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View Poll Results: What's the Best Direction for the Leafs?

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  • Complete Rebuild

    6 37.50%
  • Slight Re-tooling

    10 62.50%
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  1. #1
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    Re-Tool or Rebuild?

    The events that unfold with Leafs management over the next few weeks will likely telegraph their long & short term intentions. If, at the time of the draft, they keep Nonis & or Carlyle, plus Kadri & Gardiner, then it would look like they are going to re-tool this team and build around what they deem to be the core.

    However, if Shanny decides that after looking in the cupboards, he sees not much optimism for sustained long-term success, he may replace both Nonis & Carlyle, as well as gut the current roster...save for a select few he deems the future core.

    So the question here is this- do you feel the Leafs are close to being a legit all-around team that is ready to contend...thus only needing some re-tooling? Or are you of the opinion that this current organization needs a full & complete purging (top-bottom) in order to become a successful on-ice product?

    IMO, a little tweaking and re-tooling only makes us slightly better...maybe we squeak into the playoffs, only to make 1st round exits. If feel this team is far from being a contending team...that they need much more than just a #1 C & #2 d-man (which depletes our assets/depth anyways). If they did a proper rebuild they could truly establish an identity, and draft/bring in players that fit the system they are running with. No more of this patchwork garbage we've seen. Next year's draft is a stud class, whereas unless they draft top 3-5 in this year's draft, it's a crap shoot as to whether or not they get a legit 1st line, elite type NHL player.

    If any team can afford to do a proper re-build, it's the Leafs. 95% of other franchises would loose their fan base if they committed to a complete re-building plan, as the losing takes it's toll after 2-3 years. But the Leaf could win 10 games all year and still sell out...us fans are just that numb & will still buy tickets.

    I don't want to see another year or two of no playoffs, but I also don't want to keep watching this team fail in the same areas & tangibles year-after-year-after-year (poor drafting, poor player assessment, poor systems, poor leadership, poor effort and discipline). The Leafs have some solid pieces and might not be that far off if they did some purging...look @ Colorado...few saw them as a top 3 NHL team this during the pre-season. Most expected them to be better and more intense with Roy behind the bench, but they developed a system and committed to it. Leafs need to follow suit (LA, Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Anaheim).

    Thoughts.....
    Last edited by passengershawn; 04-14-2014 at 12:40 PM. Reason: grammar

  2. #2
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    I highly doubt Shanny would start be demanding a full re-build and this team is just about finished a 4-5 year re-build as we speak. Leiweke also hates losing and we've all seen what how Edmonton's re-build is going.. The problem with this team is that we haven't had the assets needed to make improvements. We either traded our draft picks or drafted poorly and it really slowed down the process.We basically had to either trade or sign every main piece on this team. Now we have a ton of pieces and specs coming along that we can either be patient with and add them to our group (Chicago style) or use some guys to improve things we can't get in free agency. As for Colorado, you can see how a coaching change can make all the difference, and this team needs a new system big time, because the one that worked last season got exposed big time this year.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaysLeafs98;28315038[B
    ]I highly doubt Shanny would start be demanding a full re-build and this team is just about finished a 4-5 year re-build as we speak[/B]. Leiweke also hates losing and we've all seen what how Edmonton's re-build is going.. The problem with this team is that we haven't had the assets needed to make improvements. We either traded our draft picks or drafted poorly and it really slowed down the process.We basically had to either trade or sign every main piece on this team. Now we have a ton of pieces and specs coming along that we can either be patient with and add them to our group (Chicago style) or use some guys to improve things we can't get in free agency. As for Colorado, you can see how a coaching change can make all the difference, and this team needs a new system big time, because the one that worked last season got exposed big time this year.
    I agree with that, yet in retrospect...did we really spend 4-5 quality years rebuilding properly? Burke applied the "rebuild on the run" principal, and that turned out awesome. As good as Kessel is, that trade is ALWAYS going to haunt us. Imagine having Seguin (solid two-way center at the most important forward position) or Taylor Hall (EVERY bit as dynamic as Kessel, and much more willing to compete hard) AND Dougie Hamilton? That trade set us back in the rebuild process.

