take multiple stats and try to piece it together.

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    I was just wondering, who do you guys follow on Twitter for good raptors coverage and insider info?

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    Bramaca, if we just signed patman toa 6 million $ per year contract, and we bring GVZ back for around 4-5 million, is there any room left under the cap for us to sign any other players?? I know youve gone over this befre, im just trying to get a better understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Well yea defense is never taken into consideration in regular advanced stats. But there are a lot of developing stats that account for things that don't show up on boxsheets (they have articles on literally screens). The NBA factors in some stats now like defending the rim stats (did you know Perkins limits guys when defending the rim to 41 FG%) and all that.

    Of course you always need the eye test.
    A lot of advanced stats are based off of the eye test. Not directed towards you, but I don't understand why people always think they're some arbitrary formula that some guy made up off of the box score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
    A lot of advanced stats are based off of the eye test. Not directed towards you, but I don't understand why people always think they're some arbitrary formula that some guy made up off of the box score.
    I kinda meant eye test as the things hard to keep track of and stuff. But yea, I've always said stats are the data collected from observation.

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