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  1. #1
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    Catchers should incorporate framing into WAR

    Very good article on framing pitches.

    http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/stor...-espn-magazine

    Brian McCann would have roughly 3 more WAR per year since '08 every year. That's HUGE.

  2. #2
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    If we could finally attach an accurate framing weight to catchers I think people would begin to recognize just how important that position really is…

    Of course that would require people to accept someone with a ~0.250 or below average is still amazingly valuable due to their defense.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  3. #3
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    Example from the Yankees:
    Brian McCann: 0.223/0.287 wOBA/76 wRC+/0.7 fWAR

    Not so good; however, he has ~17.1Runs Saved behind the dish. Adding that in to his total means he is actually at…

    2.55 fWAR

    We really need to start putting these numbers into conversations.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  4. #4
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    Catchers should incorporate framing into WAR.

    Am I missing something? DRS uses runs saved above or below average. This is just taking the absolute number of runs saved by framing (multiplying every "borderline" strike call by a set run value), dividing by 10, and adding it to the catcher's WAR total without actually establishing any replacement level baseline.

  5. #5
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    ^^ yea. It seems like the runs are being added onto the end, not before adjustments for position and replacement level, which seems to stack the deck a bit and throw off the numbers, but maybe I am wrong.

  6. #6
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    I'd rather have something like runs saved above or below average. And whatever that number is, that should be included in WAR.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  7. #7
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    Pretty sure stat heads and not catchers are the ones who calculate WAR

  8. #8
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    I think this is one of those intangible things that we know impacts the game even though we can't perfectly quantify it enough to put into a stat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Haha View Post
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynoplasty;
    Am I missing something? DRS uses runs saved above or below average. This is just taking the absolute number of runs saved by framing (multiplying every "borderline" strike call by a set run value), dividing by 10, and adding it to the catcher's WAR total without actually establishing any replacement level baseline.
    It is considerably more complicated than that, as demonstrated in the article.

    Specific Ball and Strike states (0-0 or 0-2 etc) represent different values for an additional strike as demonstrated by the #3 Infographic.

    This system would work the same as producing runs via the bat or glove; you add up all the runs produced/saved via framing and you get the final runs/saved score for the player. Divide by that year's R/Win (this season is ~9.3) add in positional adjustment, and bingo, total WAR.

    No different than adding in runs produced by hitting x # of singles.

    Works exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan;
    I think this is one of those intangible things that we know impacts the game even though we can't perfectly quantify it enough to put into a stat.
    Did you not read the article?

    They literally did just that.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  10. #10
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    Very good article.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    It is considerably more complicated than that, as demonstrated in the article.

    Specific Ball and Strike states (0-0 or 0-2 etc) represent different values for an additional strike as demonstrated by the #3 Infographic.

    This system would work the same as producing runs via the bat or glove; you add up all the runs produced/saved via framing and you get the final runs/saved score for the player. Divide by that year's R/Win (this season is ~9.3) add in positional adjustment, and bingo, total WAR.

    No different than adding in runs produced by hitting x # of singles.

    Works exactly the same.


    Did you not read the article?

    They literally did just that.
    I understand what you're saying, and agree, but weren't they just throwing it on at the end, an not adjusting?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Did you not read the article?

    They literally did just that.
    The problem is that only with 2 strikes can you somewhat accurately weigh the value of earning that extra strike. For other counts, it creates an entirely different scenario...

    What's the value of a 1-0 pitch vs. a 0-1 count? Obviously a 0-1 is better for the pitcher but how do you quantify how much better? What's the difference between a 2-1 and a 1-2 count. We know which is better for the pitcher but I don't see how you can quantify it. It varies for each pitcher depending on what stuff he has and each hitter. If it's a 1-1 pitch and it's borderline the catcher earning a strike is a lot more valuable with Miguel Cabrera at the plate than it is some minor league scrub.

    3-0 count, pitcher throws a borderline pitch. The catcher frames it and gets the call. So instead of a walk, the pitcher lives to throw a 3-1 pitch. But the hitter, having a hitter's count, sits on a pitch and hits a HR. The catcher framing the pitch in this case cost his team big time. A walk would have been much better to give up than a HR. But if you evaluate the one individual pitch that the catcher framed, he helped his team. It just created a set of circumstances that ended up hurting them down the line.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Haha View Post
    What I feel right now is like the satisfaction you feel when a highly judgmental, moralistic televangelist gets caught screwing a male hooker.
    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    Catchers should incorporate framing into WAR
    Catchers will continue playing the game on the field.

    Stat-heads, or some such, will continue quantifying the game through statistical measures.



    A lot of work has been done on pitch framing and I think it is quite likely that we'll soon be comfortable enough with our attempts to quantify it that it'll be added to WAR.



    As to WAA vs WAR,
    I'm more familiar with FanGraphs' WAR and the way they present their data is quite clear.
    All measures are first presented with respect to average.

    Take Brian McCann
    At this point of the season his batting has been 6.7 runs below average, his base running 0.7 runs below average, his fielding 2.6 runs above average, and he gets 3.7 runs for his position. All those numbers are relative to average. THEN then adjustment for replacement is made - which is 7.8 runs currently.

    Adding the batting, base running, fielding and positional runs gives us -1.1 runs. McCann has been 1.1 runs worse than average. Adding the 7.8 replacement makes McCann 6.7 runs above replacement.
    Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. —Greg King

  14. #14
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    Catchers already get treated poorly when it comes to WAR....mainly because of the lack of innings though.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Catchers already get treated poorly when it comes to WAR
    People continually make this claim
    I've seen little evidence to support it.
    Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. —Greg King

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