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  1. #1
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    Mike Pouncey and Knowshon Moreno both have surgery.

    There wasn't a thread made yet but these both need them.

    Moreno is out 4-5 weeks for knee surgery, so basically the start of training camp. Pouncey is out for at least 3 months. Abramson is reporting he could possibly miss the first 6 games.

    mfw the Miami Dolphins

  2. #2
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    Commented already in the other thread but basically..........

    .........worried more about RB than C.

    Garner or Larsen or Brenner won't be that much of a downgrade at C. Wilfork was going to abuse whoever we lined up at C week 1 anyway. He always destroys Pouncey.

    But the fact that we haven't upgraded RB is really disappointing. It's the easiest position to fix through the draft. I didn't mind adding Moreno (had he been healthy and in shape) but he wasn't a guaranteed upgrade. And Miller should've had to fight for any role on the team........not been handed the RB2 job........which is now looking like the RB1 job.

    And to not have brought in more competition to make sure that we didn't have to rely on DT again. C'mon!!! Philbin talking up DT's OTA was laughable. RBs almost always show their goods as rookies. I highly doubt DT all of the sudden becomes a good RB.

    This whole mess is interconnected too. We needed to upgrade our RBs as insurance for a young/new OL group. Moreno was an upgrade for a pass-protecting RB, but he was just one guy. Miller and DT were so awful in pass protection that they didn't deserve to be just handed their roles again.

    I'm not saying Landry or Turner were bad picks necessarily, but to not draft Carlos Hyde in round 2 OR Tre Mason in round 3..........idk but that could come back to bite us. I know they're rookies and we wouldn't have been sure on their pass protection, but it couldn't have been worse than Miller/DT and at least those guys know how to tote the rock.

  3. #3
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    welp this sucks for the OL. I don't believe anybody when they say that Pouncey is replaceable right now . . . with what we have on our team. He is one of the best centers in all the NFL. To say someone like Brenner or Garner can come in and do what he does is kind of ridiculous to say imo. This is a huge blow to the offense, no matter how you shake it.

  4. #4
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    Neither of these effected our projected win total as they shouldn't. Miller was already ahead of Moreno so if anything when he returns he could be improved. Pouncey out the first few games does hurt but shouldn't be too huge of a deal, can get by with a backup for a game or two there. If it was Albert gone then yes it would be a huge deal being we have no one who can play LT at an even average level. Have a few guys who can fill in, just have to hope the rest of the line is improved.

  5. #5
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    Sorry but I don't trust Garner and Brenner to replace Pouncey.

    mfw the Miami Dolphins

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KodytheKing View Post
    Sorry but I don't trust Garner and Brenner to replace Pouncey.
    Can't blame you. Garner never stays healthy and Brenner got exposed pretty quickly. Larsen is a long shot.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like Pouncey for a lot of reasons - mostly b/c he's such an idiot - but that doesn't mean I think we're in good shape at C.

    Hickey should've been more careful with C. Pouncey was a high risk guy even without this injury. He could've been facing suspension just for the bullying story, and knowing his drug use, he could be suspended at anytime if he starts getting random drug tested - which I imagine he will now after that Wells Report.

    USC center Marcus Martin would've made a lot of sense in round 3.........even without knowing this hip issue would come up..........just to insure against Pouncey's high suspension risk. Martin was there in early round 3 and ranked higher by most than Billy Turner.
    Last edited by Sparky; 06-25-2014 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    Can't blame you. Garner never stays healthy and Brenner got exposed pretty quickly. Larsen is a long shot.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like Pouncey for a lot of reasons - mostly b/c he's such an idiot - but that doesn't mean I think we're in good shape at C.

    Hickey should've been more careful with C. Pouncey was a high risk guy even without this injury. He could've been facing suspension just for the bullying story, and knowing his drug use, he could be suspended at anytime if he starts getting random drug tested - which I imagine he will now after that Wells Report.

    USC center Marcus Martin would've made a lot of sense in round 3.........even without knowing this hip issue would come up..........just to insure against Pouncey's high suspension risk. Martin was there in early round 3 and ranked higher by most than Billy Turner.
    In hinsight yes this would have been a great pick. But at draft time, we had a pro bowl center on our roster . . . why waste a 3rd pick on a back-up center? That would have been a terrible move by Hickey. Turner was the better pick imo because he has the potential to fill a bigger need (OG/OT) than picking someone to back up a pro bowl center. It sucks now, but its all in hindsight. Anything can seem better in hindsight. Losing Pouncey is going to hurt us . . . and especially against two division teams.

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    ^ LMAO this is only funny because a few days ago Sparky said he expects starters in the first 3 rounds yet he wanted a C to back up Pouncey in the 3rd

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    This isn't the NBA. In the NFL, I think a good GM should be able to give a team at least 3 rookies that contribute (assuming a normal allotment of picks). 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders should all contribute. If one of those guys busts or is still developing, then one of your other picks should've come through.