    I'd MUCH rather have a #1 C that can play both ends of the rink (and score as much as Phil) AND a #3 Dman with skill and edge....than an enigmatic scoring winger who plays with half the effort.

    So would you consider this scenario...trade Kessel as part of a package for Shea Weber...and draft that Nickolaj Ehlers kid from Denmark (his scouting report is basically a carbon-copy of Kessel, only about 20 pounds on the light side...but he's only 18). Then trade Dion, Kadri, Gardiner, Franson, etc... and go get a solid #2 Dman and a guy like ROR or Stastny?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by passengershawn View Post
    I agree with that, yet in retrospect...did we really spend 4-5 quality years rebuilding properly? Burke applied the "rebuild on the run" principal, and that turned out awesome. As good as Kessel is, that trade is ALWAYS going to haunt us. Imagine having Seguin (solid two-way center at the most important forward position) or Taylor Hall (EVERY bit as dynamic as Kessel, and much more willing to compete hard) AND Dougie Hamilton? That trade set us back in the rebuild process.

    I'd MUCH rather have a #1 C that can play both ends of the rink (and score as much as Phil) AND a #3 Dman with skill and edge....than an enigmatic scoring winger who plays with half the effort.

    So would you consider this scenario...trade Kessel as part of a package for Shea Weber...and draft that Nickolaj Ehlers kid from Denmark (his scouting report is basically a carbon-copy of Kessel, only about 20 pounds on the light side...but he's only 18). Then trade Dion, Kadri, Gardiner, Franson, etc... and go get a solid #2 Dman and a guy like ROR or Stastny?
    We've been through this scenario before, I think most of us would accept a trade of Kessel for Weber hands down, but you have to keep Dion if you make that trade. The reason for making the trade has to be to give the Leafs an elite pair that can shut down anybody (Dion moves back to strong side, making him more physical, Webers' skill eases the load, plus they've played together before). If you pull off that trade, you can use the rest of the Defense as trade bait, including Rielly if it get's you a Tavares kind of player.

  5. #5
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    Weber For Kessel

    and then...

    Kadri, Reimer, Rielly, Gardiner, 1st
    for
    Tavares, Cizikas

    sign Penner (or another big winger)

    Lupul-Tavares-Clarkson (Clarkson get's a lot more rebound opportunities with those 2 guys shooting)
    JVR-Bozak-Penner
    Hartikainen-Holland-D'Amigo
    Komarov-Cizikas-Ashton

    Phaneuf-Weber
    Gunnerson-Granberg
    Percy-Franson (or RH upgrade)
    Brennan

    Bernier
    Macintyre

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaysLeafs98 View Post
    Weber For Kessel

    and then...

    Kadri, Reimer, Rielly, Gardiner, 1st
    for
    Tavares, Cizikas

    sign Penner (or another big winger)

    Lupul-Tavares-Clarkson (Clarkson get's a lot more rebound opportunities with those 2 guys shooting)
    JVR-Bozak-Penner
    Hartikainen-Holland-D'Amigo
    Komarov-Cizikas-Ashton

    Phaneuf-Weber
    Gunnerson-Granberg
    Percy-Franson (or RH upgrade)
    Brennan

    Bernier
    Macintyre
    I like this roster...I'd have to check the cap #'s to make sure it works, but it seems good on paper, and has some solid leadership in place. A couple things though...trading Rielly is going to be a mistake, but I guess if it gets you Tavares...you gotta eat the potential of the kid. Morgan is gonna be a very good Dman in this league...I see him being a Scott Niedermayer light version...maybe not the overall leadership, but a guy who scores 50 points, plays great D and is very intelligent.

    As for the Kessel<>Weber deal...IMHO, ther is no way in the name of sanity Nashville does that straight up unless they knew Shea wants out. He's signed long term, and Kessel is just not near his overall value to a team. It would have to be Kessel and Gardiner...and that might not do it either...again...unless Shea indicates he wants out.

    A bigger question might be this: If Shea and Barry Trotz had a good player<>coach relationship, do you use that as the fuel to a trade and pull the trigger on Carlyle?

  7. #7
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    I think the big argument against Carlyle is the way the team has sometimes made the impression of not responding to the coach anymore. If that was the case, heīs burned. Iīm not quite sure though.

    I totally agree with the Kessel vs. Seguin+Hamilton argument. Two blue chippers on the minus side means we didnīt get the best of this deal, clearly, even though I donīt agree with the notion of Kessel being a lazy player. Heīs terrific. But heīs not two great players, heīs one. Thatīs well in the past anyway...

    Leafs need re-tooling badly. Their lack of depth at both ends of the ice has been well documented. You have one of the best lines in hockey, but then what? A lot of inconsistency with Kadri, Lupul and Raymond and a lot of underperforming with Clarkson and Kulemin.

    You canīt just blow everything up though. The Leafs star players are still mostly young. Look at San Jose. Their cup window with Marleau, Boyle, Havlat and Thornton is closing fast. This year they have the secondary scoring and defensive stability from the young guns. So it might be their year!

    This could be the Leafs 3 to 5 years from now. And Phaneuf wonīt be 36 in 5 years. So letīs not panic with our core here. Trade Phaneuf, Kessel and two 1sts for Weber and Tavares (highly hypothetically, of course) you have minor to decent improvements to your top end talent, but you still have no depth and no future. Trade Phaneuf and Kessel for 3 1sts, you will lose for 5 years and waist their midterm potential for who-knows-who. Connor McDavid? Maybe. Another Patrik Stephan? Might as well turn out to be...

    Keep Phaneuf, add some help and just wait what our specs can do. Look out for Granberg guys, I tell ya. Could be Phaneufs guy for next year, who knows? Heīs got the goods!
    Last edited by Showt1me; 04-14-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by passengershawn View Post
    I like this roster...I'd have to check the cap #'s to make sure it works, but it seems good on paper, and has some solid leadership in place. A couple things though...trading Rielly is going to be a mistake, but I guess if it gets you Tavares...you gotta eat the potential of the kid. Morgan is gonna be a very good Dman in this league...I see him being a Scott Niedermayer light version...maybe not the overall leadership, but a guy who scores 50 points, plays great D and is very intelligent.

    As for the Kessel<>Weber deal...IMHO, ther is no way in the name of sanity Nashville does that straight up unless they knew Shea wants out. He's signed long term, and Kessel is just not near his overall value to a team. It would have to be Kessel and Gardiner...and that might not do it either...again...unless Shea indicates he wants out.

    A bigger question might be this: If Shea and Barry Trotz had a good player<>coach relationship, do you use that as the fuel to a trade and pull the trigger on Carlyle?
    Scoring trumps defense almost every time in a trade (Look at JVR-Schenn) and I think it would have to be a 1 for 1. And like you said I normally wouldn't trade Rielly, but for Tavares and if the Weber deal was done first, I do it for sure. Kids gonna be good, but for a potential 90-100 point guy every season I take that trade and run. That roster gives you about 9 million in cap space, even overpaying Penner, and Franson, and sending down scrubs like Orr, and buying out Gleason.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showt1me View Post
    I think the big argument against Carlyle is the way the team has sometimes made the impression of not responding to the coach anymore. If that was the case, heīs burned. Iīm not quite sure though.

    I totally agree with the Kessel vs. Seguin+Hamilton argument. Two blue chippers on the minus side means we didnīt get the best of this deal, clearly, even though I donīt agree with the notion of Kessel being a lazy player. Heīs terrific. But heīs not two great players, heīs one. Thatīs well in the past anyway...

    Leafs need re-tooling badly. Their lack of depth at both ends of the ice has been well documented. You have one of the best lines in hockey, but then what? A lot of inconsistency with Kadri, Lupul and Raymond and a lot of underperforming with Clarkson and Kulemin.

    You canīt just blow everything up though. The Leafs star players are still mostly young. Look at San Jose. Their cup window with Marleau, Boyle, Havlat and Thornton is closing fast. This year they have the secondary scoring and defensive stability from the young guns. So it might be their year!