    That goes for pretty much every team. And especially for us with all our holes.

    If Landry doesn't at least start as a WR3, then we could've made better use of the pick. Carlos Hyde would've easily been our starting RB if we just kept our original 2nd round pick and took him. So I'll always compare our rookies against players the GM could've drafted.

    If Billy Turner doesn't start and a guy like Gabe Jackson ends up starting for his team (he went later in the 3rd), then Turner wasn't a good pick - especially since we gave up a 4th to move up for him - and also because Shelley Smith isn't exactly a world beater. We also took Turner ahead of Tre Mason.

    So right there we have two guys drafted early and drafted over other guys who I think could've easily started for us.

    As for JaWuan James, I already said I thought it was stupid for Hickey not to fill RT in FA. Everyone knows he was a reach at 19. He'll start but that's not even enough. He has to start AND then we have to hope we didn't pass up on elite players that went after him or that he's elite himself.

    For our round 4 pick, I'll be curious to see how Pierre Desir does for the Browns. Desir was ranked higher and went two picks after we took Walk Aikens.

    This is how you judge GMs. I don't care as much about fit/need/system. Did you get the best talent on the board or not?

    Because a decade later, nobody's going to remember that you needed LB depth and special teams help. They're just going to remember that you took Eddie f'n Moore over Anquan Boldin!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    ^^^ right, depends on position.......

    .........a kicker in the 5th round sure as hell better start and be damn good.....cough, cough Sturgis.

    RBs should perform right away.

    QBs, WRs, DBs can take more time to develop.

    LBs and OL (especially guards) should perform right away if drafted early.

    DL can take some time. See Paul Soliai who we all thought was a bust early on.

    But going back to our recent draft class, I like Jarvis Landry as much as anybody, but he sure as hell wasn't a need as much as RB. In other words, I'm much more comfortable if we have to make do with Rishard and Gibson and Binns if we don't have Landry.....................than having to make do with Miller, Moreno, and DT because we didn't draft Carlos Hyde.

    Hell, I think our RBs are so bad that we could've drafted Hyde and Mason in rounds 2 and 3 if Landry/Turner weren't going to be definite starters. It's balancing BPAs with needs.

    That's a little extreme but........just saying.........RB would have been a good position to fill through the draft for us.........would've been easy to get immediate impact and clear upgrade over Miller/DT (without having to spend on Moreno).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitekimbo View Post
    Stalk much?

    Lol you can wait for me to deny your comments before wasting your time searching for my old posts.

    I most certainly stand by those comments. I don't think that it's too much to ask that GMs get production out of their early round rookies.

    I also think Hickey should've insured the Pouncey risk, and that Marcus Martin in round 3 would've been a solid way to do that.

    Now......that's NOT BECAUSE I KNEW POUNCEY WAS GOING TO HURT HIS HIP.

    It's because Pouncey was ALREADY A SUSPENSION RISK WHEN HICKEY GOT HERE. I think it's safe to say that the NFL is aware of the Wells Report, which means they saw those texts, which means they know about Pouncey's drug use, which means that Pouncey will be facing random drug tests going forward. Now I don't know about you, but I sure as hell wouldn't expect Pouncey to be smart enough to not get pinched sooner or later. AND THUS THE NEED TO INSURE POUNCEY WITH BETTER CENTER DEPTH.

    This isn't rocket science WK. It's okay to question our GMs. Maybe you should try it some time. Lol you were defending Ireland until the bitter end. Now Hickey is infallible for you? What......did you order a Hickey jersey already???

  11. #11
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    I'll say this in his defense, Martin was one of my favorite O-lineman in the draft and probably would have played G for us or C when Pouncey got hurt.

    mfw the Miami Dolphins

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KodytheKing View Post
    I'll say this in his defense, Martin was one of my favorite O-lineman in the draft and probably would have played G for us or C when Pouncey got hurt.
    Exactly.........a C/G type might have made more sense.............especially given Pouncey's suspension risk...........than a T/G type.

    I'm not trying to kill Hickey on this, but he's an unproven, rookie GM. He was like our 4th choice. He got no consideration from the Bucs. So I think it's only natural to question some of his moves.

    He moved up pretty damn high for Billy Turner.......very early 3rd.........and I think he gave away a 4th rounder to get up there, right? And he passed on the #1 rated center.........who could've also competed at guard and insured against a Poucey suspension............and he also passed on Tre Mason there when our RBs behind Moreno were the worst RB core in the NFL last year.

    Again.....just saying these are reasonable concerns for Dolfans to have.

    (Not to mention going into the draft with your hand forced to reach for a RT in round 1.)
    Last edited by Sparky; 06-26-2014 at 07:01 AM.