    This could be the Leafs 3 to 5 years from now. And Phaneuf wonīt be 36 in 5 years. So letīs not panic with our core here. Trade Phaneuf, Kessel and two 1sts for Weber and Tavares (highly hypothetically, of course) you have minor to decent improvements to your top end talent, but you still have no depth and no future. Trade Phaneuf and Kessel for 3 1sts, you will lose for 5 years and waist their midterm potential for who-knows-who. Connor McDavid? Maybe. Another Patrik Stephan? Might as well turn out to be...

    Keep Phaneuf, add some help and just wait what our specs can do. Look out for Granberg guys, I tell ya. Could be Phaneufs guy for next year, who knows? Heīs got the goods!
    I agree with all of it except the Boston trade. Nobody expected the Leafs to finish second last the year Boston got Seguin, and Boston screwed it up by trading him to Dallas. So if Loui Erikson goes to FA, they'll have Hamilton and Jarred Knight to show for Kessel.. We win that one big time.

  10. #10
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    Retool. We've done the rebuild, so now we have assets to help us retool.

    I like the idea of the Kessel for Weber idea. In the press conference today, they kept mentioning the climate of the dressing room. Obviously, I'm an outsider, but looking at Kessel's demeanour on the bench and on the ice (ie. the throwing the towel on the penalty box cam), there's a problem there.

    I've suggested this for a couple years, but I don't think it's been probable until now...

    What about Kessel for Tavares? If NYI gets their new owner, making a splash with one of the top US players could work. Similar stats, similar age. Tavares' selling points are more appealing IMO, but coming off an injury evens things out a bit. More moves would need to be made after this (@ centre especially), but this would definitely be a starting point for the culture of our team.

    Trading Phaneuf is an option, but it's so hard to replace his minutes. If he's not wearing the "C', maybe some of the pressure would be off. Thoughts?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by clark17 View Post
    Retool. We've done the rebuild, so now we have assets to help us retool.

    I like the idea of the Kessel for Weber idea. In the press conference today, they kept mentioning the climate of the dressing room. Obviously, I'm an outsider, but looking at Kessel's demeanour on the bench and on the ice (ie. the throwing the towel on the penalty box cam), there's a problem there.

    I've suggested this for a couple years, but I don't think it's been probable until now...

    What about Kessel for Tavares? If NYI gets their new owner, making a splash with one of the top US players could work. Similar stats, similar age. Tavares' selling points are more appealing IMO, but coming off an injury evens things out a bit. More moves would need to be made after this (@ centre especially), but this would definitely be a starting point for the culture of our team.

    Trading Phaneuf is an option, but it's so hard to replace his minutes. If he's not wearing the "C', maybe some of the pressure would be off. Thoughts?
    Kessel for Tavares doesn't really help us unless we get a D-man some other way. We'd get deeper down the middle but lose our scoring from RW and have the same defense. People do look way too much into the "C". It doesn't mean much in today's game other than the media responsibilities and charity work. They usually just give it to the best player on most teams anyways to highlight their stars.

  12. #12
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    They should rebuild,however retool is better choice and it's possible.
    Kessel for Weber,I like that.

    John Tavares for Kadri,Reimer,Dion Pheneuf,Franson,1st rd,3rd picks

    Works,bc Islanders are way under the cap and they have 2 bring their salary 2 the floor.
    Forget about Reilly and Gardiner,they aren't going no where,pretty good source inside the management has talked 2 Bob Mckenzie,those 2 players are here 2 stay for long haul.

    “The pleasure of rooting for Goliath is that you can expect to win. The pleasure of rooting for David is that, while you don’t know what to expect, you stand at least a chance of being inspired.”

  13. #13
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    Rebuild. There never was a rebuild here, despite what some may think. Dealing away two top picks is not a "rebuild" in any capacity.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by halladay View Post
    rebuild. There never was a rebuild here, despite what some may think. Dealing away two top picks is not a "rebuild" in any capacity.
    bam!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Rebuild. There never was a rebuild here, despite what some may think. Dealing away two top picks is not a "rebuild" in any capacity.
    A rebuild now gives the impression that everybody thinks losing is okay... We all saw how mad we were in the dying weeks this year, you really want another 5 years of that?

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