  13. #13
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    Mike Pouncey and Knowshon Moreno both have surgery.

    But you're contradicting yourself, do you want starters in the first 3 rounds or do you want a back up for Pouncey. (Regardless of his personality and/or injury)? You can't have it both ways, whichever one works better for your argument at the time.

    And yea Kody, he was a solid player. If he would have dropped to the 4th, it's too good not to take but them not gettin a Pouncey replacement/back up in the draft leads me to believe they have every intention of resigning Pouncey long term

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    Exactly.........a C/G type might have made more sense.............especially given Pouncey's suspension risk...........than a T/G type.

    I'm not trying to kill Hickey on this, but he's an unproven, rookie GM. He was like our 4th choice. He got no consideration from the Bucs. So I think it's only natural to question some of his moves.

    He moved up pretty damn high for Billy Turner.......very early 3rd.........and I think he gave away a 4th rounder to get up there, right? And he passed on the #1 rated center.........who could've also competed at guard and insured against a Poucey suspension............and he also passed on Tre Mason there when our RBs behind Moreno were the worst RB core in the NFL last year.

    Again.....just saying these are reasonable concerns for Dolfans to have.

    (Not to mention going into the draft with your hand forced to reach for a RT in round 1.)
    Ok I still can't get over this. Everyone complains about a GM when he tries to fix everything in FA, cause everyone points out that teams like the Packers never add players in FA. Ireland tried to do that all the time. But now that Hickey tried to do a nice balance and he's getting killed for it. You can't fix everything in FA, this team has proven that over the years. There are very few teams that can go into the draft with no glaring holes and just draft BPA. It just doesn't happen. There was no way for Hickey to fix the entire O-line in FA without spending all of our money on the O-line. I remember looking at all the contracts guys that were just RT's or OG's and they were getting ridiculous contracts.

    Turner was a player that was ranked in that round and I thought he was good value. Yes I liked Martin more but I also liked Morgan Moses in the first and he dropped. Our rankings have no importance. Yes we traded up for Turner but it was after trading back a few times to gain more picks. You're constantly pointing out that RB's are easy to find, so why should we have spent a high pick on a RB if they're easy to find? And Lamar Miller was a 4th round pick and according to your logic a 4th rounder is still expected to contribute a lot. This coaching staff seems to think that Miller really really fits this system and before last season everyone was talking about how talented Miller was, so I still have some faith in him.

    Also Hickey WAS considered for the Tampa job. He got an interview but the Bucs didn't announce it until well afterwards.

    mfw the Miami Dolphins

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KodytheKing View Post
    Ok I still can't get over this. Everyone complains about a GM when he tries to fix everything in FA, cause everyone points out that teams like the Packers never add players in FA. Ireland tried to do that all the time. But now that Hickey tried to do a nice balance and he's getting killed for it. You can't fix everything in FA, this team has proven that over the years. There are very few teams that can go into the draft with no glaring holes and just draft BPA. It just doesn't happen. There was no way for Hickey to fix the entire O-line in FA without spending all of our money on the O-line. I remember looking at all the contracts guys that were just RT's or OG's and they were getting ridiculous contracts.

    Turner was a player that was ranked in that round and I thought he was good value. Yes I liked Martin more but I also liked Morgan Moses in the first and he dropped. Our rankings have no importance. Yes we traded up for Turner but it was after trading back a few times to gain more picks. You're constantly pointing out that RB's are easy to find, so why should we have spent a high pick on a RB if they're easy to find? And Lamar Miller was a 4th round pick and according to your logic a 4th rounder is still expected to contribute a lot. This coaching staff seems to think that Miller really really fits this system and before last season everyone was talking about how talented Miller was, so I still have some faith in him.

    Also Hickey WAS considered for the Tampa job. He got an interview but the Bucs didn't announce it until well afterwards.
    RT Austin Howard's contract was more years but on a per year basis, I'm pretty sure it was close to what Finnegan got. I haven't looked up Breno Giancomo or any other top RT FA contract but they definitely could've been had if Hickey had spent less on DB.......in other words, maybe stay with Carroll/Patterson/Clemmons.......and see what Jamar Taylor has......and just make sure you fix OL and RB.

    And on RB.......I never said it was easy to find RBs "anywhere". I said it was a good position to draft. Yes, ideally you could wait until the mid to late rounds.......but the 3rd is a mid round and Tre Mason was available. The 2nd would've been a little early but Carlos Hyde could've proven to be worth that pick.

    And I don't care what Phibin says about Miller. Philbin has zero credibility with me after "the collapse". Miller didn't look good for any system. And btw, Philbin also said DT looked good in OTAs so let's take this with a grain of salt. You know as well as I do that we're looking weak at RB right now.

    Overall, I'm not looking to kill Hickey here. Just posing some questions/concerns.

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